Alcoholics Anonymous & south park

[AKR]

i'm watching a south park right now that's making fun of AA. i've always been bothered by the fact that these programs are centered around god. how can the government require that certain people attend meetings in programs that involve religion, and require that you believe in god in order to pass that program? how can these groups get money from the government to run religious based programs?

let's look at the steps:

http://www.alcohol-drug-treatment.ne..._programs.html

# We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable.

# We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

# We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understand him.

# We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

# We admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

# We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

# We humbly asked Him to remove these shortcomings.

# We made a list of all the persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

# We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

# We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

# We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understand him, praying only for knowledge of His will and the power to carry that out.

# Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

[All Business]

"As we understand him"

There's the answer. It's so blatantly religious and an attack on personal responisbility and competence it's almost sickening to read but they can get away with it if they don't explicitly mention any religion.

Lucky we have South Park to spread the good word

[AKR]

Originally Posted by All Business

"As we understand him"

There's the answer. It's so blatantly religious and an attack on personal responisbility and competence it's almost sickening to read but they can get away with it if they don't explicitly mention any religion.

Lucky we have South Park to spread the good word

technically, it's still religious. it doesn't matter whether they mention a specific religion or not. making it a general theistic statement is still religious. it requires that you accept theism. anything that requires you to have religious beliefs or simply uses religion in general is a breach of seperation of church and state.


but i agree about the attack on personal respsonsibility, etc. i think it's a bad way of going about it. rather than draw on one's own power, or seeking help from physical, real beings, they want you to draw on the power of their imaginary creation. this doesn't seem like something the government should be or can legally be sponsoring.

[HELIX35]

That south park episode actually does a fantastic job of exposing alcoholics.

Disease my ass

[ElderJefferson]

Originally Posted by HELIX35

That south park episode actually does a fantastic job of exposing alcoholics.

Disease my ass

I'm not exactly sure what the rant is in this thread concerning AA (whether it's the fact that God is involved in the process or whether it's the fact that government is), but if you read the origins of AA, God was instrumental in the dude's life. And AA is doing a good work in my opinion.

As far as alcoholism is concerned, it is both a disease and a very strong habit to break.

[Cramerica]

Originally Posted by AKR

i'm watching a south park right now that's making fun of AA. i've always been bothered by the fact that these programs are centered around god. how can the government require that certain people attend meetings in programs that involve religion, and require that you believe in god in order to pass that program? how can these groups get money from the government to run religious based programs?

let's look at the steps:

http://www.alcohol-drug-treatment.ne..._programs.html

Where is this AA?

Myself personally was ordered to attend several AA meetings a few years ago and there was absolutely no mention of God or any other religion at all.

But maybe they differ from AA to AA?

[HELIX35]

Originally Posted by ElderJefferson

I'm not exactly sure what the rant is in this thread concerning AA (whether it's the fact that God is involved in the process or whether it's the fact that government is), but if you read the origins of AA, God was instrumental in the dude's life. And AA is doing a good work in my opinion.

It wasn't addressing AA, but alcoholism.

Originally Posted by ElderJefferson

As far as alcoholism is concerned, it is both a disease and a very strong habit to break.

It is a hard habit to break. It is not a diease.

[ElderJefferson]

Originally Posted by HELIX35

It is a hard habit to break. It is not a diease.

Scientists have discovered that certain individuals have a higher rate of becoming alcoholics than others based on genetics.

[HELIX35]

Originally Posted by ElderJefferson

Scientists have discovered that certain individuals have a higher rate of becoming alcohols than others based on genetics.

See this? See what I'm doing? Not drinking.

Unless you can show me alcohol physically FORCES your arm to raise it to your mouth, it's not a disease.

[Guardian]

Alcoholism is a disease my fathers one and goes to AA at least twice a week. Anyone that thinks otherwise needs to do some research.

[HELIX35]

Originally Posted by Guardian

Alcoholism is a disease my fathers one and goes to AA at least twice a week. Anyone that thinks otherwise needs to do some research.

So was my Grandfather. He went to AA for years until he realized HE was in control. Alcoholism does not force you to drink.

[TheLasher]

Originally Posted by HELIX35

It is a hard habit to break. It is not a diease.

If you looked at the effects on the Native American community when alcohol was first introduced you'd see it was definely more than just a habit.

Alcoholism does not force you to drink.

Yea and crack doesn't force you to smoke and herion doesn't force you to shoot up.

[HELIX35]

Originally Posted by TheLasher

If you looked at the effects on the Native American community when alcohol was first introduced you'd see it was definely more than just a habit.

Yea and crack doesn't force you to smoke and herion doesn't force you to shoot up.

No, it doesn't. You willingly inject yourself or raise the bottle to your lips. It is a choice.

[Guardian]

There are people out there who have a hard time making it minute by minute without alcohol. It has a strong effect on the brain and body that over time gets much stronger. Ive heard many people say alcohol is far worse then heroin or anything else.

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by HELIX35

No, it doesn't. You willingly inject yourself or raise the bottle to your lips. It is a choice.

Yes, but once you become an alcoholic your brain is literally rewired to expect more alcohol and when you do not get it you become very, very distressed. One of the wonderful things about the brain is that it can create new connections between neurons, so once you develop a habit, your mind really has changed. At that point, even the ability to choose not to drink becomes difficult.

The mind and body are not separate entities. It's not simply a matter of making up one's mind to stop drinking. It's far more difficult than that, and that's why so many people struggle with alcoholism and other addictions.

[JAGERBOY]

Originally Posted by HELIX35

No, it doesn't. You willingly inject yourself or raise the bottle to your lips. It is a choice.

I think you would be better off to argue that its an addiction rather than a disease.

[tabloid]

Originally Posted by HELIX35

No, it doesn't. You willingly inject yourself or raise the bottle to your lips. It is a choice.

you obviously have never seen an addict approach bottom.

[WCC]

Originally Posted by ElderJefferson

Scientists have discovered that certain individuals have a higher rate of becoming alcoholics than others based on genetics.

yeah, i heard about that.
it's the same for most drugs. genetics are partly responsible for addictive personalities.

Originally Posted by HELIX35

See this? See what I'm doing? Not drinking.

Unless you can show me alcohol physically FORCES your arm to raise it to your mouth, it's not a disease.

google definitions for "disease":
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...e+Search&meta=

"A condition of the body in which there is incorrect function due to heredity, infection, diet, or environment."

"A deleterious change in the body's condition in response to destabilizing factors, such as nutrition, chemicals, or biological agents."

google definitions for "addiction":
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...G=Search&meta=

"A chronic, relapsing disease characterized by compulsive drug-seeking and abuse and by long-lasting chemical changes in the brain. [1]"

"Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologic disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving."

"A compulsive physiological craving for a habit-forming substance, addiction is a chronic and progressive disease usually characterized by physiological symptoms upon withdrawal. The term "dependence" is often used synonymously to avoid the pejorative connotations of addiction."

addiction most certainly is a disease.

alcohol addiction is one of the worst addictions there is. withdrawal can be fatal.

[Rambo26]

theres a great Penn+Teller episode on AA
part 1, 2, 3

[honeybbqgrundle]

AA just seems to say what every cynical person says about drug addictions: Stop doing it.

Do they give medical treatment for this disease? Seems like they just prescribe Jesus and hope it all gets better, a common theme among religious people.

[TheNextEpisde]

It just sounds like the disease angle is some cheap cop-out so they can feel better about how hard they have fallen from where they used to be. Maybe it is a disease but then it can be argued that almost every life changing habit, good and bad, is a disease. Bodybuildingitis anyone?

The only disease of alcoholism is stuff like cirrhosis, rectum cancer, etc.

I think AA is a nice step. Alcoholics will have weak willpower so its best that you use excuses to give them reasons why they are alcoholics ("It's not your fault, alcoholism is a disease") and then with the promise of a higher power to give them support ("Jesus is with you") so alcoholics feel like they are being watched over and therefore, can contain their urges easier. Then you have the support groups to solidify the previous two points.

Doesn't mean its not addicting though but that does not a disease make.

[AKR]

Originally Posted by Cramerica

Where is this AA?

Myself personally was ordered to attend several AA meetings a few years ago and there was absolutely no mention of God or any other religion at all.

But maybe they differ from AA to AA?

dunno where this specific one is, but i looked around at multiple links and they all seemed the same. apparently not, but i am sure that at least, SOME of them sponsored by the government involve god.

[UltimateNYC]

Originally Posted by tabloid

you obviously have never seen an addict approach bottom.

And what does it being addictive have to do with it being a disease? HELIX is exactly right.

edit: Calling Alcoholism a disease is just another part of the pussification of society.

[timmy47]

"an impairment of the normal state of the living animal or plant body or one of its parts that interrupts or modifies the performance of the vital functions and is a response to environmental factors (as malnutrition, industrial hazards, or climate), to specific infective agents (as worms, bacteria, or viruses), to inherent defects of the organism (as genetic anomalies), or to combinations of these factors"

from this i would say alcoholism is not a disease. although it can lead to diseases. one of the causes of a disease is malnutrition. i would think drugs would go under that. but the addiction part is not a disease itself. they call it a disease because of how people can react to addiction. some people cant stop, its taken over them. so it seems like it acts as a disease but really it isnt. but the addiction leads to other problems like not eating right or some other type of harm which leads to diseases. is love a disease? when you love someone you basically have all these hormones like endorphines going off in your body. essentially you get addicted to that person. but is it a disease? i would say no. addiction is not a disease. its a normal body funtion. it happens to everyone with something at one time or another. its just how our body works.

[All Business]

Originally Posted by ElderJefferson

I'm not exactly sure what the rant is in this thread concerning AA (whether it's the fact that God is involved in the process or whether it's the fact that government is), but if you read the origins of AA, God was instrumental in the dude's life. And AA is doing a good work in my opinion.

As far as alcoholism is concerned, it is both a disease and a very strong habit to break.

The problem is that people can be forced to go to AA by the government. Even if AA is doing a good job and god was instrumental in the dude's life, the fact that god is involved means that people shouldn't be forced to go there.

Originally Posted by ElderJefferson

Scientists have discovered that certain individuals have a higher rate of becoming alcoholics than others based on genetics.

That doesn't mean it's a disease, just that certain genes predispose you to certain behaviours.

Originally Posted by Fidelis

The mind and body are not separate entities. It's not simply a matter of making up one's mind to stop drinking. It's far more difficult than that, and that's why so many people struggle with alcoholism and other addictions.

It is a matter of making up one's mind only that decision is a very hard one to do that's why so many people struggle.

Originally Posted by TheNextEpisde

I think AA is a nice step. Alcoholics will have weak willpower so its best that you use excuses to give them reasons why they are alcoholics ("It's not your fault, alcoholism is a disease") and then with the promise of a higher power to give them support ("Jesus is with you") so alcoholics feel like they are being watched over and therefore, can contain their urges easier. Then you have the support groups to solidify the previous two points.

Doesn't mean its not addicting though but that does not a disease make.

AA might be effective by providing a scape goat for the alcoholism but ultimately i think it would be better if these kind of programs tried to "empower" the individual rather thanmake them reliant on something/one else.

[ElderJefferson]

Originally Posted by All Business

The problem is that people can be forced to go to AA by the government.

I see now. Yeah, good point. The government shouldn't "force" anyone into a particular rehab program (especially if it is based upon religious ideas). I have no problem with them forcing the individual to seek help, however.

[1dayIWillBeBig]

AA is simply replacing one addiction (alcohol) with another (religion).

[Guardian]

What do you guys think about trials? Dont we have people swear on the bible before testifying. Do you feel that should be tossed out the window? If we dont have people swear to go to tell the truth, who are they going to swear to? May sound sillu but really think about the impact on law it could have.

[Persecuted]

Originally Posted by Fidelis

Yes, but once you become an alcoholic your brain is literally rewired to expect more alcohol and when you do not get it you become very, very distressed. One of the wonderful things about the brain is that it can create new connections between neurons, so once you develop a habit, your mind really has changed. At that point, even the ability to choose not to drink becomes difficult.

The mind and body are not separate entities. It's not simply a matter of making up one's mind to stop drinking. It's far more difficult than that, and that's why so many people struggle with alcoholism and other addictions.

Careful Fidelis that doesn't sound like the ideas of a good materialist...

I forgot do you believe in free will or not? And no I'm not trying to start another free-will debate.

[hobbes1651]

Its interesting to hear so many people who have never been to an AA meeting discuss it. Yes it does prescribe a spiritual program to overcome addiction. It also very much plays into the idea that addiction is a disease something I personally disagree with.

If you look at the orgins of AA it started right after the failed temperance movement and was an outgrowth of the Oxford group. This group was a religious society based upon fundamentalist teachings of Jesus Christ and was about learning not to sin. It had 12 steps as a way to stop sinning. Bill W changed the 12 steps of the Oxford group to include alcohol and AA was born. It continued to grow because it was the only treatment available after the repeal of prohibition. Soon AA and the AMA became very closely connected with the AMA sending most of its researchers on the subject to meet with AA people. It has since grown and the AMA and AA are very closely tied with most of the research that is still done on addiction. (A great book covers this topic in detail "the History of Addiction and Recovery in the United States".

I take issue not with the fact that its spiritual but the fact that it pushes the idea that one has no self control. In an alcoholics or addicts life that is a huge issue but I believe recovery should be about empowering the person to take control of their lives not slamming down their throat their powerlessness.

AA I dont think is a bad thing but the entire model of addiction in this country is based on it. AA DOES work for some people, I met a man who was sober for 52 years. The entire program is not a bad thing but I disagree vehemently with its basis. However its model has now been transferred over to even recovery centers in this country. Hazelden, Betty Ford and just about any treatment center in this country (not all) are based on an institutional take on AA. They use the steps as guidelines for treatment. The problem is most of the addiction workers in this country are AA members so its unlikely it will change.

I agree with Helix here that it is about self-control and no its not a disease. If anyone wants to read the basis for the debunking of the disease myth try "The Heart of Addiction". (I saw the Penn and Teller after I wrote this.) It provides a much better model for treatment and hopefully one day it will become the staple of recovery in the US. BTW Im someone whose recovered from substance and had cancer and the former is definitely not in the same category as the later.