Running androstenedione with formastat??? has anyone debated this?

[lakevillethor]

Since androdione gets through your liver with a high affinity, has anyone debated taking old androdione with formastat? Obviously androdione can directly convert to estrogen but would the formastat be able to combat this so you would get a good amount of androdione to convert to test?
-AT

[lakevillethor]

Originally posted by lakevillethor
Since androdione gets through your liver with a high affinity, has anyone debated taking old androdione with formastat? Obviously androdione can directly convert to estrogen but would the formastat be able to combat this so you would get a good amount of androdione to convert to test?
-AT

Bump...

[pogue]

I think the question is whether or not 4oh andro is a strong enough anti-e to do the job, or even if it is truely bioavailable.

Then you get into cost vs benefit ratio.

[cutforever]

Why in God's name would you do something so childish. I thought you were the smart one who knew alot about prohormones/prosteroids, and now you go back to old andro? 4-AD converts to test 3X more compared to Androstenedione, and has a lower percentage of aromatization compared to Androstenedione. I dont think i need to tell you this, as you should know this already...but with questions like these make me wonder...

[pogue]

Originally posted by cutforever
Why in God's name would you do something so childish. I thought you were the smart one who knew alot about prohormones/prosteroids, and now you go back to old andro? 4-AD converts to test 3X more compared to Androstenedione, and has a lower percentage of aromatization compared to Androstenedione. I dont think i need to tell you this, as you should know this already...but with questions like these make me wonder...

Where are you getting these numbers?

Actually, I believe andro is more bioavailable than 4AD. The conversion rates you mention are in vitro. I wish everyone would quit quoting them as they really have no basis in reality.

[dio]

I looked into this a while back, for to see if it was worth pursuing.

If you can get the andro cheap, and by that I mean a fraction of the cost of 4AD, then you could get some strong results by megadosing ~3grams. The ceiling for conversion is much higher than you think it'd be. Pat mentioned something about this a while back.

If you're going to try it either use the formestane transdermally or skip straight to arimidex.

Good luck finding the powder cheap, I looked for a while and then figured I was just wasting my time

[Lean One]

I just don't see a point in this. sorry.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by pogue
Where are you getting these numbers?

Actually, I believe andro is more bioavailable than 4AD. The conversion rates you mention are in vitro. I wish everyone would quit quoting them as they really have no basis in reality.

Eastern Michigan did a carefully controlled study that found a dose of 100mg 4-AD raised testosterone 3 times higher than 100mg androstenedione

This is not to say that androstenedione at very high dosages might not raise testosterone quite well. I am sure it does.

I have seen blood results (confidential ones) that show that at very high dosages of androstenedion the testosterone / estrogen ratio actually is pretty normal. This is in contrast to lower dosages where e raises much more than t. apparently aromatase reaches a saturation point at the high dosages while 17beta-HSD does not. I am referring to multiple gram dosages here

So don't think you know it all. I certainly don't know it all and i have more prohormone facts in my brain than any of you whackers!! the more you know the more you realize you don't know

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by dio
I looked into this a while back, for to see if it was worth pursuing.

If you can get the andro cheap, and by that I mean a fraction of the cost of 4AD, then you could get some strong results by megadosing ~3grams. The ceiling for conversion is much higher than you think it'd be. Pat mentioned something about this a while back.

somebody remembered

BTW, the ceiling may even be higher for adione than it is for 4-AD. I have never seen test levels go as high on 4-AD than i have with adione. I have no reason to lie here, in fact 4-AD is my patented product and it competes with adione so i probably shouldn't even share this

[pogue]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
Eastern Michigan did a carefully controlled study that found a dose of 100mg 4-AD raised testosterone 3 times higher than 100mg androstenedione

What route of admininstration?

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold

So don't think you know it all. I certainly don't know it all and i have more prohormone facts in my brain than any of you whackers!! the more you know the more you realize you don't know

The only point I'm trying to make is that everyone quotes the 15% conversion rates for 4AD like they are gospel. I really don't think its as cut and dry as that.

[cutforever]

Pogue...I KNOW you know tons about this when it comes to this topic...but just for my knowledge can you prove to me that andro is more bioavailable with proven studies? I still have yet to see someone who has better results off of Androdione compared to 4-AD. The rate of conversion for Androdione on numerous sites prove that its rate is 5.61%. For 4-AD it's 15.76% (Roughly 3X more potent).

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm

(this is just one site i think is reliable)

I can't tell you how many times I've read this. If you can prove to me that Androdione is more bioavailable than
4-AD, then it would be a mystery as to why 4-AD came out in the first place (I know back then formestane was not available to prohormone/prosteroid users). I'm just saying if it is as you say it is, why aren't top companies making this formula with formestane (or 4-hydroxyandrostene-3,17-dione) included.

[pogue]

Originally posted by cutforever
Pogue...I KNOW you know tons about this when it comes to this topic...but just for my knowledge can you prove to me that andro is more bioavailable with proven studies? I still have yet to see someone who has better results off of Androdione compared to 4-AD. The rate of conversion for Androdione on numerous sites prove that its rate is 5.61%. For 4-AD it's 15.76% (Roughly 3X more potent).

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm

(this is just one site i think is reliable)

I can't tell you how many times I've read this. If you can prove to me that Androdione is more bioavailable than
4-AD, then it would be a mystery as to why 4-AD came out in the first place (I know back then formestane was not available to prohormone/prosteroid users). I'm just saying if it is as you say it is, why aren't top companies making this formula with formestane (or 4-hydroxyandrostene-3,17-dione) included.

The numbers you are quoting came from this article originally:

http://t-mag.com/html/27proho.html

I will quote PA from it

Compounds and Percent Testosterone Formed*

DHEA: 0.35%
5-Androstenediol: 0.19%
Androstenedione: 5.61%
4-Androstenediol: 15.76%

*The amount of testosterone formed upon incubation in human blood. (Source: Blaquier, J., Forchielli, E., and Dorfman, R., Acta Endocrinologica, 55, 697-704)


It's no contest. This data shows 4-AD to be far superior to androstenedione in regard to testosterone conversion. To illustrate it another way, 4-AD is 281% more efficient in T conversion than its closest competitor, androstenedione.

Nevertheless, this is in-vitro (conducted in a test tube) data and doesn't necessarily indicate what will happen when living, breathing males ingest it. To answer this question, LPJ Research, Inc. funded a study at Eastern Michigan University that was supervised by Tim Ziegenfuss, PhD. What Dr. Ziegenfuss did was give seven male subjects (average age: 28.1 years) samples of 100 mg androstenedione, 100 mg 4-androstenediol, and 100 mg placebo, all on separate days.

The subjects had a portion of blood drawn before and after ingesting the samples. They continued to have blood drawn at intervals of 30, 60, and 90 minutes. Blood samples were then analyzed for total testosterone and free (unbound) testosterone.

4-AD caused a 310% greater increase (relative to placebo) in total testosterone compared to androstenedione, and a 256% greater increase in free testosterone!

Unfortunately, due to budget constraints at the time, the study was only carried out to 90 minutes, so we don't know how fast the hormone levels declined. However, if you look at both prohormones, it appears that they both share the same pharmacokinetic (rate of rise and fall in levels) properties. This data is scheduled to be presented at a professional conference in Finland this November, and will then be considered a totally valid, peer-reviewed study.

As you see, the conversion rates mentioned were from test tube data. Furthermore, The data Patrick mentioned about the 4AD was only done for 90 minutes (and at what route of administration I don't know).

So, you can base your own conclusions of that. But the fact is that 4AD can only convert to test. Andro can aromatize to estrogen, but converts to test through a different enzyme. How bioavailable one or the other is I don't know, there was a whole big argument between PA and Bill L. on this and I quit reading after the first couple pages. Suffice to say, there was data for either.

Formestane I am still skeptical about. As Dio mentioned, running this with Arimidex would probably be your best option, but Arimidex raises test on its own, so again you enter the cost to benefit ratio factor.

[cutforever]

Yea Pogue, i hear ya bro..they always get in page long arguments...Back to the topic though... The study did claim that they gave 4-AD and Androdione to 7 male subjects (average age 28.1) which shows that it is fact, not vitro-based results. So after all is read and thought on back to what you (and Dio i believe) said about megadoses of Androdione to get good results, wouldn't you think the side effects are much more serious at taking 3 grams of Androdione a day with formestane rather than just taking a large but safe amount of 4-AD? To me, I don't think the gains would be THAT much higher than the 4-AD, or to even say worth it.

[jhov]

cutforever,
Good point bro but this statement by PA made me think that maybe if it is soo then the cost to effect ratio is the only thing left to worry about at high dosages and not sides.

I have seen blood results (confidential ones) that show that at very high dosages of androstenedion the testosterone / estrogen ratio actually is pretty normal. This is in contrast to lower dosages where e raises much more than t. apparently aromatase reaches a saturation point at the high dosages while 17beta-HSD does not. I am referring to multiple gram dosages here

I will have to do more research and get some studies and figueres first to see for myself

peace
j

[pogue]

Originally posted by cutforever
Yea Pogue, i hear ya bro..they always get in page long arguments...Back to the topic though... The study did claim that they gave 4-AD and Androdione to 7 male subjects (average age 28.1) which shows that it is fact, not vitro-based results. So after all is read and thought on back to what you (and Dio i believe) said about megadoses of Androdione to get good results, wouldn't you think the side effects are much more serious at taking 3 grams of Androdione a day with formestane rather than just taking a large but safe amount of 4-AD? To me, I don't think the gains would be THAT much higher than the 4-AD, or to even say worth it.

No idea. If you were inhibiting aromatese 100%, then you would only have straight test. I really don't know the saturation points for the two enzymes, but if we look at the data for 1,4andro we see the it has a higher conversion rate and better bioavailability than 4AD and andro. With feedback from its diol counterpart being so poor, I tend to believe that this might be true for andro as well (as far as conversions and bioavailability go). Other than that, everything is just speculation.

I would rather just go bump an amp of test for $10 instead of doing all this experimenting

[dio]

Originally posted by pogue
than that, everything is just speculation.

there's more than speculation, the information just isn't published.

It'd be interesting if the 4dione was cheap, otherwise it's just a waste of time.

[cutforever]

Hahaha... wouldn't we all...

Good point about the 1,4 Andro pogue as it might have a similarity to it, but as you said, more studies and/or statistics need to be observed.

Jhov definetly keep us (or me if no one else cares!) up to date about anything you might find about this issue.

[lakevillethor]

Originally posted by cutforever
Why in God's name would you do something so childish. I thought you were the smart one who knew alot about prohormones/prosteroids, and now you go back to old andro? 4-AD converts to test 3X more compared to Androstenedione, and has a lower percentage of aromatization compared to Androstenedione. I dont think i need to tell you this, as you should know this already...but with questions like these make me wonder...

Bro,

Settle down. I am the smart one.
-AT

[lakevillethor]

Originally posted by dio
there's more than speculation, the information just isn't published.

It'd be interesting if the 4dione was cheap, otherwise it's just a waste of time.

I am going to run this test to see if it will work (megadose 4dione w/ a transdermal formastat). The thing about 4-AD is that, like pogue said, it is all about how it is administered. If it is injected, then 4-AD will convert with a higher affinity – no one is arguing that. However, if taken orally, since you liver automatically converts steroids to their dione counter parts (assuming a double bonded oxygen at the 3rd position), the dione version will get through near 100% while a large percentage of the 4-AD will be converted to 4-androstene, 3-ol, 17-one.

Anyway, I was thinking about taking like 2 grams of 4-dione with perhaps arimidex or formastat. I will see if Bill will give me any formastat to run this test. Anyone have any clue as to how much arimidex or formastat should be taken with this to combat the estrogen?
-AT

[lakevillethor]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
Eastern Michigan did a carefully controlled study that found a dose of 100mg 4-AD raised testosterone 3 times higher than 100mg androstenedione

This is not to say that androstenedione at very high dosages might not raise testosterone quite well. I am sure it does.

I have seen blood results (confidential ones) that show that at very high dosages of androstenedion the testosterone / estrogen ratio actually is pretty normal. This is in contrast to lower dosages where e raises much more than t. apparently aromatase reaches a saturation point at the high dosages while 17beta-HSD does not. I am referring to multiple gram dosages here

So don't think you know it all. I certainly don't know it all and i have more prohormone facts in my brain than any of you whackers!! the more you know the more you realize you don't know

patrick,

Send me an email so I can respond to it. I lost your new email address. thanks.
-AT

Also, I didn't mean to be exclusive to formastat - I would also run this with 6-OXO if it was believeed that it would do the job...
-AT

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by lakevillethor
patrick,

Send me an email so I can respond to it. I lost your new email address. thanks.
-AT

Also, I didn't mean to be exclusive to formastat - I would also run this with 6-OXO if it was believeed that it would do the job...
-AT

If there were some way you could get before, during, and perhaps after blood tests then i would donate the 6-OXO for your experiment

[lakevillethor]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
If there were some way you could get before, during, and perhaps after blood tests then i would donate the 6-OXO for your experiment

Do you know how much it would cost to have the blood samples drawn? You must be confident in your product - that is a lot of estrogen to combat.
-AT

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by lakevillethor
Do you know how much it would cost to have the blood samples drawn? You must be confident in your product - that is a lot of estrogen to combat.
-AT

That is irrelevant

We are not combatting estrogen (or androstenedione), we are combatting aromatase.

All we have to do is block a large percentage of the aromatase enyzme.

600mg a day i feel can do that.

What aromatase is left unblocked will not be enough to process very much androstenedione. So no matter what large amounts you ingest, you are limited by the tiny enzyme availability.


If you can find a place to do your blood draws and to test your testosterone then we can fund it


I would suggest a preload for a few days on the 6-OXO before starting the androstenedione

[NO MERCY]

This should be interesting

[lakevillethor]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
That is irrelevant

We are not combatting estrogen (or androstenedione), we are combatting aromatase.

All we have to do is block a large percentage of the aromatase enyzme.

600mg a day i feel can do that.

What aromatase is left unblocked will not be enough to process very much androstenedione. So no matter what large amounts you ingest, you are limited by the tiny enzyme availability.


If you can find a place to do your blood draws and to test your testosterone then we can fund it


I would suggest a preload for a few days on the 6-OXO before starting the androstenedione

I guess I was confused. I thought that the 6-OXO would battle the estradiol after the conversion. I did not know that it would work on the aromatase.

I will look into a place to take blood samples, compadre. Please send me an email so we can work out a few details here; I don't have your new address. thor55372@hotmail.com. Thanks.
-AT

[lakevillethor]

Bumping for more feedback...
-AT