Act to end the Iraq folly

[cowboyathlete]

Act to end the Iraq folly

Four years have passed since "Shock and Awe" was unleashed on an Iraq already staggering from the first Gulf War, nearly a decade of incessant bombing by the United States in northern and southern portions of the country and nearly as long under sanctions that we termed the most severe in human history.

Four years have passed. At least 3,219 U.S. soldiers, most of them just beyond boyhood, have died. Untold tens of thousands of Iraqis have died. It is a number we don?t keep. It is a number that early on our then-Secretary of State Colin Powell said flatly he wasn?t interested in.

Four years have passed. The United States in that time has spent in excess of $410 billion. According to the National Priorities Project (nationalpriorities.org), a long-established organization that tracks public spending, the United States spends $11 million an hour on the Iraq war.

The $410 billion is enough to send more than 54 million children to a year of Head Start, or to insure more than 245 million kids for a year. To place that last number in perspective, the Census Bureau?s figures for 2005 show that 8.3 million children were uninsured. They could be covered by medical insurance with a small portion of what we have spent in Iraq.

That amount would enable school districts across the country to hire an additional 7 million public school teachers. It is enough to give four-year scholarships at public universities to more than 19 million students. According to the Department of Education?s Digest of Education Statistics, a total of 17.3 million students are enrolled in public two- and four-year institutions of higher learning. Of that figure, 6.5 million are in two-year colleges. The picture is clear. What we spend in Iraq alone would be more than enough to give a scholarship to every kid in the country going to public colleges.

* * *

Four years have passed, and a country that was on the brink of disintegration when the bombs started raining down anew has been thoroughly shattered. A culture that was in disarray has been ground to dust. A middle class has been dispersed. Intellectuals, having sold their libraries and, finding themselves beyond any reasonable expectations of continuing their scholarship, have fled. Professionals, tired of being targeted by kidnappers and extortionists, have gone into exile and are settling in elsewhere. The pre-war Iraq has become a diaspora. The current Iraq is home to vicious sectarian killers, al-Qaida operatives and assorted other terrorists. It is a chaotic and deadly mix overseen by a deeply corrupt new government for which the United States has become a largely ineffective mediator, able to bring a bit of sanity to this or that location only for as long as troops are not needed elsewhere.

It is difficult to find -- amid a wide array of military brainpower and former high-level government and security personnel -- any voice that can make a convincing argument to stay the course, whatever that course might be at any given moment in this long, tragic national nightmare.

From WMD to "mission accomplished," to "the insurgency is in its last throes" to "we're making progress" to the "surge" is the answer, the Bush administration has trafficked in faulty intelligence, terrible decisions, miscalculations and deceit. It is time to end this folly.

* * *

Once the case could be made that the United States? invasion and occupation had rid the world of a dictator. Indeed, that is the case, and he and a number of his henchman have since gone to the gallows.

But the argument could also be made that the world is populated with brutal leaders and that the killing fields are, even today, multiplying. As one conservative columnist commented at the beginning of the war, using the dictator or WMD rationale for preemptive war would keep us busy at war for many years.

In our own hemisphere, the list of atrocities -- tortures, massacres, assassinations -- and their attendant brutal dictators would fill volumes. And they already have in places like Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Guatemala, where they are still opening mass graves and where one of the bloodiest dictators in Central America's modern history -- Efra'n Rios Montt -- runs free.

We have never asked for an accounting by or for any of them. They were our friends, they protected our interests, they were good for business in their ability to cut through the messy incidentals of justice for indigenous and marginalized and the like.

The United States has a variety of standards in its approach to the world and it is that inconsistency so glaringly bared that, as much as any failed war policy, is toppling us from our moral pedestal.

* * *

Four years have passed, and there were some protests on the March 19 anniversary. A few people were arrested, a few newspapers and some TV outlets took note. But it was all over as quickly as it began. Most of us, even if we deeply disagree with the policy of the past six years, can go about our lives without much distraction. The details of the war are a numbing, nagging background noise.

There?s no draft. That means only a tiny minority of U.S. parents have to work through the night sweats and the worry about what is happening to a son or daughter in the mayhem of Iraq. It is a tiny portion of young people who, in increasingly unjust redeployments, are asked to face the ultimate sacrifice.

Apparently an election in November that rearranged the Congress and in which dissatisfaction with the war was a primary issue was not enough to compel action. Our civic leaders aren?t listening and our religious leaders are largely silent. But our civic and religious traditions empower us in many ways. The Web site mentioned above for the National Priorities Project contains clear information and instruction on the simplest acts of democracy -- contacting legislators and making your voice heard.

There are many other sites that offer similar instruction and encouragement to act. Pick one and get going.

And we'd also strongly recommend hooking up with a local Pax Christi group, the Catholic peace organization that is part of an international movement of Catholic peace activists. It considers the issues of the day from the depths of the Catholic social justice tradition. The Pax Christi approach is thoughtful, prayerful and ultimately leads to action.

Four years have passed. The accumulated death and destruction has done nothing to move Iraq or the world toward the goals of peace and security. Quite the opposite has occurred. It is time to witness to a new way of approaching the world.

National Catholic Reporter, March 30, 2007

[benjamin88]

this article is great at criticizing the war with hindsight, yet provides no logical solution for the future of iraq....

[dreambig73]

Originally Posted by benjamin88

this article is great at criticizing the war with hindsight, yet provides no logical solution for the future of iraq....

Absolutely correct. Many mistakes have been made, but the biggest mistake would be to leave Iraq to it's own devices. The surge does seem to be working (decrease in violence in Iraq). This plan needs time to work. The Democrats and other nay-sayers would be gravely disappointed if things start to work out over there.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by benjamin88

this article is great at criticizing the war with hindsight, yet provides no logical solution for the future of iraq....

Nobody ever does.

It's easy to complain, but difficult to resolve.

[xer0xed]

Originally Posted by benjamin88

this article is great at criticizing the war with hindsight, yet provides no logical solution for the future of iraq....

Yep, agree with the war or not, the hardest part of a war is figuring out how to end it with minimal repercussions. That is what we should be focusing on, and not worrying about congress trying to express the majority sentiment that the war was a bad idea at the expense of our future.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by xer0xed

Yep, agree with the war or not, the hardest part of a war is figuring out how to end it with minimal repercussions. That is what we should be focusing on, and not worrying about congress trying to express the majority sentiment that the war was a bad idea at the expense of our future.

Unfortunately we've reached a point in time where the Senate, House, and White House all have different agendas as to how we should proceed from here, causing each other to continually cancel out, rather than provide checks and balance.

When action needs to be taken the most, our governement has careened themselves into a corner of inactivity.

And they have to do Ray Nagin's job for him.

[efini84]

Originally Posted by Lothar

Nobody ever does.

some do. it's just that most pro-war folk block them out when they realize they're talking about a diplomatic solution instead of military solution.

[joelz54_99]

Originally Posted by dreambig73

Absolutely correct. Many mistakes have been made, but the biggest mistake would be to leave Iraq to it's own devices. The surge does seem to be working (decrease in violence in Iraq). This plan needs time to work. The Democrats and other nay-sayers would be gravely disappointed if things start to work out over there.

None of us know whats going on in Iraq. The place is a $hithole. Some of their own elected officials have sited with the insurgents and possibly aiding them with their war. Its a battle we cant win. All we can do is let God sort them out. Peace.

[daniel77]

Originally Posted by efini84

some do. it's just that most pro-war folk block them out when they realize they're talking about a diplomatic solution instead of military solution.

I am not sure how you become diplomatic with people who blow there own children up, the US has tried talks for decades now with no resolve.
The figure used to account for the money spent in Iraq is close to what the US spends on illegal immagration, we need to change alot of things.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by daniel77

I am not sure how you become diplomatic with people who blow there own children up, the US has tried talks for decades now with no resolve.
The figure used to account for the money spent in Iraq is close to what the US spends on illegal immagration, we need to change alot of things.

Indeed. Here's a quote from an archivist I found a while back that's pretty good (although a little fluffed) about that issue.

"Their region of the world has taken in huge amounts of money from petroleum sales to the developed world. Has that money been used to upgrade people from their squalid lives? Have great universities been constructed, cures for diseases discovered, products invented to benefit all humankind, music composed and art created that the world envies and admires? They have not, so they blame their miserable existence on the Jews and the West who have done such things and more.

Unable to cope with their failings and to justify their guilt, they seek to bring others down to their level. They will not be stopped by diplomatic appeals, or reason. They have taken up the sword and they must be made to die by the sword in sufficient numbers that even they will see the futility of their ways and be forced to engage in less warlike pursuits."

[jf1]

because of the enormous investment in this war, the US will only "pull-out" after oil rights are secured and the government of iraq can protect those oil rights...

this war has been a mistake from the begining: based on total lies and deception! remember when wolfowitz told us the war would pay for itself in oil revenue in 2 years? thats when they told us that we would be greeted as heroes!

remember after they couldnt find the WMD they tried, somewhat successfully, to tie iraq in to 9/11 and al queda?

then it became a matter of spreading freedom and democracy to iraq...leading only to destruction and civil war!

remember when cheney told us that "the insurgency was in its last throes"
almost 3 years ago?

the bush administration has played the american public for fools!
successfully!
this war is about oil, about occupation of oil reserves, and about oil companies (remember haliburton?)

meanwhile back at home: our oil dependence is bigger than ever, gas prices are higher than ever (except at election time), and nothing seems to be changing!

are we that stupid that we cant see this? WTF?!

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by jackfast1

because of the enormous investment in this war, the US will only "pull-out" after oil rights are secured and the government of iraq can protect those oil rights...

this war has been a mistake from the begining: based on total lies and deception! remember when wolfowitz told us the war would pay for itself in oil revenue in 2 years? thats when they told us that we would be greeted as heroes!

remember after they couldnt find the WMD they tried, somewhat successfully, to tie iraq in to 9/11 and al queda?

then it became a matter of spreading freedom and democracy to iraq...leading only to destruction and civil war!

remember when cheney told us that "the insurgency was in its last throes"
almost 3 years ago?

the bush administration has played the american public for fools!
successfully!
this war is about oil, about occupation of oil reserves, and about oil companies (remember haliburton?)

meanwhile back at home: our oil dependence is bigger than ever, gas prices are higher than ever (except at election time), and nothing seems to be changing!

are we that stupid that we cant see this? WTF?!

So who is benefitting from the high oil prices? It's not me nor American oil companies.

The Bush admin never played me for a fool. We found what we were looking for even though they were moved, I don't care about Bin Laden anymore, he's done, and many many great things have come of this war you obviously failed to mention.

You are a pessimist and only see wrongs.

[cowboyathlete]

Originally Posted by jackfast1

because of the enormous investment in this war, the US will only "pull-out" after oil rights are secured and the government of iraq can protect those oil rights...

this war has been a mistake from the begining: based on total lies and deception! remember when wolfowitz told us the war would pay for itself in oil revenue in 2 years? thats when they told us that we would be greeted as heroes!

remember after they couldnt find the WMD they tried, somewhat successfully, to tie iraq in to 9/11 and al queda?

then it became a matter of spreading freedom and democracy to iraq...leading only to destruction and civil war!

remember when cheney told us that "the insurgency was in its last throes"
almost 3 years ago?

the bush administration has played the american public for fools!
successfully!
this war is about oil, about occupation of oil reserves, and about oil companies (remember haliburton?)

meanwhile back at home: our oil dependence is bigger than ever, gas prices are higher than ever (except at election time), and nothing seems to be changing!

are we that stupid that we cant see this? WTF?!

Agreed.

[AJbuilder]

Originally Posted by efini84

some do. it's just that most pro-war folk block them out when they realize they're talking about a diplomatic solution instead of military solution.

What diplomatic solutions have been proposed? I'm not aware of any by either party.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by AJbuilder

What diplomatic solutions have been proposed? I'm not aware of any by either party.

They were proposed time and agin to no avail.

[AJbuilder]

Originally Posted by jackfast1

remember after they couldnt find the WMD they tried, somewhat successfully, to tie iraq in to 9/11 and al queda?

There was questionable intelligence tying Al Qaeda to Iraq prior to the war, dating back to 98. Right after 9/11 you had almost half of the Dems in the Senate calling for some sort of action to disarm Saddam.

There is also confirmed intelligence that Saddam started shipping out fissle material out right after the Gulf War up until the Hans Blix crew came in. It's not exactly factual to say Saddam never had WMDs.

[Shaun1990]

Originally Posted by Lothar

So who is benefitting from the high oil prices? It's not me nor American oil companies.

Actually, American oil companies are making the most profit they ever have, and new laws, being published by the Iraqi government oddly enough,are giving Western oil companies a massive share of the 115 billion barrels of oil.

The Bush admin never played me for a fool. We found what we were looking for even though they were moved,

Find what? I cant recall WMD's ever being found.

I don't care about Bin Laden anymore, he's done, and many many great things have come of this war you obviously failed to mention.

No, Bin Laden is not done, he is certainly worth our attention. Especially when it was him that was responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and not Iraq.
Now, please tell me exactly what these 'great many things' are, the only one I can think of is the removal of Saddam, even that is disuptable now that Iraqis are living in worse conditions than before, on average.

You are a pessimist and only see wrongs.

Ultimately, pessimism is the most beneficial for society, why bother focusing on the positives when we can change the negatives to be positives?

[Power-Quest]

Am i the only one who was for the war then , and still is till the end?

For the record i support knocking Iran off its heels also.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by Shaun1990

Actually, American oil companies are making the most profit they ever have, and new laws, being published by the Iraqi government oddly enough,are giving Western oil companies a massive share of the 115 billion barrels of oil.

Find what? I cant recall WMD's ever being found.

No, Bin Laden is not done, he is certainly worth our attention. Especially when it was him that was responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and not Iraq.
Now, please tell me exactly what these 'great many things' are, the only one I can think of is the removal of Saddam, even that is disuptable now that Iraqis are living in worse conditions than before, on average.

Ultimately, pessimism is the most beneficial for society, why bother focusing on the positives when we can change the negatives to be positives?

That's what we are doing in this war, changing negatives to positives.

American Oil companies have reported many quarterly losses in the duration of this war.

You need to do a little research other than on www.democraticunderground.com for the WMD's.

While we aren't even sure if Bin Laden even exists anymore, what good is it going to do to exhaust all our efforts into finding one man who generals say if he even were still alive, cannot conduct logistics from hiding? I mean, will finding one man change your mind about this war?

[Shaun1990]

Originally Posted by Lothar

That's what we are doing in this war, changing negatives to positives.

Failing miserably in the process, might I add.

American Oil companies have reported many quarterly losses in the duration of this war.

Yes, and there are four quarters in a year, a quarterly loss is only a loss of profits for one month, a profit in the otther three would usually be more than enough to make up for it.

You need to do a little research other than on www.democraticunderground.com for the WMD's.

You need to actually start posting what you have 'researched' . . .

While we aren't even sure if Bin Laden even exists anymore, what good is it going to do to exhaust all our efforts into finding one man who generals say if he even were still alive, cannot conduct logistics from hiding? I mean, will finding one man change your mind about this war?

Well, since the Iraq and Afghanistan wars bear no correlation, then finding Bin Laden would not change my mind about the Iraq war, no, but it would change my mind on this useless, failing war on terror.

[Thinman]

I was hoping we would see some kind of oil benefit from Iraq. It looks like the opposite is happening. Gas is higher than ever. I wouldn't be surprised if it hits $4.00 a gallon during the summer.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by Shaun1990

Failing miserably in the process, might I add.

Yes, and there are four quarters in a year, a quarterly loss is only a loss of profits for one month, a profit in the otther three would usually be more than enough to make up for it.

You need to actually start posting what you have 'researched' . . .

Well, since the Iraq and Afghanistan wars bear no correlation, then finding Bin Laden would not change my mind about the Iraq war, no, but it would change my mind on this useless, failing war on terror.

-That's your opinion, I see it differently.

-There are 4 quarters, and some have reported profits, some losses, some with dilluted shares as low as .9

-I'm not doing your homework for you with a bunch of cut & paste

-So why go after him?

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by dreambig73

Absolutely correct. Many mistakes have been made, but the biggest mistake would be to leave Iraq to it's own devices. The surge does seem to be working (decrease in violence in Iraq). This plan needs time to work. The Democrats and other nay-sayers would be gravely disappointed if things start to work out over there.

The surge IS working, that is why the media isn't covering Iraq as intensely anymore, God forbid that they might accidentally let out some good news. My friend emailed me a night ago, he's in the infantry, stationed in Baghdad, and the title of his email was "I WANT TO STAY." He says the progress that they've made in about a month is astounding, and not even all of the new troops have yet arrived, so the protocols that Petraeus has put in place are quite effective and the soldiers will follow that guy anywhere.

I know the feeling, he was my commanding general at the 101st, the best qualified general that we've had running things from the get-go, he's a brilliant military strategist, but primarily, he is a soldier first, so he won't be a "yes man" for any politician out there.

You can even see the difference in American attitude's towards the war, as the latest polls have shown a 10% increase in support for it. The Democrats, as usual, have horrible timing with their "mandatory withdrawl date" scheme and it will come back to bite them in the ass later on.

[Shaun1990]

Originally Posted by Lothar

-That's your opinion, I see it differently.

I find it hard to see how anyone could find this war a success, especially when;

• More Iraqis are dying under the insurgency than Saddam.
• 7 out of 10 Iraqis want us out before the end of the year.
• Over 3500 British and American deaths.
• Somewhere around 75% of Iraqis think its OK to attack us in Iraq.
• World terrorism has increased.
• The price of oil has increased.
• Oil production is around 20% down.
• Its bringing us into conflict with Iran, a country which we cannot beat in a war.

-I'm not doing your homework for you with a bunch of cut & paste

So, in other words, you are not going to back up your points with sources?

-So why go after him?

Good point.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by Shaun1990

I find it hard to see how anyone could find this war a success, especially when;

• More Iraqis are dying under the insurgency than Saddam.
• 7 out of 10 Iraqis want us out before the end of the year.
• Over 3500 British and American deaths.
• Somewhere around 75% of Iraqis think its OK to attack us in Iraq.
• World terrorism has increased.
• The price of oil has increased.
• Oil production is around 20% down.
• Its bringing us into conflict with Iran, a country which we cannot beat in a war.

So, in other words, you are not going to back up your points with sources?



Good point.

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

The surge IS working, that is why the media isn't covering Iraq as intensely anymore, God forbid that they might accidentally let out some good news. My friend emailed me a night ago, he's in the infantry, stationed in Baghdad, and the title of his email was "I WANT TO STAY." He says the progress that they've made in about a month is astounding, and not even all of the new troops have yet arrived, so the protocols that Petraeus has put in place are quite effective and the soldiers will follow that guy anywhere.

I know the feeling, he was my commanding general at the 101st, the best qualified general that we've had running things from the get-go, he's a brilliant military strategist, but primarily, he is a soldier first, so he won't be a "yes man" for any politician out there.

You can even see the difference in American attitude's towards the war, as the latest polls have shown a 10% increase in support for it. The Democrats, as usual, have horrible timing with their "mandatory withdrawl date" scheme and it will come back to bite them in the ass later on.

No, I'm not cutting and pasting a bunch of crap that can be misinterpreted.

[ElMariachi]

[QUOTE=Shaun1990;30430901]I find it hard to see how anyone could find this war a success, especially when;[LIST]

[*]More Iraqis are dying under the insurgency than Saddam.

You are right, we should have just let a madman run that country for decades more, along with his sons, leading to hundreds of thousands of more deaths, people being raped, tortured, slaughtered, because you in your comfy home far away have a better view of what is going on in that country then people that are actually there.

[*]7 out of 10 Iraqis want us out before the end of the year.

Actually, one poll said 3/10, another said 5/10, yet another said 6/10...the only common thread is where these polls are taken. In the 27/30 regions in Iraq that are relatively secure, you will find most people support the American presence, its the Baghdad/Sunni area where nonstop terrorist activity has led to several problems.

[*]Over 3500 British and American deaths.

Death happens in war, that is something that is expected, in the long run, removing a nut like Hussein and his sons from power, should be the best thing, it shows that evil men can't play to the UN and the useful idiots to allow them to do as they wish.

[*]Somewhere around 75% of Iraqis think its OK to attack us in Iraq.

Once again, check your poll sources, where the poll was taken. If one is standing in downtown Tikrit, taking this poll, the response would not be so shocking. But try taking this poll in Erbil and see what the numbers are?

[*]World terrorism has increased.

Yes, because as we know, there was no terrorism before the US went into Iraq, the world was terror free.

[*]The price of oil has increased.

Nothing gets past you does it?

[*]Oil production is around 20% down.

Yet, the US is still the only modern, first-world nation that has not built a refinery or a nuclear plant in the past few decades.

[*]Its bringing us into conflict with Iran, a country which we cannot beat in a war.p/LIST]

LOL, all of the sudden you're a military expert? That was hilarious. America has no need to get into a conflict with Iran, but if Iran is trying to provoke one, then they are mighty stupid indeed. Also, who the hell is we? You live in Scotland.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

LOL, all of the sudden you're a military expert? That was hilarious. America has no need to get into a conflict with Iran, but if Iran is trying to provoke one, then they are mighty stupid indeed.

While they may be insane, it seems they have enough rationality not to go into that type of situation. It would only be used as some type of diversion tactic that could easily be detrimental to Iran.

A close friend of mine who is a West Point graduate and a general in the Army told me over the phone yesterday that if they have to occupy another country, it would be counter-productive, but the strives they are making are astronomical. It's just a matter of it not being reported.

It's the age-old equation that bad news makes news.

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by Lothar

While they may be insane, it seems they have enough rationality not to go into that type of situation. It would only be used as some type of diversion tactic that could easily be detrimental to Iran.

A close friend of mine who is a West Point graduate and a general in the Army told me over the phone yesterday that if they have to occupy another country, it would be counter-productive, but the strives they are making are astronomical. It's just a matter of it not being reported.

It's the age-old equation that bad news makes news.

Well, this was predicted by many, the less you hear about Iraq, the better things are going, and lately, its been ridiculously quiet, the only things you hear about are Anna Nicole Smith and politicians b%&&&g at each other about Iraq.

More and more though, I find average everyday folks becoming more optimistic. Petraeus has actually given people a reason for hope, and at this point, the Democrats are so invested in defeat, that they have actively tried to sabotage his efforts, the artificial time-tables....etc.

Because if this continues, and he manages to turn things around, they're going to be the equivalent of burnt toast in 2008.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

Well, this was predicted by many, the less you hear about Iraq, the better things are going, and lately, its been ridiculously quiet, the only things you hear about are Anna Nicole Smith and politicians b%&&&g at each other about Iraq.

LOL...true.

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

More and more though, I find average everyday folks becoming more optimistic. Petraeus has actually given people a reason for hope, and at this point, the Democrats are so invested in defeat, that they have actively tried to sabotage his efforts, the artificial time-tables....etc.

Because if this continues, and he manages to turn things around, they're going to be the equivalent of burnt toast in 2008.

With zero to no geo-political experience invested in neither one of the democratic candidates, I personally feel they are already burnt toast. But there are other issues out there.

I agree in that I also hae noticed more people are feeling more and more optomistic about what we are being able to do in the Middle East.

[Lothar]

I also have a real problem with democrats undermining the expertise of Generals and telling them how to do their job, to do it differently, that they will fail, etc.

This,coming from people who want to cut military funding (and I'm not talking just about the war, I'm talking about various Navy, Army, and Air Force bases around the country) and of whom most have no business telling an Army 4 Star General what his tactics need be.

Just yesterday Bush commented on this exact issue.