science behind dairy and water retension

[adam247]

I have done some research and can not find the evidence to suggest me as individual who can digest lactose well should not have dairy pre comp!
I choose to continue to use low fat low sugar live yoghurt and cheese........can anyone give me the science behind why this is a bad idea.....or a reference to studies that have been done???
Thanx

[reefpicker]

Originally Posted by adam247

I have done some research and can not find the evidence to suggest me as individual who can digest lactose well should not have dairy pre comp!
I choose to continue to use low fat low sugar live yoghurt and cheese........can anyone give me the science behind why this is a bad idea.....or a reference to studies that have been done???
Thanx

I want to see what comes out of this thread. IMO no science behind that claim. Lets see what others have to say.

[gainmusclefast]

i eat cottage cheese i feel fat for a week but it taste great

[adam247]

from my own research.....its the fat and lactose that some people have an allergy to........and most of us find the mucus in dairy hard to digest......But if the sugar and fat is taken out then i cant find a reason why it would cause you to hold water!!!??

[in10city]

If one isn't nutritionally aware, they are sources of hidden sodium, sugars and fats if you don't read the labels.

Putting the obvious aside, other promulgations - legit or otherwise - for the "cut dairy" suggestion appear to be based upon the purported estrogen levels in milk ... more reason to eat testosterone boosting and anti-estrogen foods like broccoli ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum

Is milk responsible for male reproductive disorders?
The role of environmental compounds with estrogenic activity in the development of male reproductive disorders has been a source of great concern. Among the routes of human exposure to estrogens, we are particularly concerned about cows' milk, which contains considerable amounts of estrogens. The major sources of animal-derived estrogens in the human diet are milk and dairy products, which account for 60-70% of the estrogens consumed. Humans consume milk obtained from heifers in the latter half of pregnancy, when the estrogen levels in cows are markedly elevated. The milk that we now consume may be quite unlike that consumed 100 years ago. Modern genetically-improved dairy cows, such as the Holstein, are usually fed a combination of grass and concentrates (grain/protein mixes and various by-products), allowing them to lactate during the latter half of pregnancy, even at 220 days of gestation. We hypothesize that milk is responsible, at least in part, for some male reproductive disorders. Copyright 2001 Harcourt Publishers Ltd.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...f04acae3898783

Estrogen: one of the risk factors in milk for prostate cancer
Studies to elucidate the cause of prostate cancer have met with little success to date. Epidemiological studies suggested that milk consumption is probably as one of the risk factors for prostate cancer. The studies thus focused on the fat and calcium in milk, but reached no definitive conclusion. According to the measurements of estrogen levels in milk by different studies, it was suggested that estrogen in milk was a possible risk to cause prostate cancer. One reason supporting this hypothesis is that Western diet (characterized by milk/dairy products and meat) causes a trend of increasing levels of estrogens, and Western males show a higher incidence rate of prostate cancer than Asia males. Estrogen levels in prostate fluid are also correlated very well with the prostate cancer. During several decades, estrogens, together with testosterone, was commonly used to induce the rodent model of prostate cancer. Our hypothesis also was supported by the presence of estrogen receptors in the prostate gland and the genotoxic role of estrogens on the prostate gland, as possible mechanisms. Therefore, if modern milk consumption does expose consumers to high levels of estrogen and plays an adverse role in prostate cancer, action should be taken to produce the noncontaminant milk.

[adam247]

again as i said its low fat, low sugar dairy.......i knew the possible raise in estrogen levels might come up - the same argument people have with soya. Theres been one or two studies that have shown slight increases in estrogen with large amounts of these foods (and this is mainly in women). The majority of studies have shown no difference. This is the same argument I have with soya - I do not believe estrogen can be raised enough to increase water retenion. And with all other products bodybuilders take, test, GH etc. which also can have the same effect that are taken with anti-estrogens, I cant see this being a determining factor at all. Especially when you are talking about tiny amounts

[Razmoneyrecords]

Adam: I actually just had this debate with some guys on the contest prep forum. It's under the FF cottage cheese thread. I had multiple guys on me about my belief that you can leave dairy in until 2 weeks out. I can't find any science to cutting it earlier other than anectdotal "trust me, I've seen it in my clients."

[adam247]

This is what i thought........even if it was because it can increase estrogen levels.........some bb take anti-estrogens and diretics.....But again seen no real evidence that this is the reason.....just assumption from a small number of studies not directly associated with male athletes. If so why would people cant it out 16 weeks out......why not 8 or 4 ?

[reefpicker]

I totally lost you guys. We are talking about the idea that dairy makes you retain water and now you are all talking about estrogen. What is the logic? no relationship as far as I can see.

I am aware of the contents of the yogurt I eat. Nothing hidden there. If its within target values, its ok. I think that sugar in Yogurt is easily avoided if one eats the palin, fat-free kind.

[in10city]

Originally Posted by reefpicker

I totally lost you guys. We are talking about the idea that dairy makes you retain water and now you are all talking about estrogen. What is the logic? no relationship as far as I can see.

I am aware of the contents of the yogurt I eat. Nothing hidden there. If its within target values, its ok. I think that sugar in Yogurt is easily avoided if one eats the palin, fat-free kind.

No relation between estrogen and fluid balance / water retention - especially the fluctuation and balance thereof ?

[alexclark]

Originally Posted by in10city

If one isn't nutritionally aware, they are sources of hidden sodium, sugars and fats if you don't read the labels.

Putting the obvious aside, other promulgations - legit or otherwise - for the "cut dairy" suggestion appear to be based upon the purported estrogen levels in milk ... more reason to eat testosterone boosting and anti-estrogen foods like broccoli ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...f04acae3898783

Would cottage cheese have the same effect of increasing estrogen? I ask because I eat a HUGE amount since it is one of the few clean protein sources at my college dining hall.

[in10city]

Originally Posted by alexclark

Would cottage cheese have the same effect of increasing estrogen? I ask because I eat a HUGE amount since it is one of the few clean protein sources at my college dining hall.

If you buy into the notion of the estrogenic activity of dairy, then yes.

Personally, I don't. I throw caution to the wind and have my fair share of dairy since I eat so much damn broccoli And sometimes at the same time

[adam247]

the assumption is due to the fact that commercial farming treats animals with female hormones, and these are now in your body causing fluid retention. However back in the real world these would not make an iota of difference!
Soya has the same reputation, which also i dont belive you would have to eat huge amounts which may make a small difference but soya has so many benifits.
That why i have been asking why cut low fat, low sugar dairy from pre contest diet?

[in10city]

Originally Posted by adam247

the assumption is due to the fact that commercial farming treats animals with female hormones, and these are now in your body causing fluid retention. However back in the real world these would not make an iota of difference!
Soya has the same reputation, which also i dont belive you would have to eat huge amounts which may make a small difference but soya has so many benifits.
That why i have been asking why cut low fat, low sugar dairy from pre contest diet?

Your question seems rhetorical.

The sodium content of some products (like cottage cheese) would be the main concern if you are doing any water / fluid / sodium manipulation.

(I won't mention other purported concerns regarding dairy foods, arginine, and skin thickening since I only know of one study regarding high doses of arginine leading to skin thickening and dairy in and of itself isn't providing excessive amounts of it )

[reefpicker]

Originally Posted by in10city

No relation between estrogen and fluid balance / water retention - especially the fluctuation and balance thereof ?

From the way you phrase this, I have the unique feeling you have no idea what mechanism could be involved in PMS/HRT/Pregnancy related water retention, which is what you are talking about.

When the estrogen angle came up, I sincerely thought that the whole thing had been confused somewhere, because I couldnt make the dairy->estrogen->water retention connection.

Now I can see where you guys are coming from.

Still, what I have read in BB books is that ppl do not use dairy pre-contest b/c it causes a specific accumulation of fat around your belly (maybe it was water but I think I recall fat).

So, I dont think there is any science to support that, unless you go on the whole "dairy" hormones angle.

Steroids have so many effects in the body, you could probably attribute anything to them. One of the reasons that progesterone is given in conjuction with estrogen for post-menopausal woman is that they cancel each others "bad" effects. To make matter worst, you all know that some androsteroids can be aromitized to estrogen. In theory, testosterone, progesterone, and estrogen can have the widest, wildest, range of effects in your body that you can attribute to them...

There are too many IFs with this whole angle of the story:
1) You will have to show that cows milk contains estrogen (and not any other steroid that can cancel the effect of estrogen on aldosterone)
2) you will have to show that males respond to estrogen, the same way females do (i.e. increase aldosterone, which causes the water retention)
3) you need to show that the amount you drink in milk is enough to cause the stimulation of aldosterone
4) and that it can be absorbed in such form in the stomach
5) and b/c steroids are fat soluble, you will need to show that they survive the homegenization (and think of it, pasteurization too) process
6) that they are present in fat-free milk, b/c thats what most of us would drink anyway
7) that the amount you take on dairy product (cheese, yogurt) which contain less milk than a glass of milk, and which are handeled in such a way that may render the steroids biologically inactive, also affect your aldosterone levels.

Also, I think that steroids may affect the Renin-Angiotensin system. For those of us on antihypertensive drugs that are ACE inhibitors (which inhibit Renin-Angiotensis system), this effects could be negligible.

So you are really taking a long, winding road, of ifs and ifs.

I think in my list #1, and #2, may have been shown to be true, perhaps even #5. This is what you need to find.... Proof of that and you can start making a more straight and narrow connection.

HTH

[Razmoneyrecords]

This has gone on a rather serious detour. I think the bottom line is that there is little to no scientific evidence that dairy causes subq water retention, that contributes to a "thick skin" appearance. Outside of it's sodium content, which isn't terribly high. If one were to argue the sodium was at fault, I may agree. However, the arguement is that it's a quality inherent to dairy, not sodium that causes this.
We have stories from guys who prep people, and themselves. These guys are clearly very successful bodybuilders, and I have no doubt they're excellent prep guys as well. I'm not questioning anyones accomplishments or methods. However, it remains anecdotal until someone provides some science behind the theory.

[reefpicker]

Originally Posted by Razmoneyrecords

This has gone on a rather serious detour. I think the bottom line is that there is little to no scientific evidence that dairy causes subq water retention, that contributes to a "thick skin" appearance. Outside of it's sodium content, which isn't terribly high. If one were to argue the sodium was at fault, I may agree. However, the arguement is that it's a quality inherent to dairy, not sodium that causes this.
We have stories from guys who prep people, and themselves. These guys are clearly very successful bodybuilders, and I have no doubt they're excellent prep guys as well. I'm not questioning anyones accomplishments or methods. However, it remains anecdotal until someone provides some science behind the theory.

So you are saying that they dont even attribute this to estrogen?

My thought too... Thats why I thought that estrogen here was a distraction.

What "quality" of dairy do they think causes this?

They are other successful BBers and nutrition experts who say this is BS. I have read books that talk about both sides of this story.

[Razmoneyrecords]

They may attribute it to estrogen, but that has not yet been articulated on either of the two threads running. Even then, I'd be inclined to smell myth (even though venom dislikes when I start smelling around). To stress about the miniscule estrogen release from dairy is taking things to a whole other level of bodybuilding paranoia that I'm not prepared to tread into to. I must repeat my philosophy that your body is an adaptive organism that has amazing abilities to compensate and keep itself balanced. To obssess about the most minuet of details is more trouble than it's worth.

However, I will say that the appearance of a hard body with thin skin is obviously the point. So let me restate the fact that I will be cutting dairy in the final days. I do feel it causes me to retain some small measure of water that's unacceptable in the final week. I'll be sticking to plain chicken and turkey, and things of that sort.

My arguement stands the cutting dairy at 8 weeks out is far too early, if you enjoy your cottage cheese, and the delightful casein that lies within.

[in10city]

Originally Posted by reefpicker

From the way you phrase this, I have the unique feeling you have no idea what mechanism could be involved in PMS/HRT/Pregnancy related water retention, which is what you are talking about.

I was questioning the abrogation of ANY relation between estrogren and water retention - be it in males OR females.

Distraction or not. True or false. I'm not going pretend that the claim of estrogens in dairy (and consequentially exerting its effects in humans) doesn't exist.

I'm not convinced that the hormones, if any, used on cattle make it into the food chain intact and in a concentration high enough to exert itself. Would pasturization render it inert ?

[reefpicker]

Originally Posted by Razmoneyrecords

They may attribute it to estrogen, but that has not yet been articulated on either of the two threads running. Even then, I'd be inclined to smell myth (even though venom dislikes when I start smelling around). To stress about the miniscule estrogen release from dairy is taking things to a whole other level of bodybuilding paranoia that I'm not prepared to tread into to. I must repeat my philosophy that your body is an adaptive organism that has amazing abilities to compensate and keep itself balanced. To obssess about the most minuet of details is more trouble than it's worth.

However, I will say that the appearance of a hard body with thin skin is obviously the point. So let me restate the fact that I will be cutting dairy in the final days. I do feel it causes me to retain some small measure of water that's unacceptable in the final week. I'll be sticking to plain chicken and turkey, and things of that sort.

My arguement stands the cutting dairy at 8 weeks out is far too early, if you enjoy your cottage cheese, and the delightful casein that lies within.

Ok, so you are saying it causes you to retain water and thickens the skin. how? thats what i want to know. what mechanism has been proposed?

[in10city]

Originally Posted by reefpicker

Ok, so you are saying it causes you to retain water and thickens the skin. how? thats what i want to know. what mechanism has been proposed?

LOL... I think Mike Mentzer puts it poignantly - "Almost 99.9 percent of all bodybuilders - in fact 99.9 percent of most people - do everything that they do because other people do it. They do what they do out of convention, imitation, tradition and outright fear - fear of being different."

[in10city]

Originally Posted by reefpicker

Ok, so you are saying it causes you to retain water and thickens the skin. how? thats what i want to know. what mechanism has been proposed?

If you really want to make a leap of logic, why stop at dairy? Milk derived whey and casein must also be estrogenic right ? (J/K)

[reefpicker]

Originally Posted by in10city

If you really want to make a leap of logic, why stop at dairy? Milk derived whey and casein must also be estrogenic right ? (J/K)

Yeah what I find even more amazing is that among the estrogenic or progesterogenic effects during pregnancy or from HRT is thickening of the skin.

but I just refuse to think that dairy or milk-derived product have that much estrogen!!!