Had Aisha reached puberty when the Prophet Mohammad had intercourse with her?

[Rugs2007]

We know that the Prophet married her when she was 6, and had intercourse with her when she had 9

We are NOT DEBATING whether it was "right" or "wrong" for this marriage or intercourse to have taken place. No flaming or ignorant posts here please, only sensible debate

However, we ARE debating on whether she had reached puberty when he had intercourse with her

I found this online, and I want to see if knowledgeable Muslims can rebute it

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I challenge you to provide a sahih hadith that says that Aisha had reached puberty when Muhammad first had sex with her.

Here is a summary of my proof:
1. Aisha was still playing with dolls at the time of the battle of Khaibar when she was at least 14 years old. Your great Islamic scholars all maintain that according to the strict interpretation of Islamic laws and the hadiths, and in particular in Muhammad's time, ONLY PRE-PUBESCENT GIRLS were permitted to play with or own dolls, thus proving that when Aisha owned/played with dolls she was pre-pubescent.

2. Aisha was still playing with dolls at the time of her nikah, the same day that Muhammad first had sex with her (according to Tabari).

3. Aisha herself claimed in various hadiths that she had sex with Muhammad at the age of nine. Consummated the marriage doesn't mean nikah, fellas, the root word 'dakhala' in Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, #64 means "to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman" from the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273. So when Aisha herself said she had sex with Muhammad when she was nine, it means just that.

4. The arguments that it was culturally accepted, her parents okayed it, some unrelated Thai girl had a baby when she was 9, Osama bin Zayd commanded an army when he was 13, or other red herrings, do not change the fact that Aisha was a PRE-PUBESCENT 9-year-old child when your prophet first had sex with her.

5. The fact that Muhammad had many mature wives does not change the fact that he was a pedophile. In fact, he fits perfectly the definition of REGRESSED PEDOPHILE.

Regressed (or nonexclusive type) pedophilia: The regressed pedophile views the child as an adult substitute and relate to her as an adult. Typically, the regressed pedophile is a heterosexual male who is married, and they most often molest eight or nine year old girls.

6. The fact that the Jewish traditions or some other tribes/cultures allow pedophilia does not change the fact that Muhammad was a pedophile. This is just a red herring.

7. The fact that she didn't complain doesn't change the fact that she was PRE-PUBESCENT when Muhammad first had sex with her.

8. The fact that today, the doll-playing restriction is relaxed in modern Islamic communities does not change the fact that in Muhammad's time, doll-playing/owning was restricted to PRE-PUBESCENT GIRLS.

9. The fact that the deed occurred 1,400 years ago, does not make cultural and temporal relativism okay. Pedophilia is still pedophilia whether it occurred now or 1,400 years ago.

10. Accusations of applying Western moral/ethical standards to this issue is false as you Islamists claim that Muhammad is the perfect example of a human being for all time. Therefore, you set him up to be judged by all cultural/ethical/moral standards for all time.

[NegroGentleman]

Damn, I is not even knows that. She was 6?

[Rugs2007]

Originally Posted by timbo81

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1582001

5 page thread on the idea of puberty

that's exactly why i started this new thread, I was the one debating in that thread but it didn't specifically address this

[timbo81]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1582001

5 page thread on the idea of puberty

[SYRIANKID]

As far as I have read, the fact that there was a 3 year waiting period between betrothal and actual cohabitation (leaving the house of her father Abu Bakr (may God be pleased with him) is based on the idea that the family was awaiting her attaining maturity before the marriage could take place.

http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm

It also comes from the independently established Islamic principle that one cannot enter into contracts (marriage being a contract) until puberty, and even having attained puberty, unless the guardians deem them responsible enough to engage in the contract:

http://www.lamppostproductions.org/a...fMyBeloved.htm

[Rugs2007]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

As far as I have read, the fact that there was a 3 year waiting period between betrothal and actual cohabitation (leaving the house of her father Abu Bakr (may God be pleased with him).

http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm

It also comes from the independently established Islamic principle that one cannot enter into contracts (marriage being a contract) until puberty, and even having attained puberty, unless the guardians deem them responsible enough to engage in the contract:

http://www.lamppostproductions.org/a...fMyBeloved.htm

that's fine, but that's still not a rebuttal to what I posted

[NegroGentleman]

Originally Posted by timbo81

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1582001

5 page thread on the idea of puberty

I is always heard being passed down from generations to generations, that if theys got muff on them stuff, they's ready to go.

Don't know what to think of that though.

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by Rugs2007

that's fine, but that's still not a rebuttal to what I posted

What did you post that still needs a rebuttal?

I notice that the most essential elements of your post, claims like:

"ONLY PRE-PUBESCENT GIRLS were permitted to play with or own dolls"

are pulled out of thin air.

Even teenaged girls play with dolls or decorate their bedrooms with them. Young men play with and collect action figures (when that's cool, but today it's computer games).

[NegroGentleman]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Even teenaged girls play with dolls or decorate their bedrooms with them. Young men play with and collect action figures (when that's cool, but today it's computer games).

Yeah, and some thems kids today like to play with they's baby daddy hair combs. LOL.

[Rugs2007]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

What did you post that still needs a rebuttal?

I notice that the most essential elements of your post, claims like:

"ONLY PRE-PUBESCENT GIRLS were permitted to play with or own dolls"

are pulled out of thin air.

Even teenaged girls play with dolls or decorate their bedrooms with them. Young men play with and collect action figures (when that's cool, but today it's computer games).

Part 1: Proof that doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent

This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, said regarding doll-playing and little girls:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

How do we know that Ibn Hajar made the doll-playing exegesis: ?The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty??

Because of the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and because when we look at other translations of Bukhari 8:151, the same message is conveyed.

[NegroGentleman]

Originally Posted by Rugs2007

Part 1: Proof that doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent

This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, said regarding doll-playing and little girls:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

How do we know that Ibn Hajar made the doll-playing exegesis: ?The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty??

Because of the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and because when we look at other translations of Bukhari 8:151, the same message is conveyed.

put that is spark notes, we ain't be reading all that.

[Rugs2007]

Alternative translation 1:
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware...ayingDolls.htm

On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)

[The translator then provides some discussion about translations of various versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and Fath-al-Bari]

Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130, Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images (suwar).


Alternative translation 2:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...QR=49844&dgn=4

But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that ?Aa?ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: ?I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I had female friends who would play with me?? al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440.

Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was stated by ?Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted the sale of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for young girls to play with toys?


Alternative translation 3:
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm

Aaishah said, ?I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah's Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called them to play with me.?

In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree, Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalaanee wrote the following: ?This hadeeth is used as evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making images. ?Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children??

Note the great similarity in the commentaries of Ibn Hajar in Fateh al-Bari all four versions of the hadith. The words are different because of the different translators but the essential message is unchanged ? only little girls (i.e. before puberty) are permitted to play with dolls.

[Weightaholic]

Is playing with dolls haram under Islam for pre-pubescents?

[Rugs2007]

Originally Posted by NegroGentleman

put that is spark notes, we ain't be reading all that.

basically a reputable Islamic scholar says that a girl that plays with dolls is pre-pubescent

[NegroGentleman]

Originally Posted by Rugs2007

Alternative translation 1:
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware...ayingDolls.htm

On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)

[The translator then provides some discussion about translations of various versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and Fath-al-Bari]

Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130, Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images (suwar).


Alternative translation 2:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...QR=49844&dgn=4

But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that ?Aa?ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: ?I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I had female friends who would play with me?? al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440.

Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was stated by ?Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted the sale of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for young girls to play with toys?


Alternative translation 3:
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm

Aaishah said, ?I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah's Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called them to play with me.?

In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree, Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalaanee wrote the following: ?This hadeeth is used as evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making images. ?Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children??

Note the great similarity in the commentaries of Ibn Hajar in Fateh al-Bari all four versions of the hadith. The words are different because of the different translators but the essential message is unchanged ? only little girls (i.e. before puberty) are permitted to play with dolls.

Condense that to a few lines, I is serious, we ain't be reading all of that if you don't.

[Rugs2007]

Originally Posted by NegroGentleman

Condense that to a few lines, I is serious, we ain't be reading all of that if you don't.

they are 3 different translations that all lead to the same conclusion that a girl that plays with dolls is pre-pubescent

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by Weightaholic

Is playing with dolls haram under Islam for pre-pubescents?

No.

[NegroGentleman]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

No.

Is it alright to play with pre-pubescents, like while bathing in a bath tub, in your religion?

I is just asking a legitmate question, please take offense not.

[Weightaholic]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

No.

Are the translations that Rugs has pulled out incorrect, or from a fringe scholar?

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by Rugs2007

Part 1: Proof that doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent

This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, said regarding doll-playing and little girls:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

How do we know that Ibn Hajar made the doll-playing exegesis: ?The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty??

Because of the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and because when we look at other translations of Bukhari 8:151, the same message is conveyed.

And I respect the Imam's opinion, but I don't think it gives us the big picture.

A) Playing with dolls doesn't PROVE you haven't gone through puberty, especially when they are not detailed dolls.

B) The prohibition on images/dolls is laxened for youths when it serves an educational/recreational purpose.

C) The most important point is that we do not know if that hadith is BEFORE OR AFTER their marriage. The Prophet (pbuh) used to enter Abu Bakr's (may God be pleased with him) house all the time. They were good friends. And Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was his daughter.

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...=1894&CATE=153

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...=4577&CATE=153

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...11588&CATE=417

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by Weightaholic

Are the translations that Rugs has pulled out incorrect, or from a fringe scholar?

The scholar is excellent. I haven't checked the actual quotes but I don't find them problematic. Read the post above ^.

[NegroGentleman]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

The scholar is excellent. I haven't checked the actual quotes but I don't find them problematic. Read the post above ^.

Why is you avoiding my questions? I reworded it abit, because it was inaccuarete at first.

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by NegroGentleman

Why is you avoiding my questions? I reworded it abit, because it was inaccuarete at first.

Well, hopefully the children you are speaking about are your own children or siblings, and that the "playing" you were talking about is not sexual in nature.

[NegroGentleman]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Well, hopefully the children you are speaking about are your own children or siblings, and that the "playing" you were talking about is not sexual in nature.

Is nothing sexual here, but sometimes I gives me children rides on me lap and bounce them up and down. Is this prohibited in your religion, just playful with children is really all I be asking.

Oh, and they's from me baby mamma's kids, so its alright.