Chechnya

[IraqiGuy]

I would just like to share this article about the situation in Chechnya. That Chechen bodybuilder who posted earlier had to put up with a lot of unwarranted abuse by people in this forum. Anyway, he said he thought his region was forgotten by the rest of world. Also, I feel it substantiate my argument made in other threads that the reasons for terror and radicalization are political.

Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya

Polish writer Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich visited the region where she witnessed the brutal work done by Russia's soldiers in their fight against separatists

Sunday October 27, 2002
The Observer

At 5am on 14 April 2002, an armoured vehicle moved slowly down Soviet Street. A young brown-haired man, covered in blood, his hands and feet bound, stood onboard. The vehicle stopped and the man was pushed off and brought over to a nearby chain-link fence. The car took off and there was a loud bang. The force of the explosion, caused either by a grenade or dynamite, sent the man's head flying into the neighbouring street, called Lenin's Commandments. 'It was difficult to photograph the moment, though I have grown somewhat accustomed to this,' says a petite greying Chechen woman, who has spent years documenting what Russia calls its 'anti-terrorism campaign'.

Blowing people up, dead or alive, she reports, is the latest tactic introduced by the federal army into the conflict. It was utilised perhaps most effectively on 3 July in the village of Meskyer Yurt, where 21 men, women and children were bound together and blown up, their remains thrown into a ditch.

From the perspective of the perpetrators, this method of killing is highly practical; it prevents the number of bodies from being counted, or possibly from ever being found. It has not always succeeded in this respect, however. Since the spring, dogs have been digging up body parts in various corners of Chechnya, sometimes almost daily.

Meanwhile, the more traditional methods endure. On 9 September the bodies of six men from Krasnostepnovskoye were found, naked, with plastic bags wrapped around their heads. In June, a ditch containing 50 mutilated bodies was discovered near the Russian army post in Chankala. The corpses were missing eyes, ears, limbs and genitals. Since February, mass graves have been found near Grozny, Chechen Yurt, Alkhan-Kala and Argun.

For nearly 10 years, since the beginning of the first war in December 1994, the grey-haired woman has been patrolling with her camera. She shows the gruesome images strewn on her table as if they were relics, or photographs from a family album. She runs her hand over the contours of an actual cracked skull, one of about a dozen found in February between Meskyer Yurt and Chechen Yurt.

'The remains were unearthed not long after they died,' she says. 'The tissue was still in good shape. The torn pieces of flesh suggest that the victims were attacked by dogs. It's difficult to know. People don't want to talk. They are scared that they will be next.'

The Society for Russian-Chechen Relations, in collaboration with Human Rights Watch, reports that in the span of a month between 15 July and 15 August this year, 59 civilians were shot dead, 64 were abducted, 168 were seriously wounded and 298 were tortured. Many men simply disappeared after being detained by Russian soldiers or security police; others were shot outright. During an operation in Chechen Aul between 21 May and 11 June, 22 men were killed. The majority were aged 20 to 26; two were 15.

Since Chechen Aul is considered hostile territory, it has undergone 20 such 'mopping-up operations' this year. Usually the raids are conducted by federal armed forces (particularly OMON, the police special forces, and Spetsnaz, its army equivalent) and occur at any time of day or night. Typically a village will be encircled by tanks, armoured vehicles and army trucks, one of which, known as the purification car, is designated for torture. According to Human Rights Watch in New York, torture is a preferred method of gathering intelligence. Cut off and isolated, Russian troops' best hope of discovering guerrilla activity is by grabbing citizens, almost at random, and coercing from them whatever information they might have.

In its most benign form, such raids are limited to theft of personal property - from cars, refrigerators and television sets to jewellery, clothes, pots and pans, and, of course, money. But they frequently turn ugly. 'They arrived on 23 August at 5am,' says Zuhra from Enikaloi. 'There were about 100 army vehicles, all packed with soldiers. We ran out to meet them with our documents. God forbid you encounter an impatient 'federal'. If you do, then in the best-case scenario you may be tortured or shot dead on the spot. In the worst case, they take you away. About 20 of them, armed to the teeth and wearing masks, climbed into the yard and the house. As always, they were dirty, unshaven and reeking of vodka. They cursed horribly. They shot at our feet. They took my identification papers and started to shred them. I had bought them for 500 roubles. They cost me everything I had. They went to our neighbours' house, the Magomedova family. We heard shots and the screams of 15-year-old Aminat, the sister of Ahmed and Aslanbek. "Let her be!" screamed one of the brothers, "Kill us instead!". Then we heard more shots. Through the window we saw a half-dressed OMON commander lying on top of Aminat. She was covered in blood from the bullet wounds. Another soldier shouted, "Hurry up, Kolya, while she's still warm".'

Sometimes those who survive wish they were dead, as in Zernovodsk this summer, when townspeople say they were chased on to a field and made to watch women being raped. When their men tried to defend them, 68 of them were handcuffed to an armoured truck and raped too. After this episode, 45 of them joined the guerrillas in the mountains. One older man, Nurdi Dayeyev, who was nearly blind, had nails driven through his hands and feet because it was suspected that he was in contact with the fighters. When relatives later retrieved his remains, he was missing a hand. The relatives of another villager, Aldan Manayev, picked up a torso but no head. The families were forced to sign declarations that Dayeyev and Manayev had blown themselves up.

Usually groups of people simply disappear. Shortly thereafter their families begin feverish searches in all the army headquarters and watch posts. If they can track down a missing family member, they might be able to buy him or her back. The going rate for a live person is in the thousands of dollars. For a dead body, the price is not much lower. If they cannot find the person, family members mail letters to Putin (Russia's president) and file petitions with social organisations and rights groups. They post photographs with the caption missing.

And they wait. Most of the abductees never return and the trail grows cold.

Those who do return are often crippled, with bruised kidneys and lungs, damaged hearing or eyesight and broken bones. It is almost certain they will never have children.

The Russians do not deny that these things happen. Indeed, an official order has been issued banning such abuses.

But what most journalistic accounts from the region overlook is the savagery committed by the other side. Anyone considered a 'collaborator' by the guerrillas is subject to abduction for ransom or summary execution. This summer a remote-controlled mine, presumably intended for a Russian military convoy, exploded at a bus stop in the Chechen capital of Grozny, killing 11 civilians, including two children.

Analysts say that guerrilla leader Aslan Maskhadov, once regarded as comparatively secular, has succeeded in consolidating his often fractious forces by welcoming back into his command several rebel commanders regarded as radical Islamists. New rebel videotapes play down nationalist imagery in favour of Islamist symbols.

It all suggests that the brutality of the Russians has also resulted in a growing radicalisation of their opponents.

· Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich, a Polish reporter, filed this dispatch for Newsweek's Polish-language edition.

[rottie]

Yeah. Everyone knows the Russians are doing it, and there are some BRUTAL rebels in Chechnya doing things that are just as bad if not worse.

Its a bad situation on both sides, so dont lay ALL the blame at the feet of the Russian government, nor at the feet of the Chechnyan rebels.

The article you posted puts spin on it one way, the footage I saw of a Russian soldier having his head cut off with a buck knife by a coward put a spin on it the other way.

They are BOTH at fault.

[ElShaddai4EvR]

I understand how ya feel. Ever read the book 'My Jihad' by Aukai Collins? Aukai (or Aqil) was an American who converted to Islam and then went to Chechnya to fight jihad. The stories that he tells are frightening. There was one such instance where he tells of russian fighter bombers deliberately targeting civilians and market places. And yea, there are so many widespread reports of atrocities done by Russian forces, that it boggles my mind how anybody can not hate the way the Russians are fighting this war.

Yea, there are some Chechen guerrillas who have done horrible things, but by and large, the Chechen mujahideen don't go around 'raping and pillaging kafir women', in the words of one mujahid.

The Russian gov't claims they are fighting a war against terrorism, but with all respect they could be fighting this war with more humanity and decency.

And why doesn't CNN or Fox report the numerous bombings of marketplaces and civilian bombings by Russian fighter bombers?

The Chechens are some of the bravest people in the world. How they can go through all of this, 2 wars in such a short amount of time, is beyond me. If I was a Chechen and I routinely witnessed Russian soldiers raping and pillaging my women, I would've done exactly what Shamil Baisyev did. Gather a group of 200 mujahideen and millions of Russian currency and drive straight through the motherland buying off every Russian at every checkpoint, until I got to the Kremlin itself. Unfortunetely, Shamil only got half-way.

Things aren't the same without Ibn ul-Khattab.

[Crimson-Model]

Chechnya has always been one of the most seriously ****ed up places in the world. Wonder why the U.S has not put much attention towards this area....this whole world is ****ed up...sometimes i just feel really glad that i'm here in canada.

[dave22]

Originally posted by Crimson-Model
Chechnya has always been one of the most seriously ****ed up places in the world. Wonder why the U.S has not put much attention towards this area....this whole world is ****ed up...sometimes i just feel really glad that i'm here in canada.

Must be nice, living it up in paradise while the rest of the world goes straight to hell. Man am I depressing or what?

[Starsky]

It seems like 90% of the worlds conflicts are where the border of Islam meets the border of the rest of the world...think about it. I was looking at a map of the world, and all the symbols for a conflict were on the edges of predominately Muslim countries.

[Stri8tions]

Originally posted by Starsky
It seems like 90% of the worlds conflicts are where the border of Islam meets the border of the rest of the world...think about it. I was looking at a map of the world, and all the symbols for a conflict were on the edges of predominately Muslim countries.

Its because Muslims arent as "peaceful" as people try to tell us...The general public is just too PC to talk about the general destruction caused by Islam...

[rottie]

Originally posted by dave22
Must be nice, living it up in paradise while the rest of the world goes straight to hell. Man am I depressing or what?

Canada = Paradise ..

You are correct.

[seanconnery]

Originally posted by rottie
Canada = Paradise ..

You are correct.

Cheap pharmaceuticals...mmm.

[rottie]

Originally posted by ElShaddai4EvR
I understand how ya feel. Ever read the book 'My Jihad' by Aukai Collins? Aukai (or Aqil) was an American who converted to Islam and then went to Chechnya to fight jihad. The stories that he tells are frightening. There was one such instance where he tells of russian fighter bombers deliberately targeting civilians and market places. And yea, there are so many widespread reports of atrocities done by Russian forces, that it boggles my mind how anybody can not hate the way the Russians are fighting this war.

Yea, there are some Chechen guerrillas who have done horrible things, but by and large, the Chechen mujahideen don't go around 'raping and pillaging kafir women', in the words of one mujahid.

The Russian gov't claims they are fighting a war against terrorism, but with all respect they could be fighting this war with more humanity and decency.

And why doesn't CNN or Fox report the numerous bombings of marketplaces and civilian bombings by Russian fighter bombers?

The Chechens are some of the bravest people in the world. How they can go through all of this, 2 wars in such a short amount of time, is beyond me. If I was a Chechen and I routinely witnessed Russian soldiers raping and pillaging my women, I would've done exactly what Shamil Baisyev did. Gather a group of 200 mujahideen and millions of Russian currency and drive straight through the motherland buying off every Russian at every checkpoint, until I got to the Kremlin itself. Unfortunetely, Shamil only got half-way.

Things aren't the same without Ibn ul-Khattab.

Yeah I'm sure the guerrilas wouldnt rape some Russian women if they had a chance.. If they would cut a ****in soldiers head off with a goddamn buck knife and video tape it, or have their women strap explosives to themselves to blow everything up, they obviously dont think too damn much of human life anyways.

I dont agree with the way the Russians are treating women, and children, but as far as the rebels go, kill em all and let Allah sort em out. Its a rogue state that has to be brought under control, and is a hotbed for terrorists. Where terrorists are concerned, I have no pity for them. **** em.

[Ihateeveryone]

Its a two sided conflict - much like Israel and Palestine. One antagonises, the other retaliates, and the antagonists then counter attack. Its a never ending viscious cycle, and both sides are equally responsible for what is happening. But if the people being tortured and slaughtered are terrorists who are fighting for the sake of disrupting a situation which can be resolved peacefully, keep on doing so - if they are not taken care of, they will continue to do so themselves. They have this affinity for trying to force their beliefs and ways on people who are not interested - they deserve whatever comes to em.

[Gettin_big]

IraqiGuy,
Why all of your posts have to deal the same topic - "muslims suffer..." ?
Not a single post about BB.

[shotgunjoe]

.

[rottie]

Originally posted by shotgunjoe
ya know what sucks? im half palestinian ( dad's side) and half chechn ( mom's side), im like the perfect refugee... or extremist for that matter, not that i'd ever fight in the name of religon...
im NOT a terrorist supporter, shutup..
do the chechens have oil? the gulf has oil but the yanks have a frim grip on saudi and probably iraq...
i also once read an article on chechnya saying that soldiers would tie people up put them in a helicopter and drop them from a certain height so that they wouldnt die instantly... thats pretty barbaric...
im sure the russians have done worse to the chechens, just cause you saw that one clip with the buck kinfe doesnt make the chechens the ****ed up ones, besides if you were in their situation would you just bend over and take it up the ass?didn't think so!

I SAID the Russians werent innocent either. You blind or just dumb?

I've read about what the Russians are doing Sparky. I know its just as barbaric as what the rebels are doing.

What I SAID was when it comes to the REBELS themselves, kill them all. They are terrorists, and terrorists deserve to die. No matter what religion or region they are in.

[JoeJoeJoe]

My dad lives in Georgia, which borders Chechnya.

[shotgunjoe]

.

[omariok2]

Originally posted by Starsky
It seems like 90% of the worlds conflicts are where the border of Islam meets the border of the rest of the world...think about it. I was looking at a map of the world, and all the symbols for a conflict were on the edges of predominately Muslim countries.

god damn man shut up thats so ignorant
think how many wars all the arab countries have been in in the last 100 years and how many america(christian country)has been in
Americas been in over 40 wars, invasions or bombing runs in the last century ok so lets not be hypocrtical

[rottie]

Originally posted by shotgunjoe
from what most ppl say the general tone of this thread is that the chechens are wrong... they're not! so screw you!

o yeah and dont call me sparky dickhead!

Yeah whatever Sparky. Blow me.

[shotgunjoe]

dickhead.

[rottie]

Originally posted by shotgunjoe
dickhead.

Terrorist.

[decypheredbeats]

Originally posted by Gettin_big
IraqiGuy,
Why all of your posts have to deal the same topic - "muslims suffer..." ?
Not a single post about BB.

Yes i have noticed this as well.

[shlang]

Hey guys maybee you all have forgoten that the Russians are only doing what you Americans call a war on terrorism a war for freedom. Just lust week checen rebels killed 15 people and injured over 30 people in Moscow at a rock concert. The checen soldiers have gone to Albania and Afganistan to suport Bin Ladens troops. So i say **** them Russia should have nuked them a long time ago.

[IraqiGuy]

Originally posted by Gettin_big
IraqiGuy,
Why all of your posts have to deal the same topic - "muslims suffer..." ?
Not a single post about BB.

lol. I'm not that bad Alex. I have posted pictures of my progress in the appropriate forum and have posted in some other bodybuilding threads. But I just discovered these political threads in the misc section and felt like voicing my opinions.

[dave22]

Originally posted by Gettin_big
IraqiGuy,
Why all of your posts have to deal the same topic - "muslims suffer..." ?
Not a single post about BB.

Hey man, back off Iraqiguy, he at least posts facts, instead of crap like yeah Ameriaca's number one, lets go bomb us some arabs, yeah man. I don't even really know the situation in this Chechyna.

[Gettin_big]

Originally posted by IraqiGuy
lol. I'm not that bad Alex. I have posted pictures of my progress in the appropriate forum and have posted in some other bodybuilding threads. But I just discovered these political threads in the misc section and felt like voicing my opinions.

Oh cool.
Just to let you know, I didnt mean to insult you or something like that.
I respect you.

[Starsky]

Originally posted by omariok2
god damn man shut up thats so ignorant
think how many wars all the arab countries have been in in the last 100 years and how many america(christian country)has been in
Americas been in over 40 wars, invasions or bombing runs in the last century ok so lets not be hypocrtical

Yes, only unlike the muslim countries, the wars America fought were actually right. By the way, I was referring to current conflicts. If what I said wasn't true, you may have actually had a point.

[ElShaddai4EvR]

I dont agree with the way the Russians are treating women, and children, but as far as the rebels go, kill em all and let Allah sort em out. Its a rogue state that has to be brought under control, and is a hotbed for terrorists. Where terrorists are concerned, I have no pity for them. **** em.

Yea, but if the Russian government were honestly trying to fight this war in an honourable way, way have their been 80,000 (mostly civilian) causalties since 99. There have been 180,000 causaulties since 94, and since the first Russo-Chechen war, either half the population has been displaced or killed. How many Russians have the Chechans killed? The figure is not worth mentioning in light of Chechan figures. It seems to me that the Russians are much more concerned about keeping Chechnya as theirs as oppossed to hunting terrorists.

[IraqiGuy]

Originally posted by Gettin_big
Oh cool.
Just to let you know, I didnt mean to insult you or something like that.
I respect you.

None taken. The wonders of the internet ... Arabs and Israelis discussing politics from a safe distance, hundreds of miles away.

[tre14]

Originally posted by Crimson-Model
Chechnya has always been one of the most seriously ****ed up places in the world. Wonder why the U.S has not put much attention towards this area....this whole world is ****ed up...sometimes i just feel really glad that i'm here in canada.

Anything with Russia is touchy.


What are you talking about? Canada is ****ed up.

[omariok2]

Originally posted by Starsky
Yes, only unlike the muslim countries, the wars America fought were actually right. By the way, I was referring to current conflicts. If what I said wasn't true, you may have actually had a point.

right in whos opinion? as you may have noticed there was widespread protests to the war indicating that not everyone agreed , in fact most people didnt agree with it and
Also if youve been following the news you may have noticed that the british are raising hell because theyv finally caught on to the fact that they were misled, are not afraid to admit (unlike america) and Blair looks like hes about to lose his job

Another thing youve neglected to consider is the fact that maybe their right as well

Also 100 years is pretty recent and if you dont wana admit that than at least admit 50 years is and that americas had over 50 in the last 50 years