christians: free will is a joke

[AKR]

ok, folks. let's have another conversation about free will. i'm not even going to address the whole logical fallacy of an omnipotent/omniscient god creating people with free will. let's look at it from another perspective. not so much the idea of free will being impossible in the technical sense, but the idea of your version of free will being anything of value.

it seems as though christians are ok with rape. first off, what is rape?

dictionary.com:
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
6. to force to have sexual intercourse.

now, let's look up the word "duress," which is used in the first definition of "rape."

1. compulsion by threat or force; coercion; constraint.

hmm, so apparently, even if you are given a choice (i.e. let me f*ck you, or you can take a bullet in the head), it is still considered rape, if the alternative is considered threatening/undesirable.

but you must be ok with rape, since the person is actually given a choice. that's all that seems to matter to you.

so, in a way, if the christian god is real, he is raping your soul. that's right. he's giving you two choices, but the alternative to what he wants is threatening and undesirable. "obey me, and give me your soul to keep with me, or i'll kill you and damn you for eternity."

what good is free will if you are punished for making your own choices? what's the worth in having options when any option god doesn't desire is met with punishment? so what is the point of free will, in this scenario? why do you christians act like you're god is so f*cking wonderful for allowing you to have free will when you are punished for choosing anything other than what he wants you to do?

it's a bit like a company going into a 3rd world country and saying, "hi folks! you can come work for us for $2 an hour...or we can torture and kill you."

or, since, in your view, the choice of god is something good, so let's say the company comes in and says, "hi folks! we have great benefits. you will work hard, but the retirement plan is awesome. you don't have to work for us, but we're killing off those who turn us down. and yes, that includes babies (don't forget the flood). have a nice day!"

would you think that's a nice boss? would you respect and admire a boss that gave you choices like that, and consider it fair? would you think you have much of a choice? would you feel free, or would you feel like a slave? are you ok with slavery AND rape? i mean, they have their choices, so it's all fair and well, right?

i have more, but i have a feeling you folks will never even address all i have already posted, but i'll post this anyway for others, so they can be aware of this scripture if they aren't already.

exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

.....uh oh. houston: we have a problem. where is the free will in this picture?

oh, and i'm sure i'm taking things out of context, because, that's just what i love to do. but i'm going to continue doing it because i don't know any better. why not? because christians can never put things into a context in which these things mean anything different (unless, of course, they change the definition of words to mean what they don't really mean). so that's their fault. shame on them.









in before the lock.

[Juels]

It says in the bible that when we become christians, we become servants to God, our free will is replaced with his will. Would you agree that mankind in general is immoral? As men our only desire is to please our bodies, as a result our world is fallen, and has been fallen since the beginning of man. In the bible is states what is desirable for man is repulsive to God, Paul said it best.

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 10:23

You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial. 24 Don’t be concerned for your own good but for the good of others

[Popsicle52]

the christian response to this is that god can influence thought with murder, etc. but can't directly control it.

[AKR]

Originally Posted by Juels

It says in the bible that when we become christians, we become servants to God, our free will is replaced with his will. Would you agree that mankind in general is immoral? As men our only desire is to please our bodies, as a result our world is fallen, and has been fallen since the beginning of man. In the bible is states what is desirable for man is repulsive to God, Paul said it best.

ok, so you don't believe in free will. then this thread isn't directed at someone like you, since i was addressing those that say we have free will.

either way, if what you say is true, and our will is replaced with god's will, then how come i am an atheist now? i grew up in a christian family and believed in god. i was a christian, but i became an atheist. if god was in control, then he made me an atheist?

[ballsoftitanium]

I read an intersting article in the paper today.

It was about a woman in a beauty pageant who had the same name as another girl who was on trial for stabbing a man who tried to rape her. This woman was collecting signatures for a petition to have the girl who had the same name as her released from prison.

Apparently, this woman was attacked by three men who were trying to rape her, for some reason she was carrying a knife and managed to fend off her attackers but her problems weren't over there. I'm not sure where this took place but wherever it was the penalty for a woman stabbing a man is death, this woman was going to be put to death for defending herself against rape.

And that's not the best (worst) part, if this woman had let the men rape her she would have been sentenced to 200 lashes for having premarital sex. If she had been married she would have ben stoned to death for adultery.

That was absolutely, unequivocally the most ****ed up **** i had ever heard in my life. There are people (or whatever the **** you want to call them) who, because of a certain religion, believe that doing that kind of thing to someone is alright.

If i could i would persoanlly feed every single on of those sick pieces of **** through a wood chipper.

So much for religion being the basis for our moral code.

[AKR]

Originally Posted by ballsoftitanium

I read an intersting article in the paper today.

It was about a woman in a beauty pageant who had the same name as another girl who was on trial for stabbing a man who tried to rape her. This woman was collecting signatures for a petition to have the girl who had the same name as her released from prison.

Apparently, this woman was attacked by three men who were trying to rape her, for some reason she was carrying a knife and managed to fend off her attackers but her problems weren't over there. I'm not sure where this took place but wherever it was the penalty for a woman stabbing a man is death, this woman was going to be put to death for defending herself against rape.

And that's not the best (worst) part, if this woman had let the men rape her she would have been sentenced to 200 lashes for having premarital sex. If she had been married she would have ben stoned to death for adultery.

That was absolutely, unequivocally the most ****ed up **** i had ever heard in my life. There are people (or whatever the **** you want to call them) who, because of a certain religion, believe that doing that kind of thing to someone is alright.

If i could i would persoanlly feed every single on of those sick pieces of **** through a wood chipper.

So much for religion being the basis for our moral code.

and i would provide the garbage bags. some of these religions of "love and peace" are really quite brutal and disgusting when you get a good look at them. not all people who are part of these religions are this way, but the scriptures they pick and choose from are.

[Popsicle52]

Originally Posted by AKR

ok, so you don't believe in free will. then this thread isn't directed at someone like you, since i was addressing those that say we have free will.

either way, if what you say is true, and our will is replaced with god's will, then how come i am an atheist now? i grew up in a christian family and believed in god. i was a christian, but i became an atheist. if god was in control, then he made me an atheist?

god works in mysterious ways

[ballsoftitanium]

Originally Posted by AKR

and i would provide the garbage bags. some of these religions of "love and peace" are really quite brutal and disgusting when you get a good look at them. not all people who are part of these religions are this way, but the scriptures they pick and choose from are.

No, you're right. Not all religions are like that and most of the time our basic human decency that evolution has programmed us with will step in and see to it that things like this don't happen very often.

But it still disgusts me to know that things like that still take place.

[Juels]

Originally Posted by AKR

ok, so you don't believe in free will. then this thread isn't directed at someone like you, since i was addressing those that say we have free will.

either way, if what you say is true, and our will is replaced with god's will, then how come i am an atheist now? i grew up in a christian family and believed in god. i was a christian, but i became an atheist. if god was in control, then he made me an atheist?

I highly doubt you were Christian, I assume you mean some traditional super religious denomination for example Catholisism, Baptist, or even Charismatics. Religion won't save you, I like the quote in someone's sig by Billy Graham that says, "I believe in Christ, not christianity". So true. You were never really saved, remember who killed Jesus? That's right, religious people killed him, people who prayed, worshipped, fasted, and did the whole 9 yards killed Jesus.

[Pro-Pain]

Originally Posted by AKR

what good is free will if you are punished for making your own choices?

So would you rather be a mindless robot serving God for eternity? That's the only other possibility.

Originally Posted by AKR

i'm not even going to address the whole logical fallacy of an omnipotent/omniscient god creating people with free will.

This 'paradox' is just an incomprehension of God's qualities, kind of like the notion of eternity.

[Pro-Pain]

Originally Posted by AKR

.....uh oh. houston: we have a problem. where is the free will in this picture?

He had free will in the beginning, but chose his own way. Now, God is just reinforcing the consequence of his predetermined action.

[ballsoftitanium]

Originally Posted by Pro-Pain

So would you rather be a mindless robot serving God for eternity? That's the only other possibility.


This 'paradox' is just an incomprehension of God's qualities, kind of like the notion of eternity.

Or, he could just not send us to hell for not believing in him.

Think much?

[AKR]

Originally Posted by Juels

I highly doubt you were Christian, I assume you mean some traditional super religious denomination for example Catholisism, Baptist, or even Charismatics.

you can doubt all you want, but it doesn't make it any less true. what reason do you have to doubt me? do you believe all people who claim to have deconverted from christianity to be lying? my family is non-denominational. they are what i consider "fundies."

oh, and catholicism is full of some of the most half-assed people ever. my gf was one and her family still is.

Religion won't save you, I like the quote in someone's sig by Billy Graham that says, "I believe in Christ, not christianity". So true. You were never really saved, remember who killed Jesus? That's right, religious people killed him, people who prayed, worshipped, fasted, and did the whole 9 yards killed Jesus.

why do you say i was never really saved? that doesn't make any sense. i believed in god; i believed jesus was the son of god; i tried to obey the rules of the bible (however confusing they are) and i loved god. you're just saying **** without putting any kind of reasoning behind it.

and i hate that quote, and the whole "i don't have a religion; i have a personal relationship with jesus." it's wrong. people like this don't know how to read dictionaries.

[AKR]

Originally Posted by Pro-Pain

So would you rather be a mindless robot serving God for eternity? That's the only other possibility.

no it's not. he could just not create us in the first place, since he's not really giving us much of a choice anyway. how are you any better than a mindless robot when you are THREATENED and FORCED into submission? is this the reality you want?

anways, according to another christian in this thread, you don't even have free will once you choose god. you are under his will. maybe you should discuss this with him.

and how do you have free will in heaven, if you are unable to sin? the angels were allowed to choose to sin and side with satan, but once in heaven, you cannot. correct? there is no more sin in heaven. correct? where is the free will when you are unable to choose that which displeases god?

This 'paradox' is just an incomprehension of God's qualities, kind of like the notion of eternity.

no, it's really not. the incomprehension lies in those who don't understand the logical fallacy. but as i said, this thread is not for that discussion, as people just don't get it.

[AKR]

Originally Posted by Pro-Pain

He had free will in the beginning, but chose his own way. Now, God is just reinforcing the consequence of his predetermined action.

oh, so once you make one wrong choice, god can step in and sin FOR you? please, tell me more about this ridiculous concept.

do you know what the word "predetermined" means? it certainly has no place in the definition of free will.

[~Serpent~]

"Causality Ignores The Persecutory Illusions Of Free Will"

[renglander]

You have free will at your work for example. If you decide to do what they say and conform to their policies, then you have taken on their will not your own. Or you can change your mind, once you make a choice on anything in life, you must reep the rewards or consequences of making that choice which means you have given up your free will.

[renglander]

Originally Posted by AKR

oh, so once you make one wrong choice, god can step in and sin FOR you? please, tell me more about this ridiculous concept.

do you know what the word "predetermined" means? it certainly has no place in the definition of free will.

The Bible states that Jesus died on the cross for all our sins. That those who have accepted His Will for their life, are forgiven of their sins as long as they follow His ways and teachings. Granted we are made on sinful flesh, but christians can repent for their sins and be forgiven. And NO THIS IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN.

[powerman2000]

Originally Posted by AKR

it seems as though christians are ok with rape. first off, what is rape?

I never considered you as an idiot until now.

[SteR-]

Originally Posted by AKR

ok, folks. let's have another conversation about free will. i'm not even going to address the whole logical fallacy of an omnipotent/omniscient god creating people with free will. let's look at it from another perspective. not so much the idea of free will being impossible in the technical sense, but the idea of your version of free will being anything of value.

it seems as though christians are ok with rape. first off, what is rape?

dictionary.com:
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
6. to force to have sexual intercourse.

now, let's look up the word "duress," which is used in the first definition of "rape."

1. compulsion by threat or force; coercion; constraint.

hmm, so apparently, even if you are given a choice (i.e. let me f*ck you, or you can take a bullet in the head), it is still considered rape, if the alternative is considered threatening/undesirable.

but you must be ok with rape, since the person is actually given a choice. that's all that seems to matter to you.

so, in a way, if the christian god is real, he is raping your soul. that's right. he's giving you two choices, but the alternative to what he wants is threatening and undesirable. "obey me, and give me your soul to keep with me, or i'll kill you and damn you for eternity."

what good is free will if you are punished for making your own choices? what's the worth in having options when any option god doesn't desire is met with punishment? so what is the point of free will, in this scenario? why do you christians act like you're god is so f*cking wonderful for allowing you to have free will when you are punished for choosing anything other than what he wants you to do?

it's a bit like a company going into a 3rd world country and saying, "hi folks! you can come work for us for $2 an hour...or we can torture and kill you."

or, since, in your view, the choice of god is something good, so let's say the company comes in and says, "hi folks! we have great benefits. you will work hard, but the retirement plan is awesome. you don't have to work for us, but we're killing off those who turn us down. and yes, that includes babies (don't forget the flood). have a nice day!"

would you think that's a nice boss? would you respect and admire a boss that gave you choices like that, and consider it fair? would you think you have much of a choice? would you feel free, or would you feel like a slave? are you ok with slavery AND rape? i mean, they have their choices, so it's all fair and well, right?

i have more, but i have a feeling you folks will never even address all i have already posted, but i'll post this anyway for others, so they can be aware of this scripture if they aren't already.



.....uh oh. houston: we have a problem. where is the free will in this picture?

oh, and i'm sure i'm taking things out of context, because, that's just what i love to do. but i'm going to continue doing it because i don't know any better. why not? because christians can never put things into a context in which these things mean anything different (unless, of course, they change the definition of words to mean what they don't really mean). so that's their fault. shame on them.









in before the lock.

You're twisting the situation a bit here AKR. You're making out that the two options are a) you're screwed b) you're screwed even more. That's not the case and you know it.

[JBDW]

Originally Posted by SteR-

You're twisting the situation a bit here AKR. You're making out that the two options are a) you're screwed b) you're screwed even more. That's not the case and you know it.

Would you mind elaborating? I don't really how that's what he's argument relies on.


IMO, there is a valid point that actions committed under duress can never be said to be 'free' actions, so to speak. The problem is, however, that virtually every action can be technically said to be committed under duress. And that's where the problem lies.

[SteR-]

Originally Posted by JBDW

Would you mind elaborating? I don't really how that's what he's argument relies on.


IMO, there is a valid point that actions committed under duress can never be said to be 'free' actions, so to speak. The problem is, however, that virtually every action can be technically said to be committed under duress. And that's where the problem lies.

Well I get the impression that AKR is portraying the service of God as some sort of miserable duty.. almost like we're slaves being forced to act against our will. If you consider the fact that God is the greatest, kindest, most loving force in our existence then it's not really a duty is it? If you for one instance, consider God as a relative who you truly love.. I dunno.. like your mum, dad or grandparent (x100000).. serving/helping them isn't really a duty is it? You do what they ask because you love them so much that it's not a service really is it?

God basically provides with the choice to either "serve" Him (I don't really like the word serve.. maybe love him is a better word?) or you can choose to turn your back on Him and walk away..

[JBDW]

Originally Posted by SteR-

Well I get the impression that AKR is portraying the service of God as some sort of miserable duty.. almost like we're slaves being forced to act against our will. If you consider the fact that God is the greatest, kindest, most loving force in our existence then it's not really a duty is it? If you for one instance, consider God as a relative who you truly love.. I dunno.. like your mum, dad or grandparent (x100000).. serving/helping them isn't really a duty is it? You do what they ask because you love them so much that it's not a service really is it?

God basically provides with the choice to either "serve" Him (I don't really like the word serve.. maybe love him is a better word?) or you can choose to turn your back on Him and walk away..

Arguable. If it was a choice between serving my parents or being tortured painfully for an eternity, can you tell me that it's really a free choice? A choice can only be considered 'free' if there is no duress involved. And if you believe in a God who supports eternal punishment i.e. hell, then surely you can see how it is also valid to argue that there is also the equivalent of a gun pointed to your head no matter what.

[SteR-]

Originally Posted by JBDW

Arguable. If it was a choice between serving my parents or being tortured painfully for an eternity, can you tell me that it's really a free choice? A choice can only be considered 'free' if there is no duress involved. And if you believe in a God who supports eternal punishment i.e. hell, then surely you can see how it is also valid to argue that there is also the equivalent of a gun pointed to your head no matter what.

duress = thread or force according to AKR's definition. How are you being threatened or forced? You can choose! Try not to think of hell as a place where you're sent to and think of it more as the opposite of not being with God. You either walk towards the light or you actively choose to stay in the darkness. God is not sending you there.. you choose to turn away from Him into the darkness.

It's this idea that serving/loving God is somehow painful or a punishment.. it's not! - it's the complete opposite.

[farmerlee]

Originally Posted by JBDW

Arguable. If it was a choice between serving my parents or being tortured painfully for an eternity, can you tell me that it's really a free choice? A choice can only be considered 'free' if there is no duress involved. And if you believe in a God who supports eternal punishment i.e. hell, then surely you can see how it is also valid to argue that there is also the equivalent of a gun pointed to your head no matter what.

No one is forcing you to choose anything, least of all god. As i have clearly said many times before, we are all have free will but, we are not free to escape the consequences of our decisions

[IceDragon]

AKR, you're going to hell.

















Apparently so I am, so I'll see you there and get you a beer and a hooker for a couple of nights because I'm nice like that.

[JBDW]

Originally Posted by SteR-

duress = thread or force according to AKR's definition. How are you being threatened or forced? You can choose! Try not to think of hell as a place where you're sent to and think of it more as the opposite of not being with God. You either walk towards the light or you actively choose to stay in the darkness. God is not sending you there.. you choose to turn away from Him into the darkness.

It's this idea that serving/loving God is somehow painful or a punishment.. it's not! - it's the complete opposite.

I never argued that serving/loving God is painful or anything of the sort, let me make it clear. I am merely arguing the case of the opposition when referring to the 'free will' to disobey.

You are sent to the darkness precisely because you did not obey. And given that the darkness is described in all instances as being a place of great suffering, how is that not a threat?

Originally Posted by farmerlee

No one is forcing you to choose anything, least of all god. As i have clearly said many times before, we are all have free will but, we are not free to escape the consequences of our decisions

If I point a gun at your head and tell you to give me all your money, do you have the free will to refuse? Or are you being coerced? Likewise, the threat of hell is in itself a form of coercion and hence duress.

[SteR-]

Originally Posted by JBDW

I never argued that serving/loving God is painful or anything of the sort, let me make it clear. I am merely arguing the case of the opposition when referring to the 'free will' to disobey.

You are sent to the darkness precisely because you did not obey. And given that the darkness is described in all instances as being a place of great suffering, how is that not a threat?



If I point a gun at your head and tell you to give me all your money, do you have the free will to refuse? Or are you being coerced? Likewise, the threat of hell is in itself a form of coercion and hence duress.

nonono. This is the point I'm trying to make.. you're not being SENT to hell. You're CHOOSING to go to hell! Think of it as having 2 doors in front of you.. you either choose to love God and walk through door A or you choose to ignore God and walk through door B.

It's this idea that God is some ******* that sits on His throne and says "If you don't do what I say then you can fk off to hell". God isn't threatening anyone, he's giving them a choice.

[SteR-]

Originally Posted by farmerlee

No one is forcing you to choose anything, least of all god. As i have clearly said many times before, we are all have free will but, we are not free to escape the consequences of our decisions

precisely.

[JBDW]

Originally Posted by SteR-

nonono. This is the point I'm trying to make.. you're not being SENT to hell. You're CHOOSING to go to hell! Think of it as having 2 doors in front of you.. you either choose to love God and walk through door A or you choose to ignore God and walk through door B.

Again, the mere existence of hell already connotes a form of threatening and coercion. God created the scenario and set the rules. To speak as if he has no role whatsoever in your eventual choice is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by -Ster

It's this idea that God is some ******* that sits on His throne and says "If you don't do what I say then you can fk off to hell". God isn't threatening anyone, he's giving them a choice.

Actually that is exactly the impression I'm getting.

"If you don't do what I say and believe in me, you can **** off to hell.", expressed less strongly, seems to be the message being spread.

Since you didn't bother with addressing the loaded gun analogy, let's try a different tack. Are you familiar with the SAW movies? Jigsaw sets up elaborate scenarios for his victims, and leaves them to find their own way out, after informing them of the relevant rules and options. Let's go with one of the more graphic ones: A bear trap around your head. The only way to remove the bear trap is to dig out your own eyeball and find the key that is hidden behind the eyeball. If you fail to do so within a span of say 1 minute, the bear trap will clamp shut onto your head, and you die.

Again, by your logic, Jigsaw has absolutely zero culpability and should take zero blame, because he gave them the choice. To dig out their own eyeballs within a time limit and live, or die in excruciating pain. Never mind the fact that he was the one who set up the scenario for them in the first place, because he gave them a choice he is innocent. This is what you're essentially telling me.

I advise you in advance not to commit the error of looking purely at the scenario of the analogy, and rather address the logic behind it.