I'm a Noob, and I'm having trouble taking advice from a big gym dude..help!

FendersRule · 11-20-2007, 08:27 PM

Well, I've been training for a couple months (A couple years before that). I've been doing 3 x 10 or 4 x 8 primarily for just about all "Main" exercises. I usually do about 5-7 different exercises. For instance Chest Day:

DB Bench
Incline DB Bench
Hammer Bench (Hold the frame, works outer pecs)
Flat DB Flies
Machine Flies
Decline Bench

Anyhow, I was talking to a gym trainer "in training" (He's a really built to **** guy who knows his stuff), and he just about laughed his sox off when I told him how much sets I was doing per body part. Chest day turned about to be about 23 sets or such.

He told me I need to do 3 exercises only and take the reps down, and get it done in 9 sets!

Anyhow, it only took me only a day to realize that what he was saying was true. I have been making really solid gains doing what I've been doing before, but it was time to switch stuff up because my body is starting to expect "more".

Well, yesterday on chest, I tried his method. I used the 5 x 5 / 4 x 6 scheme.

I winded up doing about 15 sets, instead of over 23 sets. I also brought my exercises down to about 3-4, instead of 6-8.

But, he's still kinda "irate" that I'm doing over 9 sets. I did about 15 sets.

But I started thinking more about this, and I came to a conclusion. The conclusion is that for him, with a lot of experience and MASS, it's easy for him to lift ALOT of weight, and be done to 9 sets. He's sort of a power-lifter, but a power-lifter at like, 8 % body fat. So, pretty much a body builder, hehe.

I'm having trouble believing that I can tear the hell out of my muscles completely in only 9 sets WHILE COMPLETING my sets. In order to drop the sets down, I have to bring the weight up even further, and I don't know if I can handle that yet. Either way, I've been getting SORE from doing 15 sets, and it feels that it is working pretty good so far. I really don't know yet. I imagine in a month or so I can start bringing the sets down, and the weight up like he wants.

An Exert:

I know this is less than you usually do, but you still completed about 15 sets. After a warm up, i only do three working sets at each exercise on chest day. However, I do drop sets each of those three sets my first two exercises, but I am still only doing 9 sets total for bench. I would recommend dropping the sets down a little more, and maybe incorporating a few drop sets in there. Also, ALWAYS try to do more weight than you did the previous workout. If you stick with the same weight, try to do one more rep. When I'm training, if I go up 5 pounds or do one more rep than usual on anything, that is a really good day.

Remember to rest between sets, too.

Anyhow, I just completed my lats today, and this is what I did:

(PullUps)
Wide Grips x 8
Medium Grips x 8
Close Grips x 8
Wide Grips x 8
Medium Grips x 8
Close Grips x 8

Pull Down (Long Bar) 4 x 7
Pull Down (Close Grip) 4 x 7

(PullUps)
Wide Grip x 6
Medium Grip x 6
Close Grip x 6

I pulled a lot more weight than I usually do.

Reps for advice, comments, concerns.

jdmalm123 · 11-20-2007, 08:35 PM

The perfect set/rep range for you will be different from anyone else...it will also change over time. It doesn't sound like he's giving you bad advice, per se, but maybe making sure he understands your goals and you understand his angle.

If you want pure mass with an emphasis on strength, he's on track. If you want to focus on sculpting, higher sets/reps might be in order.

Also, you did drop from 23 to 15 sets. The ability to train at the intensity that lets you get enough stimulation from 9 sets may be something you have to work up to. Many people have a steep drop off at the end of their strength curve. For example, maybe you can bench 185 for 12 reps, but can only get 2-3 at 205. In a case like that, you should be careful about lifting at intensities that are always at or near you limits.

As you lift heavier and age, trading volume for intensity is usually advisable as much as it is a necesssity.

mblouir · 11-20-2007, 08:38 PM

^^agreed

Everyone's body is different and will respond to different training volume. Just keep going with what is working for you.

DJINN · 11-20-2007, 08:39 PM

This is gonna be another volume debate...I see it coming from a mile away. I agree with this "trainer" to a point. 23 sets for chest, IMHO, and I stress that this is IMHO, is waaaaay too much. Heck, just as an example, I do a total of 12-14 sets for chest/shoulders/tris! 3 bodyparts done in 12-14 sets, and you're still banging out 15 sets for one! I mean no offense, so please don't take my post in a demeaning way. I can be a smart-ass at times....

The assertion that the longer one trains the heavier one can lift, thus the less sets they need is pure and utter BS. "Heavy" is subjective. What's heavy to me may be light to you. It doesn't matter how long you've been lifting...you can still go "heavy" and kill a bodypart. Just because 100lbs may be heavy to Joe Blow on a benchpress, and Hank the Tank can bang out tons of reps means nothing...Joe's 100lbs is equivalent to Hank's 200lbs in terms of relative "heaviness".

Bottom line is that there has been and will be much to do about volume, rep schemes, sets, etc. and there will continue to be. Everything that anyone can advocate as a shining success, has also been a disasterous failure for someone else. You admit to deriving some benefits already from the lowered volume, so stick with it. It works for you! And ultimately that's what all the noob trial and error is all about...finding what works for you and sticking with it.

Sorry for the rant

Retardo-pex · 11-20-2007, 08:44 PM

9 sets is not going to work for everyone, so if he's saying anything over 9 and its worthless, don't lsiten to him. With that said, its just drastic enough for your normal 23 sets you might want to try it for a while to see how you respond. If you have always trained with high sets like that, lowering the volume like that could be good for you.

Never listen to people that tell you "You have to train like this" that's retarded and its no wonder he's a trainer in training.

Also looking at your back work, I'm assuming you split it up between width thickness during the week? Otherwise you might want to focus a bit more on rowing movements as well. There is no reason why you can't do 7 exercises for one muscle group, the issue is you aren't going to want to do 3-4 sets for all of them. If you did something like 3 sets for move 1, then 2 sets for the other 6, its still a lot better then doing 3-4 sets for everything. You are hitting your chest in basically every way possible, but not overdoing it volume wise.

DJINN · 11-20-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retardo-pex

Never listen to people that tell you "You have to train like this"

QFGDMFT! (Quoted For G**damn Motherf***ing Truth)

FendersRule · 11-20-2007, 08:50 PM

Another Exert:

I use to do a lot of sets for each bodypart too, but i found i was able to make better strength and size gains by reducing the volume. However, while I do fewer sets, i try to make each set more intense. I do this by putting an all-out effort into each set, as well as doing drop sets. I also take long breaks between each set. For example, when doing a pressing movement on the bench, I will take a minimum of 5 minutes in between each set. I know this is longer than most people take, but taking that extra minute or two will allow you to hit each set harder with more intensity. My reps are quite a bit lower than yours for the most part, because i also train for power. Sets on the flat and incline bench rarely go above *, and I consider a set of 6 on the bench as "reps." While doing flys, I keep my reps between 6 and 12, because I feel the fly movement can be dangerous if performed too heavy. For my own training, if my numbers are going up, it means that my muscles are getting bigger.

This style of training takes a while to adjust to. It only works if you put extreme effort into each set, which means you should have a spotter handy.

Good luck,

I do need mass ASAP though. I've started to grab more spotters now. The only thing that frightens me, is not being able to complete a set, that's my "scare" of low reps. But I do see a correlation between low reps and strength gains.

My last chest day, on one of my sets, I was able to complete:

205 x 5
205 x 5
205 x 5
205 x 5
155 x 10

I was sort of impressed I lifted that much like that. That was for the decline bench. Next bench day, I'm going to go 210 @ 5 x 5 on flat bench and give it a go.

I've never tried "Flat" sets like those above, but I think they actually might work good for me.

Thanks guys for the replies. Either way, I've made a change with his advice, and will be working towards reducing sets to increase the intensity.

DJINN · 11-20-2007, 08:53 PM

FendersRule...just take care not to rush your weight increases. Its easy to get overzealous and go gangbusters....only to injure yourself and set-back any progress you've made. Good luck and be careful.

jdmalm123 · 11-20-2007, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJINN

This is gonna be another volume debate...I see it coming from a mile away. I agree with this "trainer" to a point. 23 sets for chest, IMHO, and I stress that this is IMHO, is waaaaay too much. Heck, just as an example, I do a total of 12-14 sets for chest/shoulders/tris! 3 bodyparts done in 12-14 sets, and you're still banging out 15 sets for one! I mean no offense, so please don't take my post in a demeaning way. I can be a smart-ass at times....

The assertion that the longer one trains the heavier one can lift, thus the less sets they need is pure and utter BS. "Heavy" is subjective. What's heavy to me may be light to you. It doesn't matter how long you've been lifting...you can still go "heavy" and kill a bodypart. Just because 100lbs may be heavy to Joe Blow on a benchpress, and Hank the Tank can bang out tons of reps means nothing...Joe's 100lbs is equivalent to Hank's 200lbs in terms of relative "heaviness".

Bottom line is that there has been and will be much to do about volume, rep schemes, sets, etc. and there will continue to be. Everything that anyone can advocate as a shining success, has also been a disasterous failure for someone else. You admit to deriving some benefits already from the lowered volume, so stick with it. It works for you! And ultimately that's what all the noob trial and error is all about...finding what works for you and sticking with it.

Sorry for the rant

I think we are on the same page here...my main concerns for the OP are:

1. He may not be able to get the "typical" number of reps for his desired %RM, so he can keep the volume a little higher until he can.

2. I don't advocate always working toward less and less volume at higher and higher intensities. I am an advocate of sliding reps ranges (overtime). I think true "high volume" programs are just as inappropriate for most lifters as 1RM programs. Usually, anything at the extremes is a concept gone too far and usually not sustainable anyway. The chance of injury on long-term high volume or max intensity is not worth it.

DJINN · 11-20-2007, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmalm123

I think we are on the same page here...my main concerns for the OP are:

1. He may not be able to get the "typical" number of reps for his desired %RM, so he can keep the volume a little higher until he can.

2. I don't advocate always working toward less and less volume at higher and higher intensities. I am an advocate of sliding reps ranges (overtime). I think true "high volume" programs are just as inappropriate for most lifters as 1RM programs. Usually, anything at the extremes is a concept gone too far and usually not sustainable anyway. The chance of injury on long-term high volume or max intensity is not worth it.

I concur...we are on the same page. Isn't great what wonderful wisdom age brings? (not that we are old by any stretch of the imagination)

BOLT. · 11-20-2007, 09:06 PM

He's absolutely right. You do too many exercises. Do 3-4 exercises. I do 2, 3 for shoulders.

AverageBob · 11-20-2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FendersRule

But I started thinking more about this, and I came to a conclusion. The conclusion is that for him, with a lot of experience and MASS, it's easy for him to lift ALOT of weight, and be done to 9 sets. He's sort of a power-lifter, but a power-lifter at like, 8 % body fat. So, pretty much a body builder, hehe.

A lot of weight is relative to your muscle size, etc. Therefore, your conclusion is wrong. Building muscle is about spending time under tension with a high enough intensity. This is why 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps is ideal for muscle mass. The "sets" let you perform at intensity (as opposed to one big set) and the volume a) gives you a lot of damage and b) brings you to a state of fatigue (activating the smaller motor neurons), therefore stimulating the most microtrauma. In your workout, by the 8-10th set of your chest workout you are probably operating at an intensity that is too low to cause any kind of additional microtrauma.

If you are coming out of your workout not able to lift a pencil, you are not training correctly (unless it is your first week of resistance training in your life). You will find a million very big guys who will say that never in their lives have they done as much volume as you. Noobs struggle to understand that only an hour a few times a week is the optimal amount of volume. It is intuitive to think that spending all day at the gym is the only way to gain muscle. Once they experience overtraining, they will notice how taxing resistance training is to their body.

If I was you, I would cut down to what that guy said for a few months and see if you notice improvement (I think you will).

Retardo-pex · 11-20-2007, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOLT.

He's absolutely right. You do too many exercises. Do 3-4 exercises. I do 2, 3 for shoulders.

But its not really the exercises that were out of sync so much as the number of sets for each exercise. There's really no reason why you couldn't do 5-7 exercises for a muscle while still keeping the total sets at or around 9-12.

Retardo-pex · 11-20-2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AverageBob

Building muscle is about spending time under tension with a high enough intensity.

That's debateable. Plenty of guys get huge focusing more on amount of tension for lower reps rather then time under tension for mid range reps. I'm personally a big believer in the kitchen sink approach to training, but there are definately periods of time where I get bigger or stronger without very much tut.

AverageBob · 11-20-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retardo-pex

That's debateable. Plenty of guys get huge focusing more on amount of tension for lower reps rather then time under tension for mid range reps.

8-10, 6-8, whatever.

FendersRule · 11-20-2007, 10:23 PM

I don't go over 8 reps anymore. Most of the time, it's 6-7.

Anytime over, is during flies, warmups, or "isolation" exercises (working biceps, triceps) etc. And 10 is usually the max.

Don't you guys think though, that after a couple months, its a good idea to incorporate either less OR more reps to "change" things up to give your body a shock for growth?

I keep thinking back on my IFB Pro BB DVD with chicka. He and "Kenny" Did 4 exercises for the chest, and did 3 x 10 for each one.

So that's 12 sets.

zeropointbug · 11-20-2007, 11:06 PM

Two words.... over training.

More is DEFINITELY NOT better when it comes to building muscle, THROW THAT OUT THE WINDOW.

The best way to gain strength/lean mass is to to keep the rep range in the 5-7 rep range, and only to 5-7 total sets per muscle group, PER WORKOUT DAY!

Just to clear up, muscle is NOT grown in the gym, muscle break down happens in the gym, and muscle growth happens while you are chowing down on your steak and potatoes.

zeropointbug · 11-20-2007, 11:10 PM

And only workout ONCE PER WEEK, per Split! It takes roughly a week for super compensation muscle growth to occur.

Retardo-pex · 11-20-2007, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeropointbug

And only workout ONCE PER WEEK, per Split! It takes roughly a week for super compensation muscle growth to occur.

48 hours =/= 1 week. If that were the case no one would ever grow working a muscle 2 or even 3 times per week, yet plenty of people do. Overtraining is a full system issue, not just one muscle group. If he has been using 25 sets for every muscle, and making or maintaining his gains, he isn't overtraining. People tend to confuse overtraining as why they couldn't add that extra 5 lbs on thier bench this week, when in reality you would have been significantly weaker on every exercise you attempted to do this week. CNS fatigue causes overtraining, and just like the msucles, not everyone is going to have the same response to the same stimuli.

FendersRule · 11-21-2007, 03:25 AM

Species-typical response variations!

Sorry, my behaviorism coming out from Pex's post

Armson Swole · 11-21-2007, 03:57 AM

I have been sticking with about 3 exercises per body part, 5 sets of X reps per exercise. So 15 sets total. I keep the weight up usually and the intensity ALWAYS. I always vary my exercises and I sometimes switch between heavy low rep/light high volume. This has been working well for me. Everyone has their own program, whatever works.

BOLT. · 11-21-2007, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retardo-pex

But its not really the exercises that were out of sync so much as the number of sets for each exercise. There's really no reason why you couldn't do 5-7 exercises for a muscle while still keeping the total sets at or around 9-12.

But that's retarded when you can do 2-4 and actually focus on progression on each exercise. The body can only get good at so many things at once.

TexAss · 11-21-2007, 09:32 AM

This thread is humorous given the comment I negged you for the other day...

Makes me feel even better about it.

TexAss · 11-21-2007, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FendersRule

I don't like the 5 x 5 type bull****. My body never saw a change from it. 5 x 5 is an easy way for your body to habituate to weights.

doing 4 x 8 or 3 x 10 actually requires work. It's hard to mess a set like that up.

davesporty · 11-21-2007, 12:18 PM

just keep your workout to under 60 mins and remember....less is better than more.
Also don't forget with time you will have mass as well it takes patience.
Look at the ABC system by dr squat and follow the A+B routines.
good luck.

zeropointbug · 11-21-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retardo-pex

48 hours =/= 1 week. If that were the case no one would ever grow working a muscle 2 or even 3 times per week, yet plenty of people do. Overtraining is a full system issue, not just one muscle group. If he has been using 25 sets for every muscle, and making or maintaining his gains, he isn't overtraining. People tend to confuse overtraining as why they couldn't add that extra 5 lbs on thier bench this week, when in reality you would have been significantly weaker on every exercise you attempted to do this week. CNS fatigue causes overtraining, and just like the msucles, not everyone is going to have the same response to the same stimuli.

That's the problem, he is only MAINTAINING his gains, which means he is overtraining PAST recovery.

If a given person is doing a proper workout routine, then he or she should be able to add that extra 5lbs, or squeeze out that extra rep the next workout day... if not, you are either overtraining, or you are not eating enough, and not enough whole food.

People on this forum workout WAY to much, and they wonder why they don't gain anymore. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to KEEP gaining all the time and end up like Ronnie Coleman or something (impossible anyways), but everyone is so bent on trying to make gains, so they think they have to workout MORE, and in the end, they end up making it even worse.

And yes, like DaveSporty said, keep your workouts UNDER 1 HOUR! As soon as you near the 1 hour mark, you are seriously under cutting your gains... think 'avoiding Cortisol'

davesporty · 11-21-2007, 03:12 PM

yep,alot of guys/gals end up doing aerobic style workouts.
I follow the high intensity in a short period of time principle,but allowing 3 days recovery for large muscles,and 2 days for small ones.
It's not possible to constantly make gains as the body adapts and then it's over with the progress/gains, so i add in low intensity periodically balanced with 85%+ of one rep max routines.I sadly didn't follow this method from the start.

zeropointbug · 11-21-2007, 06:55 PM

The only principle you need to follow to consistently make gains is "Intensity and Progression".

You MUST keep track of your progress, or else you don't know wtf you are at. Go make a log book, and keep a detailed record of your workouts (weights, reps, did I progress or not?, etc.)... you may think you can remember what you did last time, not if you keep the once per week workout mentality where you WILL forget the details of your last workout.

A typical week should be like this: (with a 3 Split workout)

Day 1: Split 1
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Split 2
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Split 3
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest............Then repeat

Changing around your workout all the time will have your body AND mind confused as to what is going on, thus never making much progress.

John Prophet · 11-21-2007, 07:51 PM

so he told u pretty much the same thing I told u

Retardo-pex · 11-22-2007, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOLT.

But that's retarded when you can do 2-4 and actually focus on progression on each exercise. The body can only get good at so many things at once.

Are you refering to the body as a whole one specific muscle groups? For bodybuilding purposes you really don't need to focus on one exercise and make stead increases, as long as you are increasing as a whole. You've never seen a routine where week 1 the focus might be barbell rows while week 2 is DB rows? Not the same exercise but if in a month from week one, he goes back to barbell rows and adds more weight he has been progressing. I guess its more of a muscle confusion priciple but when all is said and done its still progressive overload, you just won't be a specialist at any one main exercise.