If you can't gain muscle/lose fat same time then what is a recomp?

[gbalzac]

Makes sense that calories in/out is what affects LBM gains and fat loss...but then if that is so how does a recomp work?

[Bronkko]

i was thinking the exact same thing this morning.

if it is impossible to burn fat and gain muscle simultaneously then the recomposition is a myth.

[dabbmw2002]

It's possible, with very careful nutritional timing. But, still it's slow.

[AlexMR]

It is possible and a lot of people are doing it. I have a theory...take it for what it's worth but it's logic...CHeck it here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...3#post95089713

Basically you need to have enough fat in you to be able to supply the energy deficit you are having with your diet PLUS some more to build the new mass. It is unlikely to happen with people carrying less than 20pounds of fat because the amount of energy tat can be used from those stores is very limited, but for people with higher amounts of fat, it's not only possible, it is not really that difficult. Check this article and then check my theory http://www.mindandmuscle.net/article...oss?page=0%2C0

[CYTX]

Originally Posted by AlexMR

Basically you need to have enough fat in you to be able to supply the energy deficit you are having with your diet PLUS some more to build the new mass. It is unlikely to happen with people carrying less than 20pounds of fat because the amount of energy tat can be used from those stores is very limited, but for people with higher amounts of fat, it's not only possible, it is not really that difficult. Check this article and then check my theory http://www.mindandmuscle.net/article...oss?page=0%2C0

This is probably how I have managed to do it. Since the end of July I've gained 23lbs of LBS and lost 13lbs of fat. I stay pretty strict on keto around 2500 calories about 90% of the time.

[Bronkko]

Originally Posted by AlexMR

It is possible and a lot of people are doing it. I have a theory...take it for what it's worth but it's logic...CHeck it here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...3#post95089713

Basically you need to have enough fat in you to be able to supply the energy deficit you are having with your diet PLUS some more to build the new mass. It is unlikely to happen with people carrying less than 20pounds of fat because the amount of energy tat can be used from those stores is very limited, but for people with higher amounts of fat, it's not only possible, it is not really that difficult. Check this article and then check my theory http://www.mindandmuscle.net/article...oss?page=0%2C0

and i wont say your wrong. coming down (april) 200ish with 20%+ bf i believe i gained lean mass (august) 180 14-12% bf. i could tell by measurements. waist area differences were huge while arm circumference barely changed when i went from soft to hard.

i just wish i could eat more (over 3000 cals) and cut fat while gaining mass. unfortunately for me it doesnt work like that.

[mpipes]

The body can not be catabolic and anabolic at the same time but that's not to say the body is either one or the other continuously all the time.

By tweaking nutrition timing and shifting calories towards the times when you're most active during the day, you can have a surplus of calories thus allowing the body to be anabolic at this time. Then during the times you're not very active you keep your calorie intake lower so the body has to utilize stored energy for fuel.

Check out articles by Dr. John Berardi right here at bb.com or over on t-mag - specifically his Nutrition Timing articles and The Importance of Post Workout Nutrition.

[-Aaron-]

Originally Posted by mpipes

The body can not be catabolic and anabolic at the same time but that's not to say the body is either one or the other continuously all the time.

By tweaking nutrition timing and shifting calories towards the times when you're most active during the day, you can have a surplus of calories thus allowing the body to be anabolic at this time. Then during the times you're not very active you keep your calorie intake lower so the body has to utilize stored energy for fuel.

Check out articles by Dr. John Berardi right here at bb.com or over on t-mag - specifically his Nutrition Timing articles and The Importance of Post Workout Nutrition.

Please don't use Beradi as a reference point please. His opinion is usually served for the best interest of Biotest.

Now with that said, your definition is stating it's not possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

[mpipes]

Originally Posted by -Aaron-

Please don't use Beradi as a reference point please. His opinion is usually served for the best interest of Biotest.

And Shugart's t-nation article which mentions Biotest surge, HOT ROX and Low Carb GROW! for people on the Velocity Diet aren't serving anyone else's interests? Not only that, just count the number of other advertisements visible on the Velocity Diet article page. Then consider the fact that when someone tells someone else they're on the Velocity Diet, when that person puts the phrase into Google, they end up at t-nation's site, you just don't get any better advertising value than that. Oh, let's not forget the Velocity Diet BOOK under development - I guess nobody's going to make any money on that either! There's not an article on the internet, in a magazine, or anywhere else about getting in shape that is not an advertisement or endorsement for some product, service, or advertiser. It's all about the money. That doesn't make the core information any less valuable though.

Originally Posted by -Aaron-

Now with that said, your definition is stating it's not possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Re-read what I posted and you might see where it could be possible to repair and build muscle in one part of the day and burn fat at another time of the day. Two different processes happening at different times of the day, ie: not at the same time.

[Hotmoltenlava]

While it is true that you can't build muscle at the same precise time that you lose body fat, you can do both over a matter of days, weeks and months. By cycling calories, you can build on some days or weeks and cut on others. This would be considered a recomp. Some people do it without trying, if they are not keeping track of their intake and some people do it on purpose, by cycling precisely. I did this the first 6-8 months of coming here, mainly because I would go in cycles of being very strict and not so strict. I didn't realize it at the time, so I thought I was achieving the impossible. I later realized the truth. I went from about 185lbs LBM and 295lbs to about 205lbs LBM and 245lb in about a year. My intent over the last year was to cut, but I have also put on muscle, mainly due to my inability to strictly stick to my cutting intake. Some of that might also have been newby gains, but I think my last year has been a recomp. I still have about 20lbs of fat to lose.

Have a good one.

[bigpopa71]

I think it has more to do with your ratio muscle to fat. Its different depending on your body size. I was morbid when I started a life of fitness. 434 pounds at 6'5" and a large frame is a little over 200 pounds overweight. I went on an 1800 cal diet for three months with no training and lost about 65 pounds. Then I started working out cardio/ weight training and ate the same amount of cals. I added in three 50 gram protien shakes to get it up to 2500 cals. During this period of time I lost another 100 pounds and continued to build muscle rather easily. Every muscle group continued to grow in size and I got very strong. 185 pound bench press to 325 bench press. easy curls with 25 plates went to 45 plates. people actually started admiring my muscular build. One thing I did notice was the lower my body fat the harder it was to keep growing. I still have a good amount of fat on my stomach and a little on my legs. I am 18 percent body fat which means I have around 43 pounds of fat and 196 lean body mass. When I was 434 I was 58 percent body fat which means I was 184 pounds lean body mass. I have lost 189 pounds of fat and gained 12 pounds of muscle. Im sure that during the past 30 months I have lost and gained back muscle thats why it is so important to weight train while you lose weight. So from my own experience it is possble but I think it depends on how much body fat you have. Here I am now at 239 pounds and the time has come where my cals have gone up to 2750 food 750 protien shakes. The lower my body fat gets I have to eat more to keep my muscle and still lose weight. I work out 7 days a week and on my days off from work I go back to the gym at night for some extra cardio. You can gain muscle and lose fat it you have a huge amount of fat on your body but as you lose large amounts of fat the task becomes harder to do both. After a certain point you have to cycle between cutting and bulking. My day has come for cycling the easy days of light eating and seeing great progress are gone. thats my theory from my own personal experience Im no scientist just a guy that wants to look good.

[bigpopa71]

Mpipes
Re-read what I posted and you might see where it could be possible to repair and build muscle in one part of the day and burn fat at another time of the day. Two different processes happening at different times of the day, ie: not at the same time.[/QUOTE]

I would consider that that as losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time. How far do we need to break this thing down. When 99.9 percent of people talk about losing fat and gaining musle they are speaking in terms of over the course of a diet and or cutting period, not a single day. people are speaking of goals not every single process our body goes through in the course of one day. Im not trying to be smart but taking it down to a daily process is a bit much.

[mpipes]

Originally Posted by bigpopa71

I would consider that that as losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time. How far do we need to break this thing down. When 99.9 percent of people talk about losing fat and gaining musle they are speaking in terms of over the course of a diet and or cutting period, not a single day. people are speaking of goals not every single process our body goes through in the course of one day. Im not trying to be smart but taking it down to a daily process is a bit much.

No, you're right, it is over the long term when you see the biggest differences but big differences over time are also the cummulative affects of *consistent* short term results. Obsessing over it from day to day isn't healthy but nutrition timing is a pretty easy and automatic concept to put into action and it has so much affect on the outcome. Most people here probably already do it without realizing it, eating more at times they're active and eating less when they're not, eating carbs earlier in the day and cutting them out of the last 3 meals of the day. Protein/Carb shakes for Pre, During or Post workout nutrition. Not too tough to do day in and day out.

I've never bulked with excess calories yet today I'm 20lbs heavier than my lightest weight from 3 years ago and the leanest I have ever been. My weight fluctuates like crazy with water though.

[gfundaro]

Of course it's possible...if it wasn't, I'd be fatter now than when I started.
But yes, it is slow. I mean, slllllooooowwwwww. And it doesn't last forever, and doesn't happen for everyone. From my experience, it takes a lot of working out, lots of heavy lifting, and always making sure you're eating enough. Also, cycling calories may help by placing you in a caloric excess or maintenance every once in a while.

[Zachary53088]

You can lose fat gain muscle at the same time. You do not haft to eat an excess number of calories to gain muscle either. I don't eat like a body builder or eat extra calories to put towards msucle my body just builds it and loses fat. When im loseing weight I can feel and relize my muscle geting stronger and bigger and more defined.

[Bronkko]

so "in theory" lifting hard, cardio and eating at maintenence will give you periods of muscle growth and fat burning as long as your getting good post workout nutrition.

[AlexMR]

I would love to read some of those studies that say it is impossible for the body to use fat stores and build muscle at the same time.

Anyone?

[thomasfrotten]

i think you need to be sick and insane

but if you do noithinng other than live your body

you rip at cardio

then see how far that goes

then eat nothing


then when you are a skeleton

you eat more

and keep eating

but work out like three hours a day

then eat

and watch

the whole deal is to know your body and go f-in crazy

if you cant do really sick dsicipline then yess drugs are for you

[anonymous123]

Originally Posted by Bronkko

so "in theory" lifting hard, cardio and eating at maintenence will give you periods of muscle growth and fat burning as long as your getting good post workout nutrition.

I've been thinking this for a while too. As long as you're tearing at your muscle fibers through heavy resistance training, then eating a lot of protein to repair them, couldn't you theoretically be adding mass that way? Why exactly is it essential to be eating at a calorie surplus to gain muscle?

I've asked this question many times but I have never gotten an actual answer.

[Bronkko]

Originally Posted by anonymous123

Why exactly is it essential to be eating at a calorie surplus to gain muscle?

I've asked this question many times but I have never gotten an actual answer.

my guess would be to maximize your potential for muscle growth. if your busting your ass in the gym make the most of it.

i know in my next bulk im going at it (i hope) with fewer cals. try to stay in the area of 200 over maintenence. @2600-2700 cals 50/35/15 c/p/f

[-Aaron-]

Originally Posted by Bronkko

my guess would be to maximize your potential for muscle growth. if your busting your ass in the gym make the most of it.

i know in my next bulk im going at it (i hope) with fewer cals. try to stay in the area of 200 over maintenence. @2600-2700 cals 50/35/15 c/p/f

I'm trying to understand why you are off creatine...

Sorry to hijack.

[Bronkko]

Originally Posted by -Aaron-

I'm trying to understand why you are off creatine...

Sorry to hijack.

i plan to go back on during this cut. but i like the look of my body in the gym when off creatine. my veins come out more and i like that. im not losing strength (not gaining any either)

[anonymous123]

Originally Posted by Bronkko

my guess would be to maximize your potential for muscle growth. if your busting your ass in the gym make the most of it.

i know in my next bulk im going at it (i hope) with fewer cals. try to stay in the area of 200 over maintenence. @2600-2700 cals 50/35/15 c/p/f

I'm gonna do the same thing for my bulk when I start. I never plan to go 300 over maintenance at all. That's the absolute maximum I'm gonna aim for.

[Bronkko]

Originally Posted by anonymous123

I'm gonna do the same thing for my bulk when I start. I never plan to go 300 over maintenance at all. That's the absolute maximum I'm gonna aim for.

easier said then done though. once i started bulking it became way to easy to overconsume. i prolly averaged slightly less than 3500 cals a day over the two month bulk.

[hdh]

I've done it, it's not impossible at all. Hard yes, and you won't grow as fast as on a bulk and its easy to have a week where you are in stasis. Not impossible. In college its near impossible though IMHO.

Anyway, I'm already down to 204 from 220 during a bulk, cutting is so easy once you have the will to control your diet (+coffee, +tea, +artificial sweeteners) I should be a sponsor for sweet 'n low.

[-Aaron-]

Originally Posted by hdh

I've done it, it's not impossible at all. Hard yes, and you won't grow as fast as on a bulk and its easy to have a week where you are in stasis. Not impossible. In college its near impossible though IMHO.

Anyway, I'm already down to 204 from 220 during a bulk, cutting is so easy once you have the will to control your diet (+coffee, +tea, +artificial sweeteners) I should be a sponsor for sweet 'n low.

Are you comparing recomposition to bulking?

If you are, your muscle gains comparing the two with time would be four weeks of recomp to one week of bulking.

[Tommy W.]

It is very easy to lose fat and gain muscle at the "same time".

In this case "same time" meaning in the period of a month.

I've done it several times by lo cal for 2 weeks then higher cal for 2 weeks.

You have to keep your protien intake up in the low cal periods!!

You HAVE to be training hard or you're wasting your time.

This is a much slower process than long cut and bulk periods but you dont have to go through the "fat" stage

[bmar22]

hey i havent read all of the posts yet so sorry if this has already been said but if you eat NO fat whatsoever in your diet but you EAT alot of good quality food you can gain muscle and lose fat very easily but it might cost more to get the better foods. Even if your bulking you can do this but like it was said earlier it just takes time.

[Tommy W.]

Originally Posted by bmar22

hey i havent read all of the posts yet so sorry if this has already been said but if you eat NO fat whatsoever in your diet but you EAT alot of good quality food you can gain muscle and lose fat very easily but it might cost more to get the better foods. Even if your bulking you can do this but like it was said earlier it just takes time.

you need fat

[-Aaron-]

Originally Posted by Tommy W.

you need fat

You are way to vague...

You need healthy fats such as Essential Fatty Acids (Fish Oil or Flax Seed), saturated fat (regulates testosterone), and you need to avoid trans fat.