Thick Waistline

[pantera63]

I have been doing alot of ab work lately and my waist is nearly as small as it was when i was 20 yrs old.

[heathalvarez]

Originally Posted by Hibiscus09

Do you ever do stomach vacuums? Those may help somewhat.

Agree with the vacuums. Also, stay away from power movements like squats and deadlifts if you want to thin your midsection down. These movements work your core and with the amount of weight strong people use, it is only natural for your body to respond with increaase muscle mass in all areas that are being stressed.

[ericg]

Originally Posted by heathalvarez

Agree with the vacuums. Also, stay away from power movements like squats and deadlifts if you want to thin your midsection down. These movements work your core and with the amount of weight strong people use, it is only natural for your body to respond with increaase muscle mass in all areas that are being stressed.

THIS is what I meant and what I read in M&F. I guess it all depends on genetics?? Personally I have a tendency to develop a blocky waistline, but then again lately I really need to get my weight down and BF%.

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

Mm... OK, I'll go with that.

I was told by a men's wardrobe consultant (OK, a salesman) that I shouldn't try to get my waist/midsection lower than 36-38 because I would have to give up too much elsewhere. I was also told by an amateur competitive bber that for the average non-competing guy a 10" drop from chest to waist is pretty good. So, there's my 38 again.

And there you have it...as long as you are happy, then that's all that matters

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by heathalvarez

Agree with the vacuums. Also, stay away from power movements like squats and deadlifts if you want to thin your midsection down. These movements work your core and with the amount of weight strong people use, it is only natural for your body to respond with increaase muscle mass in all areas that are being stressed.

Again, very horrible advice. This has nothing to do with the waistline. How is it that all natural bodybuilders with 28-29" wasitlines lift heavy squats and deadlifts all year round then? It helps makes the abs look MUCH better when you diet down with all the extra detail going on. What you are probably thinking of is the extended gut that you see the pros with. That's not because of heavy squats or deadlifts...that's because of drugs, so don't confuse the two.

Again, your waistline is genetic. Period. Heavy ab and core work will make your abs look deeper and more defined once you diet down to see them as opposed to just a soft flat midsection. It all depends on goals. That's why most of the people on this board spend loads of time dieting only to find they still don't have that desired sharp, six-pack look they were going for. They think they need to diet longer, when more times than not it's because they don't have enough muscle there to begin with.

Sporto

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by ericg

THIS is what I meant and what I read in M&F. I guess it all depends on genetics?? Personally I have a tendency to develop a blocky waistline, but then again lately I really need to get my weight down and BF%.

Correct. Genetics will determine how thick it is, and once you get your BF down, you will see the limitations of your genetics (good or bad). I have a blocky waistline in the offseason (36" or so), but come contest time I have a 28" waist. And guess what? I'm doing heavy ab work ALL YEAR ROUND, as well as heavy squats and deadlifts...so that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Sporto

[valenti100]

Just a quick question as a comparison to myself...

How high does your body fat get to in the offseason compared to competition time, to make the 8 inch difference?

[Hibiscus09]

Originally Posted by valenti100

Just a quick question as a comparison to myself...

How high does your body fat get to in the offseason compared to competition time, to make the 8 inch difference?

I know you're not asking me, but that is an interesting question. I suppose there is a bigger difference on someone who gains more weight in their midsection as opposed to someone who doesn't. When I was contest ready, my waist was approximately 23" and when I'm flubbier (around 20%) for me, my waist is 26" -- right now I'm at 17% and 25". I always feel like I gain more fat on my behind than waistline, but the difference is about the same there -- at contest 33" hips and in flubby state -- 36".

Just rambling........

[ericg]

Question for you guys and gals:

At my absolute worst, I was 330lbs at 5'8". I was a powerhouse but didn't look it, I looked muscular with fat covering it (as told by my wife and family)

I was taking creatine at the time, shot me up from 295 to 330. I got off the creatine, dieted for 5 months and lost (and kept off) 35 lbs.

Bev Francis took my bf% via caliper test, said BF was 19% when I was 330, 17% when I was 295.

I asked her why only a 2% difference, she mentioned the original reading was off because the fat was harder, as you lose weight it softens and you can get a more accurate reading (I am not quoting her, just what I sort of remember her saying).

So a 2% drop in BF after losing 35 lbs?? So I am now 295 at 17% BF per her readings....

Do you guys think it is ANYWAY possible for a natural person (non-steroid) to be 245 lbs at 5% BF?

[Ryan Zielonka]

As a side note, Dave Tate "calipered" at 12% prior to his huge shreddification, when he in reality was closer to 20% bf. You may be one of the lucky/unlucky ones who stores fat viscerally rather than in subcutaneous tissue.

[valenti100]

I believe that's true... when I was 230lbs at 30% bodyfat, I was big but firm really... I wasn't jiggly and I couldn't pinch the fat as I could as it started going away. I think at about 13-15% is where it got really ...soft. That was pretty bad and took a while before I could get used to it... actually I didn't, luckily I dropped more % and it got tolerable. So, I do believe that it's got to be something like that.

245 at 5% for a natural BBer... I'm shooting for a similar goal myself. My next 3month goal is to reach 220lbs at around 5-7% and we'll see how it goes from there. I don't know how long it would take me to put on that much more lean mass, but quite a bit longer I think. Being that you're working your way down... best of success with it though, I definitely won't say it's not possible Look forward to seeing your progress even.

Mark

[ericg]

Originally Posted by valenti100

I believe that's true... when I was 230lbs at 30% bodyfat, I was big but firm really... I wasn't jiggly and I couldn't pinch the fat as I could as it started going away. I think at about 13-15% is where it got really ...soft. That was pretty bad and took a while before I could get used to it... actually I didn't, luckily I dropped more % and it got tolerable. So, I do believe that it's got to be something like that.

245 at 5% for a natural BBer... I'm shooting for a similar goal myself. My next 3month goal is to reach 220lbs at around 5-7% and we'll see how it goes from there. I don't know how long it would take me to put on that much more lean mass, but quite a bit longer I think. Being that you're working your way down... best of success with it though, I definitely won't say it's not possible Look forward to seeing your progress even.

Mark

Thanks Mark, I appreciate your support!

Hmmm, learning now of visceral fat, could be Bev could only get a reading of what she was able to pinch (hard). I'm at this current weight but you can pinch only so much, the rest is very solid. However, you look at my waist (front, back or side) and it is big, so visceral fat seems to be the answer.

CARDIO.....CARDIO....CARDIO (as quoted to me by Steve Weinberger (Bev Francis' husband and head IFBB judge))

Bottom line is, right now I don't care about competing, right now I just want to get rid of this bodyfat, get healthy again for my wife and kids and set a good example for them.

One day I want to be on that stage again. Man do I miss it.

[valenti100]

I did a daily morning cardio session before meal 1, with a lot of success. 3x a week HIIT sessions as well and 3x week I would hit the weights too. I was probably only eating about 1500-1900 calories a day for 3 months... I don't know if this is advisable though, but maybe I was just lacking rest. It seemed like I was often borderline overtrained though.

I did drop from 30-9% body fat in that time though and retained or actually built up a lot of lean mass

thought I would throw that it being that you're still cutting down like that.

[IdahoViking]

Well, I tried to vacuum my stomach. I don't look that much different.


Although, I finally did get that pesky lint out of my belly-button.

[misstransformer]

Originally Posted by pantera63

I have been doing alot of ab work lately and my waist is nearly as small as it was when i was 20 yrs old.

Excellent Progress!! My waist was 24 inches for one "brief" period in my 20's, so I hope to say the same one day. Keep up the great work. T

[valenti100]

Haha, IV :P that's worth something too

[StartinOver-68]

I agree about the genetic comment. I have a short torso and my adult waistline has never been below 32". Currently it's at 39" but it took a lot of neglectful years and old age to get there.

Another comment about genetics. I have a 17" arm and do not curl more than 85lbs x8, do not do bench presses, heavy tricep work, or presses. My arms respond with light weights. Genetics play a big part.

[valenti100]

...you're looking awesome too! I would have guessed you to be about 15 years younger than your avatar-box shows ::thumbs up::

[ericg]

I was just about to say, wow you look great!!! Kudos to you buddy, good job!!


11/20 I am getting a bodyfat test done again. It's on a scale of some sort, don't recall the name of the test but it's supposed to be more accurate than a skinfold test. I want to know what my water, muscle and bodyfat weight is, so at least I have an idea of where I am. By the way, this is what I currently look like, minus the goatee (see attachment)

[Ryan Zielonka]

Hard to say without seeing your shirt off. My bro holds a lot of his fat in his face/extremities but maintains a pretty lean midsection. FWIW, until you actually start cutting and the fat gets soft and mushy, it's easy to delude yourself into think that you're a lot leaner than you are. Some guys can look roughly the same at 18% bodyfat as they do at 12%, and it takes pushing into the single digits to see appreciable change in physique. Honestly, your waistline and the mirror is what I'd go by.

[valenti100]

I thought I'd update here, after a week of including Stomach Vacuums into my ab routine, my waist has gone down .5" not HUGE, but for one week and considering that I had a thicker waist with about 2% less bodyfat than I'm currently holding, that's pretty nice! Thanks for the tips!

[Tifflex]

Originally Posted by valenti100

I thought I'd update here, after a week of including Stomach Vacuums into my ab routine, my waist has gone down .5" not HUGE, but for one week and considering that I had a thicker waist with about 2% less bodyfat than I'm currently holding, that's pretty nice! Thanks for the tips!

Congrats Valenti! .5" in a week is great progress!

[valenti100]

Thanks thinton!

My second week using this exercise and I've lost another half inch!

One thing though.... I get these wierd 'pains' around my asophagus since I've been doing these. I do know that it's herniated but it's never really caused me any trouble, besides looking funny when to ab work on the floor. Could it be that these exercises are just forcing it 'back into place'? It does seem much flatter than it was before.

Just to note that this inch from my waist in 2 weeks comes without a real weight or body fat difference! It's really just ....shrunk in size?!

[NotTooLate]

Originally Posted by valenti100

Thanks thinton!

My second week using this exercise and I've lost another half inch!

One thing though.... I get these wierd 'pains' around my asophagus since I've been doing these. I do know that it's herniated but it's never really caused me any trouble, besides looking funny when to ab work on the floor. Could it be that these exercises are just forcing it 'back into place'? It does seem much flatter than it was before.

Just to note that this inch from my waist in 2 weeks comes without a real weight or body fat difference! It's really just ....shrunk in size?!

That is significant. You've sold me, I'm incorporating these into my routine! Thanks

[DRP7]

Originally Posted by Sporto1633

... Your waistline is genetic...sorry but you can't change how wide your hips are without surgery.
Sporto

genetics is a major factor here, very right.

the waistline is fairly above the hips, so it is not so much determined by the skeletal system (pelvis) but more by the size of abdominal organs (mainly by the size of the gut) and by visceral + subcutaneous abdominal fat.

there is not much one can do to shrink the gut. but there is quite a lot one can do to decrease visceral and subcutaneous fat.

interestingly, even people with very low subcutaneous fat can have considerable amounts of "hidden" visceral abdominal fat. these hidden visceral fat depostis have recently been associated with an indreased risk to develop insulin resistancy.
however, one would first have to know whether he indeed has visceral fat or not. an abdominal MRI scan could show it. (but would cost too much).
if you are sure that you have visceral fat than cortisol antagonizing substances may be of great help to get rid of this particular fat.

[jtroster]

Originally Posted by Dr.P

If you are sure that you have visceral fat than cortisol antagonizing substances may be of great help to get rid of this particular fat.

Dr. P,

Are there any good cortisol antagonizing substances available legally? I have been following the 11-oxo thread in the Supplements area.

[valenti100]

Hmm... that is interesting! Thanks Dr. P!

I was very much overweight 6 months ago, with 30.2% body fat and within 3 months I managed to get down to 9.4% - I'm in as last weeks transformation of the week if anyone cares to see how, but anyways... does that sound possible that I still had quite a bit of fat around my organs?

Would that possibly be a reason for the pains I'm experiencing?

[Whiskeyjack]

Originally Posted by pantera63

I have been doing alot of ab work lately and my waist is nearly as small as it was when i was 20 yrs old.

Yes, your waist is pretty good for a 44 y/o. I envy you.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by jtroster

Dr. P,

Are there any good cortisol antagonizing substances available legally? I have been following the 11-oxo thread in the Supplements area.

I'd be interested in that also.

My fat is primarily visceral, from insulin resistance. I know this because I can see and feel the ridges of my abdominal muscles. But I have that "turtle shell".

Byetta, metformin, a keto diet and cardio in the form of mountain biking (off-road and on-road) have helped get my midsection down. But it's not coming off fast enough to suit me. I'm kind of tired of the "power bear" build. I'm still hoping for that 36-38" waist.

[DRP7]

Originally Posted by jtroster

Dr. P,

Are there any good cortisol antagonizing substances available legally? I have been following the 11-oxo thread in the Supplements area.

11-oxo is indeed a very interesting novel compound that may selectively block the conversion of inactive (precursor) cortisone into active cortisol in fat cells. high cortisol activity has been associated with visceral fat accumualtion. typically, patients suffering from abnormally high cortisol levels (M. Cushing) display the typical picture of "central adiposity". that means that such patients accumulate large amounts of fat in visceral adipose tissue at their trunk (and neck/face) but not at their limbs.

I don't know how well 11-oxo works or not. you may want to look in the supplement section where people use to post their reviews and logs. many logs and reviews need to be taken with a large grain of salt, however, because of bias introduced by sponsoring or affiliation.

a somewhat older product that is supposed to do the same as 11-oxo is
7-oxo-DHEA or 7-OH-DHEA Both are derived from DHEA but do not convert to any estrogenic or androgenic metabolites. thus they do not exert any relevant hormonal activity. They have been sold for many years and have gained some popularity among people who are working on body recomposition and want to lose fat.

here is a text that shows the mechanism of how these DHEA-metabolites inhibit conversion of cortison to cortisol.

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2007 Jun-Jul;105(1-5):159-65. Epub 2007 May 17. Links
7alpha- and 7beta-hydroxy-epiandrosterone as substrates and inhibitors for the human 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1.

Hennebert O, Pernelle C, Ferroud C, Morfin R.
Chaire de G?nie Biologique, EA-3199, Conservatoire National des Arts et M?tiers, 2 rue Cont?, 75003 Paris, France.

The human 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 (11beta-HSD1) catalyzes both the NADP(H)-dependent oxido-reduction of cortisol and cortisone and the inter-conversion of 7alpha- and 7beta-hydroxy-dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) through a 7-oxo-DHEA intermediate. As shown with human liver and intestine fractions, 7alpha-hydroxy-epiandrosterone (7alpha-hydroxy-EpiA) and 7beta-hydroxy-EpiA were readily inter-converted with no evidence for a 7-oxo-EpiA intermediate. Whether this inter-conversion resulted from action of the 11beta-HSD1 or from an unknown epimerase is unresolved. Furthermore, whether these steroids could inhibit the cortisol-cortisone oxido-reduction remains a question. The recombinant human 11beta-HSD1 was used to test these questions. NADP(+) supplementation only provided the production of 7beta-hydroxy-EpiA out of 7alpha-hydroxy-EpiA with a V(max)/K(M) ratio at 0.1. With NADPH supplementation, both 7alpha-hydroxy-EpiA and 7beta-hydroxy-EpiA were formed in low amounts from 7beta-hydroxy-EpiA and 7alpha-hydroxy-EpiA, respectively. These inter-conversions occurred without a trace of the putative 7-oxo-EpiA intermediate. In contrast, the 7-oxo-EpiA substrate was efficiently reduced into 7alpha-hydroxy-EpiA and 7beta-hydroxy-EpiA, with V(max)/K(M) ratios of 23.6 and 5.8, respectively. Competitive and mixed type inhibitions of the 11beta-HSD1-mediated cortisol oxidation were exerted by 7alpha-hydroxy-EpiA and 7beta-hydroxy-EpiA, respectively. The 11beta-HSD1-mediated cortisone reduction was inhibited in a competitive manner by 7-oxo-EpiA. These findings suggest that the active site of the human 11beta-HSD1 may carry out directly the epimeric transformation of 7-hydroxylated EpiA substrates. The low amounts of these steroids in human do not support a physiological importance for modulation of the glucocorticoid status in tissues.

PMID: 17624766 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Originally Posted by valenti100

Hmm... that is interesting! Thanks Dr. P!

I was very much overweight 6 months ago, with 30.2% body fat and within 3 months I managed to get down to 9.4% - I'm in as last weeks transformation of the week if anyone cares to see how, but anyways... does that sound possible that I still had quite a bit of fat around my organs?

Would that possibly be a reason for the pains I'm experiencing?

I suppose that you got your bodyfat measured by calipers? calipers can only measure subcutanous fat and then these values are being extrapolated to whole-body fat mass, which often may be inaccurate. so, if you currently have 9.4% per caliper measurement, then this will not necessarily reflect your visceral adipose tissue accurately. on paper, you may be super-lean, but in reality you may have the feeling of having a a bloated/fat abdominal region.

Pain is always an alarm signal in the body. If something aches then the body tells me: "careful buddy, something could break if you go on". don't play with a herniated oesophagus. such herniations can get worse if you aren't careful with them. therefore, in your place, i would reduce the intensity or amounts of the ab-exercises that cause your pains.

Originally Posted by Minotaur

I'd be interested in that also.

My fat is primarily visceral, from insulin resistance. I know this because I can see and feel the ridges of my abdominal muscles. But I have that "turtle shell".

Byetta, metformin, a keto diet and cardio in the form of mountain biking (off-road and on-road) have helped get my midsection down. But it's not coming off fast enough to suit me. I'm kind of tired of the "power bear" build. I'm still hoping for that 36-38" waist.

as already said, 11-oxo (a steroid found in fish, but the stuff that is being sold is synthetic) may effectively reduce active cortisol in visceral adipose tissue. but be careful: at higher doses it may have androgenic effects, so people with prostate issue, androgenic alopecia and other problems related to androgen levels should take this stuff only at low doses.

7-OH or 7-oxo DHEA has been around quite some time and has virtually zero side effects.

other cortisol-inhibiting substances are glycyrrhetic acid (from licorice), or the syntheitc form, carbenoxolone. unfortunately, it can increase mineralokorticoid levels in the body and cause water retention and blood pressure elevations. moreover, it will reduce natural testosterone levels.

phosphatidylserine has also been purpoted for its cortisol-lowering effects, but to my knowledge it decreases only overshooting cortisol levels due to stress but not at resting state. moreover, it's obscene expensive.


one important thing that you can do by yourself is to reduce stress as much as possible and -if it applies - to reduce the intake of sympathomimetics. stress and sympathomiimetics result in higher cortisol levels, so they can indirectly contribute to visceral fat accumulation.

BTW, Minotaur, you have made a very important point by mentioning insulin resistance. interestingly, visceral adipose tissue may produce certain metabolic / hormonal factors that cause insulin resistance in the whole body. thus, visceral abdominal fat is the fat in the body that we would want to get rid of more than everything else.