Cutting vs. Bulking: help needed

[SharperImage]

I am looking for clarification/advice if anyone can offer some.

Heres my background.... I hate being called skinny (was 170 lbs at 6'4) so at the beginning of the summer I dedicated myself to going to the gym 4 times per week. I have a fast metabolism so eating big was key. I have put on 30 pounds since I started about 5 months ago and feel a lot better about myself but am nowhere near satisfied. I still feel a bit skinny, not big enough in the chest and back. I felt i wasn't getting enough out of my routine anymore so a week ago i switched to the bill star 5x5 and workout 3 times/week. I play a lot of sports for cardio. Before i was doing mostly isolation exercises, but with the 5x5 they are all compound which I am enjoying and hope will make me a lot thicker.

I am bigger but am not ripped which is what i would like, so should i be cutting? BTW I don't really understand what cutting means. From what i understand it seems to mean loosing weight and reducing calories, but i am afraid that if i do that i will loose the size and muscle ive worked hard for. Also, is cutting a good idea while on a 5x5 if 5x5 is mainly a mass building program?

In addition, I am not sure if I have a warped self-image but I don't feel very big most of the time. I would like to stand out as a strong guy, so should i try to bulk even more to 220 lbs or something, or is this unrealistic considering my genetics and metabolism? I see pics of really ripped guys on this forum at 170-190 lbs and they look huge, so maybe I don't need to add more weight but to do something else. And i can't eat like a beast forever, i would get tired of ****ting so often, so when i return to a more normal diet will i drop all the muscle ive gained???? (i'm worried about this now too, now that im no longer taking weight gain shakes) I don't take any supplements except whey protein in my shakes, and i still shoot for over 3000 calories/day.

Im confused right now as you can probably tell. My goal is to be strong and ripped, to fill out my t-shirts, never to be associated with skinny again, and to generally feel better about myself. Advice regarding my situation would be greatly appreciated!

[canyonracerx]

Originally Posted by SharperImage

Cutting vs. Bulking: help needed

Originally Posted by SharperImage

My goal is to be strong and ripped, to fill out my t-shirts, never to be associated with skinny again, and to generally feel better about myself. Advice regarding my situation would be greatly appreciated!

You answered your own question. Continue gaining weight, continue getting stronger, and don't worry about teh six pack for a while.

[liftinguru]

Any fat man can fill out his t-shirts. Do you want to fill them out or do you want to fill them out in the right places? First, buy a size smaller. Next, eat right and don't get fat. "Bulking", when used by anyone that isn't on steroids, is a silly term, and what it really boils down to is you eat so much damn food that your body will never be deficient in any area, and the drawback is you cannot process such a large amount of calories for muscle building purposes (it just doesn't work that fast), so Americans get fatter and fatter, and "don't worry about the 6 pack". I suppose if it would make you feel better about you to have a big fat stomach and fat layers covering your muscle (yeah, your measurements will increase), go for it! But if you ask me, I'd eat at your maintenance level or just 100-200 calories more per day and work out strictly to build some quality muscle and get bigger and leaner at the same time. There's simply no reason for natural bodybuilders or weekend Joe's to be "cycling" like they're on roids. The words people are using on these forums are shocking to say the least, if not downright embarassing.

[canyonracerx]

Originally Posted by liftinguru

Any fat man can fill out his t-shirts. Do you want to fill them out or do you want to fill them out in the right places? First, buy a size smaller. Next, eat right and don't get fat. "Bulking", when used by anyone that isn't on steroids, is a silly term, and what it really boils down to is you eat so much damn food that your body will never be deficient in any area, and the drawback is you cannot process such a large amount of calories for muscle building purposes (it just doesn't work that fast), so Americans get fatter and fatter, and "don't worry about the 6 pack". I suppose if it would make you feel better about you to have a big fat stomach and fat layers covering your muscle (yeah, your measurements will increase), go for it! But if you ask me, I'd eat at your maintenance level or just 100-200 calories more per day and work out strictly to build some quality muscle and get bigger and leaner at the same time. There's simply no reason for natural bodybuilders or weekend Joe's to be "cycling" like they're on roids. The words people are using on these forums are shocking to say the least, if not downright embarassing.

I don't know if there is a language barrier or something going on here but alot of your post made little sense. Bulking is not a silly term, it means eating in a calorie surplus plain and simple, just like cutting means eating in a calorie defecit. It doesn't specify how much, it could be 1000+ or 10+, it's not a specific term like you think it is. Trying to eat at only 100-200 calories over maint. is how 99% of the newbs on this board stay skinny year after year and why they are all "hardgainers". Trying to walk the fine line between eating just enough to gain muscle but not to much to gain any fat is damn near impossible for just about any average gym goer but you don't have to listen to me, go give it a shot. I'll put money down that the "majority" who try to follow that rule will still look the same in 2 years.

[liftinguru]

If the only acceptable "change" to you is that one look like they've gained weight (even if it's all fat), then I guess he and everyone else that follows a sensible approach to diet and exercise will "look the same" in 2 years. I don't know where all these hardgainers come from, because America has a serious obesity problem, moreso than any other country--right at 60% of the population and growing. Hardgainers? The grass is always greener...

Now, to add more to what I said earlier--as one gains muscle their metabolism increases and thus their daily caloric requirements also increase. If this guy eats 200 calories above his maintenance level each day, he WILL gain weight. As he gains muscle, his daily caloric requirements will increase, and he increases his food consumption along with it. Again, the only scientific possibility here is that he will GAIN WEIGHT. And if he works out appropriately, most if not all of that weight will be muscle (not fat), and he doesn't have to forget about that 6 pack, and neither do you or anyone else for that matter. A 200 calorie surplus equates to 1 pound every 16 or so days. That's 30 pounds a year. In years, that's 60 pounds. That's A LOT. If 60 pounds of quality muscle gain in 2 years is "looking the same" to you, then he and everyone is will surely fail with your standards.

Of course, he could just forget about common sense and buy into the very dangerous (and most expensive) pipedream of "bulk bulk bulk!", eat like a monster, waste thousands on suppliments that won't work, toy around with some weights twice a week, and become just another obese American with the faintest hint of a tricep cut through his fat, flabby arms. And that makes him a bodybuilder. I dunno.

Hopefully, he'll choose, and he'll choose correctly.

[canyonracerx]

My assumptions are I'm talking to bodybuilders ears since this is a bodybuilding website so stop comparing bodybuilders to obese Americans. I was talking about the majority of bodybuilders not Americans. Don't overthink things so much.

Listen, I'm not saying you are wrong. Scientifically, on paper, you are completely correct that 200+ will build muscle without fat buuuuuut what I am saying is that the average Joe on here isn't going to be able to nail that EXACT 200+ mark so by just making sure they are gaining weight each week and not freaking out if they gain a little fat works better in the real world. Besides, once you have that increased muscle mass burning fat off is easy.

[SharperImage]

Yea, obeseity is definately not an issue for me nor will it ever be... and i assume most people on a bodybuilding forum are the same

[ecto_ryan]

I can see both points of view, what you should take from it is that you have to get the right balance. Dont aim for 20lbs in two weeks because most of it will be fat. But at the same time go for more calories rather than less.
I put almost a stone on, using the Bill Star's 5*5 when I was at Uni.

One thing I will say is be careful with this program. It can lead to overuse injuries. The work is all front delt and not rear delt and it can lead to an imbalance causing shoulder problems. Also so many squats can hurt the hips a bit. Its a great wo so I wouldnt say avoid it but make sure you include some rotator cuff and rear delt exercises. Also hip add(abd)uctors. And I wouldnt do it for more than six months

[james0566]

Originally Posted by canyonracerx

I don't know if there is a language barrier or something going on here but alot of your post made little sense. Bulking is not a silly term, it means eating in a calorie surplus plain and simple, just like cutting means eating in a calorie defecit. It doesn't specify how much, it could be 1000+ or 10+, it's not a specific term like you think it is. Trying to eat at only 100-200 calories over maint. is how 99% of the newbs on this board stay skinny year after year and why they are all "hardgainers". Trying to walk the fine line between eating just enough to gain muscle but not to much to gain any fat is damn near impossible for just about any average gym goer but you don't have to listen to me, go give it a shot. I'll put money down that the "majority" who try to follow that rule will still look the same in 2 years.

x2

[SharperImage]

Originally Posted by ecto_ryan

I can see both points of view, what you should take from it is that you have to get the right balance. Dont aim for 20lbs in two weeks because most of it will be fat. But at the same time go for more calories rather than less.
I put almost a stone on, using the Bill Star's 5*5 when I was at Uni.

One thing I will say is be careful with this program. It can lead to overuse injuries. The work is all front delt and not rear delt and it can lead to an imbalance causing shoulder problems. Also so many squats can hurt the hips a bit. Its a great wo so I wouldnt say avoid it but make sure you include some rotator cuff and rear delt exercises. Also hip add(abd)uctors. And I wouldnt do it for more than six months

Thanks for the advice! I think its an 8 week cycle so if i see enough progress after the first go around Ill do it over again. Also. what exercise is good for rear delts?

[Smatths]

Rear lateral Raises?

Seriously though for exercises. bookmark this page:

http://www.exrx.net

The link you need atm is this:

http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/Sho...#anchor1934542

[warriorchazz]

I totally agree with with you on this subject. On paper its great, but realisticly hitting that 200+ mark is pretty hard without logging everything and really being critical about it. More muscle burns more calories when being used actively anyway. Keep eating resoneably and going for mass gains and eventually leaning up will come or at least start to show after a while. Then balance of mass to body fat percentage will start to start paying off.

Originally Posted by canyonracerx

My assumptions are I'm talking to bodybuilders ears since this is a bodybuilding website so stop comparing bodybuilders to obese Americans. I was talking about the majority of bodybuilders not Americans. Don't overthink things so much.

Listen, I'm not saying you are wrong. Scientifically, on paper, you are completely correct that 200+ will build muscle without fat buuuuuut what I am saying is that the average Joe on here isn't going to be able to nail that EXACT 200+ mark so by just making sure they are gaining weight each week and not freaking out if they gain a little fat works better in the real world. Besides, once you have that increased muscle mass burning fat off is easy.

[dyson33]

if you want my opinion, i think it ALL depends on individual goals and necessities based off of the sport or shape they want.

If you want to build muscle, you MUST eat a lot....take it from me...i started lifting having no idea what i was doing in terms of diet,rest, cardio, etc.. and of course i experienced my quick beginning gains that always happen. However, once i started getting into quality lifting shape, i noticed for a LONG time my strength was not improving...only being maintained.

Then I FINALLY learned after months of waste that I have to start eating a lot more(especially protein). My concern, like many others on these forums is that "OH no ill gain fat, i don't want that!" and the fact of the matter is YES YOU WILL. But if you do it right your body fat % will actually go DOWN through gaining fat. WTF I DON'T WANT FAT!

It's simple math, if you weigh let's say 160. You hit the gym hard and eat a lot of quality foods. Through time you go up to 170. But if you gained 9 lbs of muscle and 1 lb of fat, your body fat percent most likely goes down.

in conclusion, i used to be one of those people that was like "omg i want to gain muscle and lose fat." The fact is that unless you're a freak, it is not possible.(excluding the noob gains) So when you come on here asking for help on gaining muscle... for the love of god eat, but only eat GOOD foods. This means eliminating fast food, soda, sugary junk food.

and yes include cardio in your bulk...but be sure that the amount of cardio you utilize is in proportion to the amount of food you eat. For instance, never do cardio thinking "i want to lose fat" during a bulk. Think of it as balancing those excessive calories to eliminate too much fat gain.

In theory, if you don't care about ANYTHING but muscle gains,(you're not an athlete who has to maintain a certain fat %)the less cardio, the better, and the more food the better.

Just treat your caloric intake and cardio as ways to balance your workout, not contribute to literally dropping fat weight.

cutting is an entirely different subject. It is the exact opposite of bulking. Typically the goal when cutting is not to gain muscle...because it won't happen. Muscles need calories to grow! Lifting during a cut will help maintain strength, but not increase it.

Sorry I am so animate on this subject, it's just i am pissed off enough that i wasted a lot of my time working out without proper knowledge, i don't want others to make the same mistake. Hope I could help.

[Chicken Arms]

Originally Posted by canyonracerx

I don't know if there is a language barrier or something going on here but alot of your post made little sense. Bulking is not a silly term, it means eating in a calorie surplus plain and simple, just like cutting means eating in a calorie defecit. It doesn't specify how much, it could be 1000+ or 10+, it's not a specific term like you think it is. Trying to eat at only 100-200 calories over maint. is how 99% of the newbs on this board stay skinny year after year and why they are all "hardgainers". Trying to walk the fine line between eating just enough to gain muscle but not to much to gain any fat is damn near impossible for just about any average gym goer but you don't have to listen to me, go give it a shot. I'll put money down that the "majority" who try to follow that rule will still look the same in 2 years.

I can attest to that. When I first started trying to bulk I was trying to eat just slightly over maintenance and gain about .5 pound per week...well some weeks i gained a little weight and some weeks i actually LOST a little. The problem was my energy ependiture is different every day. One day I might laze around, the next day I might have a million things to do and burn off a whole bunch of calories...so my weight stayed basically the same.

I found if I aimed to gain 1-2 pounds a week it gives me a buffer zone sort of. Some weeks I might gain almost two pounds and some weeks I might gain .5 pound. Once i started doing that I started to gain some noticable muscle.

I think if I could do the exact same thing everyday, have my food portions measured exactly, and gain .25-.5 pounds a week that would be awesome. I found it basically impossible to do though.