Nut Misc "Do You Even Lift?" Thread

[psychodiver9]

I want to be really lean, but I want to get stronger. what do?

Disregard v taper and aquire prs

[Lvisaa2]

I want to do both at the same time

Then do it. Eat a very moderate deficit and keep getting stronger. Maintain once you get low enough until you adjust to the new weight/bf%.

[JasonDB]

Then do it. Eat a very moderate deficit and keep getting stronger. Maintain once you get low enough until you adjust to the new weight/bf%.

There are limits to this. If people who have built a very powerful strength base could continually gain strength in a deficit or even at maintenance calories, we would have a lot more 181 lbs drug free trainees benching 600, squating 800 and deadlifting 900.

[Lvisaa2]

There are limits to this. If people who have built a very powerful strength base could continually gain strength in a deficit or even at maintenance calories, we would have a lot more 181 lbs drug free trainees benching 600, squating 800 and deadlifting 900.

Yes, but I think most under estimate the ability to continue strength gains while in a deficit. E can speak to exact numbers, but I know he has added a good amount to his total while being in a deficit for a good portion of it. Sure there is a limit, but why not test your own personal limit? Or should we just assume it is impossible and all get fat so we can be 'stronger'?

[JasonDB]

Yes, but I think most under estimate the ability to continue strength gains while in a deficit. E can speak to exact numbers, but I know he has added a good amount to his total while being in a deficit for a good portion of it. Sure there is a limit, but why not test your own personal limit? Or should we just assume it is impossible and all get fat so we can be 'stronger'?

Yes there absolutely will come a point where you will have to do that to some extent. Now if you think I am wrong, feel free to prove me wrong, get your bench up to 500 and your squat to 700 without eating at a surplus.

My point wasn't that it (gaining strength in a deficit) cannot be done but rather that the stronger you get the more difficult it will become, and you will reach a point where you cannot gain more strength without eating in a surplus. Again if it were possible to [bc]ontinually[/b] gain strength at a deficit or surplus we would see more guys after 15-20 years of continual training benching 4x bw and squating 5-6x bw. With an individual such as LIME who is already benching past 2x bw and squating over 2.5x bw, your advice might not actually be practical or workable. He may not be able to gain any strength in a deficit from where he is right now. I'm not saying he can't, I am saying that it is very well possible than he can't. He can certainly try, however it may not be obtainable. If it turns out to not be obtainable, he will have wasted time and energy towards his goals.

[illiniStrive]

Yes, but I think most under estimate the ability to continue strength gains while in a deficit. E can speak to exact numbers, but I know he has added a good amount to his total while being in a deficit for a good portion of it. Sure there is a limit, but why not test your own personal limit? Or should we just assume it is impossible and all get fat so we can be 'stronger'?

Yeah but didn't E say that prior to 2011 he had never squatted parallel and never trained deadlifts regularly? I think there's a difference between that and where LIME is now, no offense intended.

Not saying that strength gains are IMPOSSIBRU, but the stronger someone gets the tougher small increments get. The difference between a 300 and 350 deadlift for a guy isn't so much... the difference between a 550 and 600 deadlift for a natural trainee? Pretty large

Then again I partially think LIME is just trolling.

[ErickStevens]

Yeah but didn't E say that prior to 2011 he had never squatted parallel and never trained deadlifts regularly? I think there's a difference between that and where LIME is now, no offense intended.

Pretty much. My gains in 2011 were mostly a result of neurological adaptation. Squatting at least 2x per week for 12 months probably helped. I hit a wall at ~195lbs and pretty much decided to gain 15-20lbs in order to keep progressing.

LIME could easily go Jamie Lewis and drop ~20lbs the week before a weigh in.

[Lvisaa2]

Yes there absolutely will come a point where you will have to do that to some extent. Now if you think I am wrong, feel free to prove me wrong, get your bench up to 500 and your squat to 700 without eating at a surplus.

My point wasn't that it (gaining strength in a deficit) cannot be done but rather that the stronger you get the more difficult it will become, and you will reach a point where you cannot gain more strength without eating in a surplus. Again if it were possible to [bc]ontinually[/b] gain strength at a deficit or surplus we would see more guys after 15-20 years of continual training benching 4x bw and squating 5-6x bw. With an individual such as LIME who is already benching past 2x bw and squating over 2.5x bw, your advice might not actually be practical or workable. He may not be able to gain any strength in a deficit from where he is right now. I'm not saying he can't, I am saying that it is very well possible than he can't. He can certainly try, however it may not be obtainable. If it turns out to not be obtainable, he will have wasted time and energy towards his goals.

No offensive to LIME, but I don't think he is at the point where you need to do it(get fat). Granted everyone responds differently, but we have somewhat similar benches(granted he is lighter ), his squat ****s on mine and his DL is similar. Even without a completely strength based routine, I've been adding strength in a pretty severe deficit. I can not speak to whether it is possible for him, but I simply told him the way I'd go about it.

I swear you just want to argue with anyone who even suggests a cut. No one is telling you that you need to cut, but others may have different methods, strategies, and routes.

@ Illni, I didn't learn to properly squat or even DL(ondatIonTime) until the middle of last year. Feelsbadman.

[joelash302]

No offensive to LIME, but I don't think he is at the point where you need to do it(get fat). Granted everyone responds differently, but we have somewhat similar benches(granted he is lighter ), his squat ****s on mine and his DL is similar. Even without a completely strength based routine, I've been adding strength in a pretty severe deficit. I can not speak to whether it is possible for him, but I simply told him the way I'd go about it.

I swear you just want to argue with anyone who even suggests a cut. No one is telling you that you need to cut, but others may have different methods, strategies, and routes.

@ Illni, I didn't learn to properly squat or even DL(ondatIonTime) until the middle of last year. Feelsbadman.

I want to argue this, but I look at the PL raw rankings and I can not. Even the tested raw numbers are staggering.

[JasonDB]

No offensive to LIME, but I don't think he is at the point where you need to do it(get fat). Granted everyone responds differently, but we have somewhat similar benches(granted he is lighter ), his squat ****s on mine and his DL is similar. Even without a completely strength based routine, I've been adding strength in a pretty severe deficit. I can not speak to whether it is possible for him, but I simply told him the way I'd go about it.

I swear you just want to argue with anyone who even suggests a cut. No one is telling you that you need to cut, but others may have different methods, strategies, and routes.

@ Illni, I didn't learn to properly squat or even DL(ondatIonTime) until the middle of last year. Feelsbadman.

You seem to enjoy arguing when anyone suggest that one might need to eat at some point to gain strength just as much as I argue about the cut. ;-)

Keep in mind that I did a hard cut from August all the way to New Year, on a strength routine and took my squat from 225 to 315 whilst losing 30 lbs.... and have continued to lose fat slowly since then after upping my calories, and am still not by any means on a "true bulk". Granted I am coming back from a long detrained state and started using "help" in 2012.... but the point is I'm clearly not anti-cut, and have continually lost fat every month since last summer.

You have good genetics, and train very very hard and have achieved great results for it, and that is something to be proud of. However you've only been at this a short while, and perhaps haven't observed or worked with many trainees yet. Not everyone has the same ability, nor are they at the same level of development. There are people who are at a certain level of size or strength development who simply will not gain strength when cutting, and who will even regress slightly on their lifts on a cut regardless of how hard they train or how good their routine is. This is fine, because they can always regain the strength after they cut. So I am not saying they shouldn't cut, or shouldn't care about their bodyweight or body fat... only that there comes a point in everyone's development where they will have to pick and chose short term goals and can't have it all at once. The same will happen to you eventually as well. You will reach a point where you will not be able to get your squat or your bench any higher without eating more. I'm not saying that is where you are now, only that it will happen if you continue to train and progress.

[Lvisaa2]

I'm aware that people may respond differently, hence why if you read my last post, I specifically said that and he'd have to test it on his own. At a certain point, everything has to be maximized to add anything to the bar. I get that, I just think if he wants to be lean(not sure if he is trolling or not) then there is a possibility of doing it will continuing to progress in his strength goals.

Btw, before this cut I was on a bulk gaining ~4 lbs a month and am actually have/am a strong advocate of building up a foundation before you even contemplate cutting. 4/14 is my last day cutting then I'll be back to bulking until summer; wish some events had fallen differently so I could have a little different schedule, but that's life. Here in a few days, I'll post my bulking routine. It is relatively set, but you may have a few suggestions.

[JasonDB]

I'm aware that people may respond differently, hence why if you read my last post, I specifically said that and he'd have to test it on his own. At a certain point, everything has to be maximized to add anything to the bar. I get that, I just think if he wants to be lean(not sure if he is trolling or not) then there is a possibility of doing it will continuing to progress in his strength goals.

Btw, before this cut I was on a bulk gaining ~4 lbs a month and am actually have/am a strong advocate of building up a foundation before you even contemplate cutting. 4/14 is my last day cutting then I'll be back to bulking until summer; wish some events had fallen differently so I could have a little different schedule, but that's life. Here in a few days, I'll post my bulking routine. It is relatively set, but you may have a few suggestions.

Fair enough, in your defense you did say that, and we really are agreeing on the important points, and I think we both are getting a little trolled by LIME here who is probably enjoying our argument. Can we kiss and make up now?

I'll be more than happy to look over your routine and offer any advices. I think you have insane genetic potential and are still quite a few years away from hitting your peak, and will offer any advice I can to help you get there.

Dispite the tongue in cheek UC thread I certain do care about my own bf or I would not be using cow vitamins as my only "supplement", or be counting my calories and macros etc right now and would be doing a full on fulk to get my squat to 500+ for reps asap.... and everyone here knows I will eventually go "Ok gaise I want to get ripped and make my weight class this coming year... shreading to 198".

[ErickStevens]

I'm not cutting till late August and it will only be a mini-cut for my wedding. I'll probably gain ~10lbs over my honeymoon/holidays so I'm just peppering for that. I won't be cutting until March 2013 (bodybuilding) or till I hit a 1500lb total, whichever comes first.

[HunterCML]

I'm not cutting till late August and it will only be a mini-cut for my wedding. I'll probably gain ~10lbs over my honeymoon/holidays so I'm just peppering for that. I won't be cutting until March 2013 (bodybuilding) or till I hit a 1500lb total, whichever comes first.

If you hit 1500 before prep starts, how much off your total do you think you'll lose?

[JasonDB]

I'm not cutting till late August and it will only be a mini-cut for my wedding. I'll probably gain ~10lbs over my honeymoon/holidays so I'm just peppering for that. I won't be cutting until March 2013 (bodybuilding) or till I hit a 1500lb total, whichever comes first.

Understandable. I started cutting from 245 during my honeymoon becuase I realized I was still massively out of shape and had a new bride.

Anywho yeah for me I see no point in doing anything close to a serious cut until I can pull 600 and squat 500. Once those are hit I'll cut as quickly as I can without compromising strength and get down in the 200ish range.

[PerpetualMotion]

Weak everywhere. Everything needed to get stronger. Weak Point Training, while good in theory, suggests that you have "strong points." I'm sorry, but few people with such glaring holes can really classify themselves as strong, period.

Stupid, Wendler. I got a 288 wilks, bra.

[Lvisaa2]

If I didn't cut until I hit a 500 squat then I'll have like 2 years . I fully expect to be pulling 650+ and benching well into the 400s before I squat 500. Squatting still feels like sh!t to me. If I wasn't stubborn I'd contemplate completely dropping them. I think I'm poorly structured for squatting.

@Jason, when I debate I'm never actually mad. I am a philosophy major, it is my job to argue. <3 - half the fun is hearing other perspectives and either agreeing/disagreeing. Still makes you think either way

[JasonDB]

If I didn't cut until I hit a 500 squat then I'll have like 2 years . I fully expect to be pulling 650+ and benching well into the 400s before I squat 500. Squatting still feels like sh!t to me. If I wasn't stubborn I'd contemplate completely dropping them. I think I'm poorly structured for squatting.

@Jason, when I debate I'm never actually mad. I am a philosophy major, it is my job to argue. <3 - half the fun is hearing other perspectives and either agreeing/disagreeing. Still makes you think either way

I'm a natural squater, so expect to hit 500 again this year. I'll hit 500 squat before 600 pull and 400 bench.

I don't get mad either honestly, I'm a professional troll though so am used to stiring the pot, and your calm collected responses actually bug me a bit because I can't get a reaction out of you as easily as the majority. LoL

[joelash302]

If I didn't cut until I hit a 500 squat then I'll have like 2 years . I fully expect to be pulling 650+ and benching well into the 400s before I squat 500. Squatting still feels like sh!t to me. If I wasn't stubborn I'd contemplate completely dropping them. I think I'm poorly structured for squatting.

Agreed. Except substitute 2 years to squat 500 for 10 years, and bench 400's to never.

[ErickStevens]

If you hit 1500 before prep starts, how much off your total do you think you'll lose?

Probably a good 200lbs I imagine. srs

[Chuck2600]

How often do you guys deadlift?

I started again 3 weeks ago once a week but I included deads on thursday too, I found the next day my leg day really suffered then monday my regular dl day I was not as strong. Going heavy, 4-5 sets 3-5 reps

[mkal]

How often do you guys deadlift?

I started again 3 weeks ago once a week but I included deads on thursday too, I found the next day my leg day really suffered then monday my regular dl day I was not as strong. Going heavy, 4-5 sets 3-5 reps

I've done 1x/Week for years and it's worked well for me, some people have better success with deadlifts doing less deadlifting but more squatting.

[snrygo]

^^i pull once a week but also do an assitance excercise once a week as well

[JasonDB]

How often do you guys deadlift?

I started again 3 weeks ago once a week but I included deads on thursday too, I found the next day my leg day really suffered then monday my regular dl day I was not as strong. Going heavy, 4-5 sets 3-5 reps

Massively debated question with no clear answer although most people will tell you that most people should try to deadlift heavy more than once a week. Using squating for your high frequency lower body work.

[ErickStevens]

Yo Matt - Thoughts on Coan/Philippi? I'm thinking about giving it a run post-Smolov.

[tswdan]

How often do you guys deadlift?

I started again 3 weeks ago once a week but I included deads on thursday too, I found the next day my leg day really suffered then monday my regular dl day I was not as strong. Going heavy, 4-5 sets 3-5 reps

DL or squat 2x a week at least, but it rotates. Usually something like this..

ME Lower: me squat, rack pull
DE Lower: deficit deads, bb glute bridge

ME Lower: me dl, box squat
DE Lower: pause squats, gm

[mkal]

Yo Matt - Thoughts on Coan/Philippi? I'm thinking about giving it a run post-Smolov.

By *far* my favorite deadlift routine. I adapted the periodization to squats and pulled off a squat PR at my meet, while cutting. I'm jumping on C/P again after my Smolov run. The biggest thing about C/P to keep in mind is that the program is made in the accessory work. Be strict with the time between sets/circuits (it sucks but it's worth it). Generally I'd say do not change the accessory exercises, but you're more experienced than the usual person that runs it for the first time, so I'd say check the accessory work and compare against your specific weak points and adapt as needed (but keep the rep/set volume the same).

[Lvisaa2]

For DLs, I've had the best improvement with 1x weekly and higher volume DLs in that day. Add in a squat that has carryover to your DL and your good. At lower weights, I did it more frequently, but after a while that took a toll with squatting frequently.

[SOJA]

What's LIME? Some new training protocol?

[t1ger]

What's LIME? Some new training protocol?

LegosInMyEgos