Science Behind Creatine Timing?

[progressive19]

Hello all,

I understand the capricious nature of the supplement industry, and I've read countless articles on supplement timing, but I've recently run into some conflicting advice as to when and how to take creatine.

Some articles say to drink it with water about 30 minutes before your workout. Others say to take it in your protein shake immediately after your workout. Some say to take creatine with glutamine. Others say that they use the same substrate and fight for entry into the cell. Some say that loading is absolutely necessary; others that loading is a scheme developed by supplement companies to sell more creatine.

To illustrate my point, here's a excerpt taken from the Supplement Research Foundation website stating that:

"It is important to load creatine for five days by consuming 20-30 grams of creatine daily. This allows for muscle cells to be completely saturated with creatine. After the loading phase, a maintenance dosage of 5-15 grams daily can be used to maintain muscle creatine saturation."

Then, on the SAME website, it states:

"There was a study published in the Journal of Applied Physiology last year that showed that individuals taking 3 grams of creatine daily for a month and bypassing the loading phase, can reach the same muscle creatine saturation levels as if they loaded for 5 days using a higher amount of creatine."

Needless to say, I am befuddled.

Since even competitive bodybuilders can't seem to agree on a time and method, I'm asking for your opinions and hopefully some science to back them up. Have any of you tried taking creatine one way and then another? What were the results? Did you take creatine every day or just on days you worked out? Did you load?

As for me, I've tried taking it before my workout with water, but I don't really see how you could benefit much from doing so. I'm not sure how long it takes, from ingestion, for creatine to be ready for use by the cell, but 30 minutes is a rather short period of time. Surely muscle cells would use previously stored creatine for ATP production long before the arrival of new creatine. But cell volumization, as far as I know, would create an anabolic environment inside the cell for increased absorption of protein afterward. Taking it post-workout, however, with protein and carbohydrates would seem to enhance recovery and prevent muscle break-down.

I've only recently begun taking it post-workout in my protein shake. I feel just as thirsty and drink just as much water as before, so I'm relatively certain that mixing it with protein has not reduced its effect. I'd love to find out that my experimentation isn't necessary, though. Hence my post.

Thanks in advance for any help,


prog19

[BigTruckGuy3500]

I'd also like to know the answer to this. I just got my creatine, and I'm about to workout. From what I've read and people told me I'm going to take it post workout.

[sanniejj]

I never ever faced scientific reports regarding these questions. Hopefully some genius will find some answers to optimize the use of this great product.

[pu12en12g]

Personally, I think creatine preworkout and immediately postworkout are about equal assuming that it is taken with carbs. However, I prefer preworkout and sometimes BOTH with carbs.

I am no expert, and I have never seen a study showing exactly how long it takes creatine to absorb, but if creatine is in your system and starting to absorb postworkout, that seems optimal to me.

Also, it should be noted that many non-responders have increased their creatine dosage and "responded"

My .02

[nicesocks]

All I can relate is my experience.

When I do a cycle I take 5g a day, every day for about 15-20 days or as long as i remmeber to keep taking it. Then i start to ween off it and take it every other to every 3 days until about 40 days is over and i stop.

I see the effects almost immediatley, ie 2 days or so, but I can'tsay that i'm seeing the full potential effects of creatine with my 5g dose.


When I first got my creatine I went with the recommeneded dosage on the bottle, which was 10g for a week followed by a constant 5g a day afterwards.
I don't remember if that worked out better, but I dont think it did or I wouldn't of cycled back on it w/ 5g a day after that.

Also as a study that I have read indicated, I do notice that when i stop taking it i still retain some of its effects for a while. A study I read said even after 30days your levels will still be above normal and I believe it.

Thats all i can tell you.. oh i take it with just water.. uhm watch out for citric fruitjuices because its an alkaline... yeah so hope this helps some

EDIT: Forgot to say, I take it whenever its most convenient in the day to take it, doesn't matter if its post or pre workout or whatever to me, but i'm gonna cycle back on and see if i notice any diff if i take it immediatley before working out, or an hour before

[Clayton South]

It is generally recommeneded to take 5g creatine thirty minutes before your workout. After your workout it is best to consume 20g of whey protein, followed 1/2 hour later by 60g of simple carbohydrates and 40g more of whey protien. At this time consume 5g of creatine.

Carbohydrates are known to drive down IGF-1 levels, hence the recommendation on the carbohydrate timing. Amino acids will serve to hold back cortisol levels as the liver will oxidize them for energy.

Hope that helps.

-Clayton South

[progressive19]

Thanks to those who replied. Today I went out and bought a 2 lb tub of ON's 100% Whey and found a prize inside! And by prize, I mean "ON's 100% Whey Protein Quick Reference Guide." Yes, I was disappointed, but inside I found ON's take on my question.

Optimum Nutrition
For faster post-workout recovery, try mixing a serving of creatine powder and less-acidic fruit juice (apple or grape) with your whey protein. The combination of protein, simple sugars, and creatine quickly and effectively replenishes your body's amino acids, glycogen, and Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP) stores.

Until there's a definitive answer to the question of Creatine Timing, I think I'll go with Clayton's advice. 5 g pre-workout and another 5 after should cover my bases well enough to see some results. Now, the question of what to take it in...


prog19

[Erosado17]

I think that taking creatine pre workout as well as post workout is best. The science. Pre Workout Creatine will keep levels ATP up. Post workout Creatine will help with your recovery after a workout. Thats just my oppinion post if you agree.

[gregxy]

It doesn't say what they used. I guess you need to buy the article to find that out.

Here is the summary:

Effect of a 10-week strength training program and recovery drink on body composition, muscular strength and endurance, and anaerobic power and capacity.

Chromiak JA, Smedley B, Carpenter W, Brown R, Koh YS, Lamberth JG, Joe LA, Abadie BR, Altorfer G.

Department of Kinesiology, Mississippi State University, Mississippi State, Mississippi 39762-6186, USA. jchrom@colled.msstate.edu

OBJECTIVE: We investigated whether postexercise consumption of a supplement containing whey protein, amino acids, creatine, and carbohydrate combined with a strength training program promotes greater gains in fat-free mass (FFM), muscle strength and endurance, and anaerobic performance compared with an isocaloric, carbohydrate-only control drink combined with strength training. METHODS: The study was double blind and randomized, and the experimental supplement was compared with a carbohydrate-only control. Forty-one males (n = 20 in control group, n = 21 in the supplement group; mean age, 22.2 y) participated in a 4 d/wk, 10-wk periodized strength training program. Subjects had to complete at least 70% of the workouts. Before and after 10 wk of strength training, subjects were tested for body composition by using hydrostatic weighing and skinfold thicknesses, one repetition maximum strength and muscular endurance for the bench press and 45-degree leg press, and anaerobic performance using a 30-s Wingate test. Thirty-three subjects (80.5%) completed the training program (n = 15 in control group, n = 18 in the supplement); these 33 subjects also completed all post-training test procedures. Data were analyzed with two-way analysis of variance with repeated measures on time. P <== 0.05 was set as statistically significant. All statistical analyses, including calculation of effect size and power, were completed with SPSS 11.0. RESULTS: Across groups, FFM increased during 10 wk of strength training. Although there was no statistically significant time x group interaction for FFM, there was a trend toward a greater increase in FFM for the supplement group (+3.4 kg) compared with the control group (+1.5 kg; P = 0.077). The effect size (eta(2) = 0.100) was moderately large. Percentage of body fat declined and fat mass was unchanged; there were no differences between groups. One repetition maximum strength for the bench press and 45-degree leg press increased, but there were no differences between groups. Muscular endurance expressed as the number of repetitions completed with 85% of the one repetition maximum was unchanged; external work, which was estimated as repetitions completed x resistance used, increased for the 45-degree leg press but not for the bench press over the 10-wk training period; there were no time x group interactions for either measurement. Anaerobic power and capacity improved, but there were no differences between groups for these variables or for fatigue rate. CONCLUSIONS: Consumption of a recovery drink after strength training workouts did not promote greater gains in FFM compared with consumption of a carbohydrate-only drink; however, a trend toward a greater increase in FFM in the supplement group suggests the need for longer-term studies. Performance variables such as muscle strength and endurance and anaerobic performance were not improved when compared with the carbohydrate-only group.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 15105028 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[zuche]

try thirty minutes before going to work out

[pu12en12g]

http://jap.physiology.org/content/vo...0900152001.gif

^^^ This should clear things up

[pu12en12g]

more...

Originally Posted by Author L Rea

The body has 3 periods when creatine uptake is highest:

After A Nights Sleep

After a nights sleep, the body is in a fasted stated due to a period of natural GH pulses (about half of your daily total GH production is released during the first 4 hours of sleep) and a prolonged period without nutrients. This results in an up-regulation of nutrient transporters and enzymes which favor intramuscular uptake of nutrients, including Creatine.

Ingestion 45-90 Minutes Before A Work-out

When Creatine is ingested 45-90 minutes before a work-out, an athlete can take advantage of the training induced increases in blood flow to muscle tissue to transport essential nutrients across muscle cell membranes. (This also acts as a buffer to lactic acid).

Since high intensity work-outs trigger the release of adrenal hormones such as Epinephrine and Norepinephrine, the cellular uptake of nutrients is improved. Remember, Ephedrine increases cellular uptake? Well Ephedrine is an Epinephrine Mimicker.

The First 45-90 Minutes Following A Work-out

Within the first 45-90 minutes following an intense work-out, the body is in a very nutrient receptive state. Heavy training reduces muscle glycogen stores (glycogen comes from blood sugars such as carbs) and receptor-sites for nutrients become sensitive.

This means the body is in a catabolic state requiring nutrient supply. Several storage enzymes are up-regulated and creatine (CP) levels are lower which of course means intramuscular nutrient storage ability is at a high level. It also means the muscle cells need ATP regeneration.

^^ I hope this helps you out. I know it started to really clear things up for me.

[BringnIt]

I wouldn't say ephedrine is a epinephrine mimicker. Stimulator, yes. Could be wrong.

Aside from that, I believe the last time I saw you post one of Rea's articles, he called synephrine a BAA, I believe, which Loki quickly discredited.

That said, I do my creatine at the exact same times he says which is a little odd (creatine mono. with whey first thing in the morning, 3 grams of CEE in my whey prior to working out, 5 grams of creatine mono. with 1 gram of ribose and whey post-workout.) I find I don't even need the carbs that way, but I certainly wouldn't recommend everyone do it carbless.

[cockySWOLE]

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

Originally Posted by Author L Rea
The body has 3 periods when creatine uptake is highest:

After A Nights Sleep

After a nights sleep, the body is in a fasted stated due to a period of natural GH pulses (about half of your daily total GH production is released during the first 4 hours of sleep) and a prolonged period without nutrients. This results in an up-regulation of nutrient transporters and enzymes which favor intramuscular uptake of nutrients, including Creatine.

Ingestion 45-90 Minutes Before A Work-out

When Creatine is ingested 45-90 minutes before a work-out, an athlete can take advantage of the training induced increases in blood flow to muscle tissue to transport essential nutrients across muscle cell membranes. (This also acts as a buffer to lactic acid).

Since high intensity work-outs trigger the release of adrenal hormones such as Epinephrine and Norepinephrine, the cellular uptake of nutrients is improved. Remember, Ephedrine increases cellular uptake? Well Ephedrine is an Epinephrine Mimicker.

The First 45-90 Minutes Following A Work-out

Within the first 45-90 minutes following an intense work-out, the body is in a very nutrient receptive state. Heavy training reduces muscle glycogen stores (glycogen comes from blood sugars such as carbs) and receptor-sites for nutrients become sensitive.

This means the body is in a catabolic state requiring nutrient supply. Several storage enzymes are up-regulated and creatine (CP) levels are lower which of course means intramuscular nutrient storage ability is at a high level. It also means the muscle cells need ATP regeneration

First, of all ephedrine is an epinephrine mimicker in that it stimulates the CNS in a similar way. It does not stimulate the CNS as strongly as epinephrine, but for a longer duration.

Second, ephedrine stimulates epinephrine very little. Most of its action is from the increase in norepinephrine at pre-synaptic nerve terminals. I think a lot of people think ephedrine=epinephrine. No, ephedrine=norepinephrine.

Third, I don't know who the hell this L REA guy is but adrenal hormones are evelated during training but don't help cellular uptake. Adrenal hormones actually cause insulin resistance in muscle cells. Resistance exercise promotes insulin sensitivity in the muscle probably from an increase in GLUT4 transporters which overrides this effect by the adrenal hormones. Its the increase in insulin sensitivity and glycogen depletion that aids cellular uptake.

Finally, besides those distinctions morning, pre and post workout does sound like a good way to supplement creatine with morning intake being the least necessary.

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by cockySWOLE

Third, I don't know who the hell this L REA guy is.....

http://technologyorgasm.com/upload/Author_L_Rea.jpg

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/author10.htm

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/core_feb_3.htm

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/author22.htm

[cockySWOLE]

I give Auther L Rea props for being a big mofo and making quite a transformation, but I still disagree with some of his statements.

Pu12en12g, you know Skip Lacour has a book out. He's pretty big too, maybe you should go buy it.

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by cockySWOLE

I give Auther L Rea props for being a big mofo and making quite a transformation, but I still disagree with some of his statements.

Pu12en12g, you know Skip Lacour has a book out. He's pretty big too, maybe you should go buy it.

....and maybe you should tell us your education and qualifications AND post a photo as a bonus.

[PowerSwede]

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

....and maybe you should tell us your education and qualifications AND post a photo as a bonus.

I have asked him to before, there was a thread regarding people with names like "Swole" and their real life size, he went berzerk and started shouting about how big he is, it was a fun thread, well, for me at least.

I think he's tiny and tries to make up for it with a big mouth.

[Bill Gates]

Originally Posted by cockySWOLE

I give Auther L Rea props for being a big mofo and making quite a transformation, but I still disagree with some of his statements.

Pu12en12g, you know Skip Lacour has a book out. He's pretty big too, maybe you should go buy it.

L Rea is a steroid expert & he has two steroid books, chemical muscle enhancement and building the prefect beast as well as working with pro athletes, two of his pro BBders were Toney Freeman & Milos Sarcef (pro BBder & Nutritionist).

[cockySWOLE]

Originally Posted by PowerSwede

I have asked him to before, there was a thread regarding people with names like "Swole" and their real life size, he went berzerk and started shouting about how big he is, it was a fun thread, well, for me at least.
I think he's tiny and tries to make up for it with a big mouth.

You've never asked for a pic before PowerSuede. Here you go. Now, please shut the f**k up. You think you got this read on me and you don't. Its kind of funny.

I try to contribute to this board when I have time. If you disagree with me on my statements then prove me wrong through intelligent discourse. I'm in pharmacy school pu12en. What are your qualifications?

Bill Gates, your preaching to the choir. I don't doubt at all that he is a steriod guru. He's huge. Those are the type of people who when they give advice I run because I'm natural and a lot of their info is not applicable to the unenhanced.

Lok7y has pointed out some inaccuracies in his writings as well. I don't see ya'll jumping all over him.

And for that pic, that was about a year ago at 180 or so and around 12% bodyfat. I'll try to post a new pic when I'm done cutting currently 200 around 13% bodyfat. I don't have my camera hooked up-USB ports are full right now.

[BringnIt]

Ah, but that's because Loki is beyond reproach from mere mortals such as us.

[PowerSwede]

Originally Posted by cockySWOLE

You've never asked for a pic before PowerSuede. Here you go. Now, please shut the f**k up. You think you got this read on me and you don't. Its kind of funny.

I try to contribute to this board when I have time. If you disagree with me on my statements then prove me wrong through intelligent discourse. I'm in pharmacy school pu12en. What are your qualifications?

Bill Gates, your preaching to the choir. I don't doubt at all that he is a steriod guru. He's huge. Those are the type of people who when they give advice I run because I'm natural and a lot of their info is not applicable to the unenhanced.

Lok7y has pointed out some inaccuracies in his writings as well. I don't see ya'll jumping all over him.

And for that pic, that was about a year ago at 180 or so and around 12% bodyfat. I'll try to post a new pic when I'm done cutting currently 200 around 13% bodyfat. I don't have my camera hooked up-USB ports are full right now.

I have pointed out inaccuracies in L Rea's writings before, i even e-mailed him but got no reply (it was regarding creatine and caffeine, that caffeine affects absorbtion of creatine which it doesn't, it has other effect though like i have stated numerous times), that's not what makes everyone jump on you, the point is that pu12en12g is a nice, knowledgeble guy who has helped a lot of people on this forum, him and me disagree on some things but at least we act like adults about it and respectfully disagree instead of throwing out comments like the one you posted.


You implied that pu12en12g is stupid and buys everything anyone who is big says, you could have kept that comment to yourself but you didn't, so you what you are getting is what you rightfully deserve.

At least you had the guts to post the pic this time. Not too shabby, you almost look like you have been working out, a bit flabby but nothing six months of diet couldn't fix.

[Bill Gates]

Originally Posted by cockySWOLE

Bill Gates, your preaching to the choir. .

of course not, I just gave u some info about L Rea, who he is and what he had done,...

Originally Posted by cockySWOLE

I don't doubt at all that he is a steriod guru. He's huge. Those are the type of people who when they give advice I run because I'm natural and a lot of their info is not applicable to the unenhanced. .

u are right

Originally Posted by cockySWOLE

Lok7y has pointed out some inaccuracies in his writings as well. I don't see ya'll jumping all over him.

.

nobody is prefect? name me a prefect guy? Bill Roberts, Dan Duchaine, Michael Gundill & other steroid experts have and had a dozen of mistakes in their writings. didn't they?

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by cockySWOLE

Finally, besides those distinctions morning, pre and post workout does sound like a good way to supplement creatine with morning intake being the least necessary.

I've re-read what you posted and can see that were (originally) just trying to help, with some minor clarifications. I made the mistake of taking your comment too personally.. my bad.

[pu12en12g]

More info:

Different mechanisms are involved in the ergogenic effects of Creatine supplementation:

(1) higher Phosphocreatine concentrations serving as an immediate buffer to ATP during exercise

(2) increased Phosphocreatine resynthesis rate during and after exercise due to increased levels of free Creatine

(3) smaller decrease in muscle pH during exercise

(4) enhanced training load and

(5) increasing muscle mass (absolute power output)

[Al Shades]

I think this is the optimal way to take it:

During workout w/carbs + aminos

PWO w/protein & carbs

[Herbalizer]

I've read a lot of Creatine threads here and a lot people even on the bottles it says to use WATER to mix. I had a discussion with a more experienced body builder and he highly suggested taking Creatine with Apple juice or Gatorade Pre-work out. The thing is Creatine needs a transporter to get to your muscles and cells.
When one just uses water the Creatine will just sit and absorb in your stomach, which is why one will have the Hershey Squirts and eventually piss out the Creatine.

I've been taking it Pre-workout with juice and drink a Protein shake immediatley afterwards and have seen great results. And I've never done the whole 5 day loading phase. Once I started taking creatine I never stopped. Good luck with your training.

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by Herbalizer

.....Pre-workout with juice

Juice is not optimal.

[artman934]

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

Juice is not optimal.

Agreed, dextrose maltodextrin would be optimal if one must use a sugar

[JTBull]

I like to enjoy whole food
i put creatine in my whey shake post workout w/milk
then i eat a banana, a cup of oats (with some dextrose)

pretty much covers all my carb bases

lactose and dextrose from milk and added sugar.
a slower complex carb oats
and then a banana for some nutrients and some fructose for the good ol liver