Max OT or HST?

[ChelNam]

bump.........

[powerman2000]

Originally Posted by Turbonod

For all that have used them, what did you have better results on for bulking? I have only used Max-ot with moderately good results, but lately have been thinking about HST.

lemme know

They were both created as marketing tools to help sell products.

They both suck!

[camarosuper6]

I have tried both and see value in both. But then again, nearly ANY form of weight training will stimulate results, especially if it is a drastic change from a routine you had been doing prior.

There are so many variables, that it would be nearly impossible to directly compare these two programs.

I have been a MAX-OT fan for almost 2 years, and have spent probably 70 percent of my "bodybuilding career" (notice the quotations) using it as a base for all my workouts. I see good results with it, and solid science behind it.

But it goes to show that an exact science for growth has conflicting information, and that strength training is much more straighforward (although powerlifters would probably argue with me).

Basically, IMO, the best way to grow is to train for strength. Whether or not they are DIRECTLY correlated is to be seen, but I believe for natrual trainee's that works best and most effeciently.

[Nightwolfer]

ive read true the whole thing . I was set up on doing max ot now im not sure anymore any one what would u guys do for Mass and slightly strenght increases MAx ot or Hst !!!!!!!!! I need some strenght i am weak for my size!.

[abar]

Originally Posted by powerman2000

They were both created as marketing tools to help sell products.

They both suck!

They both suck? Um... ok.

[MOD]

Originally Posted by powerman2000

They were both created as marketing tools to help sell products.

They both suck!

have you tried them, and how was your diet?


they both work under the same principle, sarcomere hypertrophy by using progressively heavier weights.

HST does this by using predetermined weights in a training cycle and not training to failure.

Max-OT does the same thing but you're training to failure and progressing the wieght as you gain strength.

They both work, for size gains for me both were similiar, but for strength I find Max-OT is best. And that's the only way I train.

So if you like to train hard and train to failure, use Max-OT. If not, do HST or another dual factor program.


Also I'd like to mention that HST has a higher frequency in an attempt to maximize protein synthesis. With Max-OT you're hitting bodyparts indirectly 2-3 times a week, so the frequency is there too.

[Tech2TheLimit]

i think that max ot is a great program. ill admit that it is geared more towards strength than size but this can be changed. max ot suggests 2-5 minute breaks in between sets but by minimzing your resting periods to about 90 seconds it will gain your more hypertrophy. you can also add some supersets into your max ot routine. i think that the staples that make up max ot are great, if i am going to try another program it will be OVT

[nelson b]

I think max-ot is a better program then hst right now im doing an 8-10 week cycle using the max-ot then i'll take a week off and start the GVT for more volume.

[powerman2000]

Originally Posted by MOD

Also I'd like to mention that HST has a higher frequency in an attempt to maximize protein synthesis. With Max-OT you're hitting bodyparts indirectly 2-3 times a week, so the frequency is there too.

lol, hst volume is way too low and max-ot is way too infrequent.

They are only workable for n00bs because a n00b can grow off of any protocol.

[slowplay]

I see too much missinformation here. Please understand this fact.

HST is a method of training designed to quickly and effectively induce whole body muscle growth. It is based on physiological principles of muscular hypertrophy. These principles were first discovered in the laboratory, and then organized into a method of training that would produce predictable and repeatable hypertrophic effects.

I was a skeptic at first. 15 reps? wtf? Well, after 6 weeks of following HST by the book I gained 12 pounds, my arms grew 1", my chest grew 3", and my legs grew 1" just from SLDL cause i couldnt do squats. And here's the kicker, I had to use an old universal machine to workout on cause im too poor to goto the gym. I've tried HIT, regular 3x10, and HST. HST is by far the best for size, best for no injuries. Strength gain was good; almost like a bi-product of the added size.

The biggest key was to forget my ego and follow the program. Second key was tuning the set/exersise volume. Looking back, 15 reps was very important to do. I highly reccomend HST.

[mpz]

i would vote for MAX OT, HST's 15 reps is too much, could lead to Overtraining.

[powerman2000]

Originally Posted by slowplay

I see too much missinformation here. Please understand this fact.

HST is a method of training designed to quickly and effectively induce whole body muscle growth. It is based on physiological principles of muscular hypertrophy. These principles were first discovered in the laboratory, and then organized into a method of training that would produce predictable and repeatable hypertrophic effects.

I was a skeptic at first. 15 reps? wtf? Well, after 6 weeks of following HST by the book I gained 12 pounds, my arms grew 1", my chest grew 3", and my legs grew 1" just from SLDL cause i couldnt do squats. And here's the kicker, I had to use an old universal machine to workout on cause im too poor to goto the gym. I've tried HIT, regular 3x10, and HST. HST is by far the best for size, best for no injuries. Strength gain was good; almost like a bi-product of the added size.

The biggest key was to forget my ego and follow the program. Second key was tuning the set/exersise volume. Looking back, 15 reps was very important to do. I highly reccomend HST.

LOL

So you gained all that in just 6 weeks. I suppose it was all lean muscle mass too.

You must be a beginner trainee.

[Agression4fuel]

Originally Posted by Younglifter14

lmao. Right here:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/...t=ST;f=14;t=21

If you want other proof, feel free to check out the hst forums some more or ask bryan for some studies. It feels good seeing a study rather then jeff willet telling me I must use ast-ss's products in order to get maximum results in max-ot.

Well you said ask Bryan and that's my name I'm using Max-OT right now and that just BLEW my muscles up and I'm not even on anything but good food HST...tried it and well it's...nope stick to OT

[deepdeep]

Originally Posted by AJbuilder

Younglifter14

im assuming you are 14 years old , cause i'm not really sure but i think you are


at 14 i doubt you have a strong strength base to work with since you are at a young age. By strong i mean being able to bench at least 2 plates each side, deadlift 300 lbs, squat 325lbs, bb row 200lbs, etc.( you get the idea )
...

this is the only answer we want! thx

[Younglifter16]

was going through this thread for some good memories, and saw two recent posts directed to me. I rarely go into this forum anymore, but figured Id respond.

Originally Posted by Agression4fuel

Well you said ask Bryan and that's my name I'm using Max-OT right now and that just BLEW my muscles up and I'm not even on anything but good food HST...tried it and well it's...nope stick to OT

your going to quote a 4 year old post to try to make a joke?lol. Your 16 years old you'll gain with mostly any training, infact I reccomend max-ot for you at your age, until you build a solid foundation and really get to know your body.

Originally Posted by deepdeep

this is the only answer we want! thx

not sure if you were attacking me, but at 14 i could do most of the things he listed, and at 16 was up to benching 315 and deadlifting well over 400lbs. 17 came around and I hit 365 for a solid single on bench, and deadlifted 495lbs flat.

[Finnegan Bell]

Originally Posted by Younglifter16

was going through this thread for some good memories, and saw two recent posts directed to me. I rarely go into this forum anymore, but figured Id respond.




your going to quote a 4 year old post to try to make a joke?lol. Your 16 years old you'll gain with mostly any training, infact I reccomend max-ot for you at your age, until you build a solid foundation and really get to know your body.



not sure if you were attacking me, but at 14 i could do most of the things he listed, and at 16 was up to benching 315 and deadlifting well over 400lbs. 17 came around and I hit 365 for a solid single on bench, and deadlifted 495lbs flat.

Holy *** ,I was going to make a thread about where has Younglifter14 gone!! man u were a ****en genious kid ,u were pwning 25+ yo guys...

young

[Tweed]

I'm currently on Max-OT, but mainly for strength, not so much mass right now. But once after I'm going to go on HST.

[ElbowStrike]

Now, this is not a Max-OT vs. HST post. I was directed here at the end of an article on German Volume Training written by "HST". According to the link, this is the appropriate place to review this article I just read.

The GVT program was sorely misrepresented in this article. If this were the only article a person read about GVT, they would be sorely misinformed.

GVT is not a "10 sets of 10 with 60% 1RM" program.

The 10x10 protocol is the beginner/novice routine, done for the first 30 days of training in order to get the body used to high-volume training. The goal is not "endurance", it is adaptation to volume.

Also this part about strategic deconditioning/unloading:

"GVT training in its pure form does not take this factor into consideration. Nor has any training routine until the time of HST. Without Strategic Deconditioning, continued gains in size come glacially slow, or stop all together. After all, adaptation is the body's way of preventing any externally applied stimulus or environment from affecting the body."

is flat-out false. Not only does GVT account for strategic deconditioning, sport science in many parts of the world has accounted for "unloading" periods for athletes since the 1950s. But back to GVT...

After 6 x 5-day cycles of GVT, the trainee is to take two weeks off, doing a couple workouts of 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps per bodypart in order to recover from the intense previous 30 days. That looks like strategic deconditioning to me.

Then...

The REAL GVT starts, with 10 x 6 w. 12RM for 30 days, with two weeks of strategic deconditioning.

And the advanced trainee going on to...

10 x 6 @ 12RM the first cycle,
10 x 5 @ previous weight +4%
10 x 4 @ previous weight +4%
10 x 6 @ old 5-rep weight
10 x 5 @ old 4-rep weight
10 x 4 @ old 4-rep weight +4%

Then taking two weeks of strategic deconditioning, and then repeating this above advanced program formula for as long as they get results from it.

There are some varieties of GVT which advance to 10 sets of 3 reps with 6RM.

I hardly think training in the 1-6 rep range, with 6RM as anything to do with "endurance" training.

Now I'm all for promoting one's own training program, but if you're going to trash an alternative program at least be accurate about representing it. Otherwise that's straw-manning.

It reminds me of my kinesiology professors who would trash "high-protein" diets, and then use the argument that they are high in saturated fat. Sure, high protein diets *can* be high in saturated fat, but that doesn't mean they all are. Sure, a person *can* follow a 10x10 version of GVT, but that doesn't mean that GVT is 10x10.

-- ElbowStrike

[ronPaul]

so which is better?

[MasterKevin]

Originally Posted by ronPaul

so which is better?

I don't think there really is a "better" one. You need to try both to see which one works best for you and fits your lifestyle/body best.

I follow the MAX-OT program and it has done wonders for me. But everyones opinion should be different really.

The one major downfall about MAX-OT is it tells you to use 3 of there products, but if you are already on supplements/multis then stick with taking them, and just follow there WORKOUT program

[pratikray]

I had been lifting for just over an year when I decided to try out HST. Didnt do too well in terms of strength (there was some increase, but not as much as you might expect from most other 8 week program). I gained about 6 lbs in 8 weeks. Put on about 1/2 inch in arms, 1 inch in chest and 1/4 inch in waist. Over last 6 months, I dont think I have had this amount of change over 8 weeks period.

Couple of weeks back, I started yet another HST program (the previous one I referred to above was started 4 months or so back). This time, over the first 2 weeks (15 reps), I have gained 1.5lbs. On the last day of 15 rep cycle, the idea was to do the 15 rep max. As it turned out, the weights that were my 15 rep max seemed a tad lighter, and I could actually go to 17-18 reps in most of the exercises, although for preacher curls (third last exercise in my workout, before calf raises), I could manage 14 good ones, and a "heave-ho" kind of 15th rep. So, I definitely have improved my endurance, and probably a little bit on the strength front as well.

The good stuff about HST -
1. It really IS really hypertrophy specific.
2. Not much load on CNS for most part - although it takes a beating on the day of the max lifts
3. For most part, you dont risk an injury.

The bad stuff -
1. HST is really hypertrophy specific. Give it a bye if you are looking for strength.
2. Big bruise to the ego, especially during the first 4 workouts of the 6 workout micro-cycles. You really feel stupid lifting such light weights.

Personally, I feel that HST workout cycles used repeatedly will, like other workouts, result in stagnation of gains. Alternating strength, endurance and hypertrophy programs is what I am gonna do from now on.

[Hank19]

Wow, I guess I'm really bringing this thread back from the dead.

I had done a 12-week Max-OT program last year. I wanted to change things up a bit so I decided to give this a try.

Before I give out the results, I should first reveal what my 'base' is.
I'm a 34-year old guy that's been lifting since I was 20.
I'm 6'1 and 215 lbs.
My diet is pretty pathetic. I don't count calories, carbs, protein intake, etc. I'm married with 2-kids and on a fixed budget so I really don't have time to do all of that.
However, I do consume 2 protein shakes a day (50g protein each), one coming after each workout, while eating 6 small meals a day. I try my best to make the meals healthy with low-fat sandwiches, cut veggies and fruit.

So I would say I'm a pretty 'regular' guy when it comes to lifting. I'm not hard-core but I'm not Joe Workman who drinks beer and makes it to the gym once or twice every week or so.
I workout 5 times a week and make sure to get in 3 solid runs a week as well (2-3 miles at a time).

Before I began Max-OT last year my max flat-bench was 7-8reps @ 280lbs.

By the time I was done Max-OT I was benching 305 for 5 reps.
I really enjoyed my strength gains but I also noticed that I wasn't gaining much mass. At all.

Since I'm a naturally skinny guy I stopped the program and switched to one with less rest time, and more sets and reps.
I noticed that after making this change that I grew some mass back.
However, since stopping Max-OT my bench has suffered greatly.

I just started another Max-OT cycle today and was only able to lift 275 twice.
Now, a lot of that has to do with the fact that after finishing up Max-OT the first time, nearly 8 months ago, I haven't done any barbell bench pressing. I have only done strictly dumbbell presses. I know that has a lot to do with it.
It should also be noted that during last year I was on creatine, but since stopped because of cash-flow. That's probably got some effect too.

I've read a lot on the web and tried to piece together what seems to be science and what works for everyone else.

From what I've mustered it seems that more reps, with less rest, you'll gain more mass. I believe this has something to do with lactid acid breaking down the muscle and forcing it to grow. (again, I'm no scientist so I'm sure someone will correct me if my assumption is wrong).
With Max-OT, because you're doing less reps, your muscles won't be broken down with lactid acid but rather stressed enough for strength, which results in less mass being grown.

I might be wrong about all of that, but doing workouts with high-reps and lower weights (plus less rest), I noticed I built mass. But with higher weights, low reps and longer rest periods, I got stronger.

I'm at a crossroads right now. I'm turning 35 soon and I go back and forth as to what I want from my weight training.
Because I've always been thin, I want to be bigger. But at the same time, I want strength as well.
That's why I'll probably cycle in 8 weeks of Max-OT in between 8 weeks of programs such as HST or something similar.

But in my experience, I have never been stronger than when I was on Max-OT.

Just my $.02. Cheers.

Hank

[Nick666]

Read on HST you'll understand more how hypertrophy works. Go on hypertrophy-research.com too. Lots of studies there.

[Roldy]

somehow after reading about 12 pages of this i have only really read 5 posts about how the programs were, i guess thats just typical forum behavior.

I was looking into max OT program and it really just reminds me of a 5x5 program, which is what i originally started off doing and cycled through twice and made good strength gains. Which is what the 5x5 program is really all about, and by the looks of it same with max OT.

And to the people who have been saying it works, where are the pictures...and where are the pictures for the majority of people on this forum? It would be a hell of a lot more concrete for people who say this and that program work to post some pictures of themselves, wouldnt it?

I want to see some pictures of normal people who have been training for a good amount of time with some results for HST.

[micro wave]

Originally Posted by Roldy

somehow after reading about 12 pages of this i have only really read 5 posts about how the programs were, i guess thats just typical forum behavior.

I was looking into max OT program and it really just reminds me of a 5x5 program, which is what i originally started off doing and cycled through twice and made good strength gains. Which is what the 5x5 program is really all about, and by the looks of it same with max OT.

And to the people who have been saying it works, where are the pictures...and where are the pictures for the majority of people on this forum? It would be a hell of a lot more concrete for people who say this and that program work to post some pictures of themselves, wouldnt it?

I want to see some pictures of normal people who have been training for a good amount of time with some results for HST.

Here's one guy who did it with pictures.

http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/ectoBgone/

I did it and liked the results, I wasn't used to training in the 10-15 rep ranges and responded well for one run through.

[ErsiN]

I was try max ot. great powerbuilding training method (some mass building)