The "They are at war to protect my freedoms" crap is really bothering me this year.

[OatsandSteak]

Originally Posted by irishpitbull

When your religion tells you to kill non-believers... its kinda savage.

Lots of religious texts preach violence, ever read the OT?

I'm not condoning religious ideologies, I just doubt that most Muslims are homicidal maniacs. In fact I would put the homicidal ones in the minority, which means that most of the people that are dying are actually not tied to terrorism in any way.

[nutsy54]

Originally Posted by IraHays

Flying planes into a bulding did not take away my freedoms, directly.

I think the 3,000 people who lost their "Freedom" to drive home that evening would disagree with your perspective...


To the OP: If the fire department is ordered to extinguish a building that you would rather see burn down... Does that mean that their existence isn't still protecting you from other dangers? After all, only about 10% of our forces are actually in Iraq & Afghanistan at any given time...

[LordDarwin]

Originally Posted by adamlm

I am not so sure that people who think they are fighting for a god will stop anything until they either die off or succeed.

How about the fact that Al Qaeda who were supposedly responsible for 9/11:

1.) Had beef with the US because of their dealings in the Middle East, and getting involved in Middle Eastern affairs (i.e. Israel).
Therefore an invasion of Muslim Lands by a 'Christian Nation' is only going to exacerbate the resentment for the US, and raise a cause for their personal war.

2.) Al Qaeda was comprised of approximately 15 members at the time, and is now sited as being thousands strong engaged in firefights with the US's armed forces.

3.) How about the fact that for every innocent killed over there, the family will want revenge and join the Taliban to fight the US. Who shouldn't even be there in the first place....

----

What makes you think invading a country is going to stop terrorism... How about leaving the Middle East all together, which is why 9/11 happened to start with!

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by IraHays

I think he meant after WWII, "the past 60 years"??

If he did, I don't know what loss of freedoms he thinks the military has caused us.

[OatsandSteak]

Originally Posted by psamty

Even in that case, a politically incorrect but far less violent solution would be to simply ban the practice of Islam from the US, shut down all mosques and stop Muslim immigration.

If you think this is extreme, consider the following:
Estimates suggest that 600,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq, and 20,000 civilians have been killed in Afghanistan. This is not counting the injuries.

Even if you think the first solution is radical, killing half a million people is far worse. And whereas the first solution ensures that no more homegrown Islamic terror attacks will occur, the second increases the chance that Muslims in the US will be radicalized.

I think the Government needs to realize we don't have to be oversensitive, politically correct pussies all the time.

[OatsandSteak]

Originally Posted by nutsy54

I think the 3,000 people who lost their "Freedom" to drive home that evening would disagree with your perspective...


To the OP: If the fire department is ordered to extinguish a building that you would rather see burn down... Does that mean that their existence isn't still protecting you from other dangers?

My perspective on this situation, as I'm from Canada, is that I feel less safe having our armed forces in Afghanistan. Although we are predominately a peace keeping nation our role in Afghanistan isn't and I can imagine that resentment towards Canada would escalate the longer we stay there.

[adamlm]

Originally Posted by OatsandSteak

Are you talking about the States or Iraq?

You know exactly what i'm talking about, quit starting ****.

[irishpitbull]

Originally Posted by OatsandSteak

Lots of religious texts preach violence, ever read the OT?

I'm not condoning religious ideologies, I just doubt that most Muslims are homicidal maniacs. In fact I would put the homicidal ones in the minority, which means that most of the people that are dying are actually not tied to terrorism in any way.

I agree with you on this, but for the most part, the ones in charge, are maniacs. There is no way Iran, Hezbollah, Taliban will negotiate with the US. Are ideals are far to great. That hate our way of life. Until one side is crushed, there will be no lasting treaty.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by nutsy54

I think the 3,000 people who lost their "Freedom" to drive home that evening would disagree with your perspective...

^This.

You could ride the North Jersey Coastline train and come to the Middletown, NJ station to see all the abandoned and unclaimed cars in the parking lot. Middletown was one of the hardest hit towns in the area, being a short ride from the 'burbs of NJ to NYC. Their families also lost their freedom to give their loved ones a proper burial. Yeah, I'd say some freedoms were taken away.

[LordDarwin]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

I think I have to disagree there. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are like the mycellium of a fungus. Spread underground and very hard to root out. We haven't seen the last of them. And even if we do, there will be others to take their place.

Well first off the Taliban =/= Al Qaeda
Al Qaeda = International terrorism.
Taliban = Defending Afghanistan, and not interested in international terror. They only wan't Afganistan to themselves and foreign troops out.

---

Secondly, Al Qaeda's whole deal was that they didn't want the US on Middle Eastern soil getting involved in Middle Eastern Muslim affairs. Therefore invading two ME countries was not the answer and still isn't. If anything it's just created a breeding ground for potential terrorists and inspired a new wave of terrorist attacks around the world.

[Mtguy8787]

Originally Posted by IraHays

Facebook, radio, co-workers, that is all I'm hearing today.


Seriously, going into to Iraq and Afghanistan is not protecting my freedoms.


no negs please, I'm not antimilitary, just gets annoying.



Edit: oh, and happy veterans day. Any people on active duty in the war zone, please don't fight for "me", please fight to keep yourself and your fellow soldiers alive.

repped

[JUSA]

Agree with OP, on all counts. I totally support the military guys - so much I want to bring them home so they can be with their families and not get shot at...

[psamty]

Originally Posted by OatsandSteak

I think the Government needs to realize we don't have to be oversensitive, politically correct pussies all the time.

Exactly. And any way you look at it, killing people is far worse than simply banning a religion.

[IraHays]

Originally Posted by irishpitbull

I agree with you on this, but for the most part, the ones in charge, are maniacs. There is no way Iran, Hezbollah, Taliban will negotiate with the US. Are ideals are far to great. That hate our way of life. Until one side is crushed, there will be no lasting treaty.

Actually all three of them have offered to talk to the U.S.

"hate our way of life"??? lulz.

One side is crushed???? Iran, Hezbollah and the Taliban pose zero threat to the united states.

[GirthyCawk]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

Hitler's U boats off the coast of the US... his potential for a nuclear program... conquering Europe and Russia which would pretty much isolate the US... not to mention the Japanese Empire gobbling up the Pacific and Southeast Asia.

Yeah, no freedoms there.

here, try again

Originally Posted by GirthyCawk

I lol at people who think the military has had anything to do with protecting our freedoms any time in the past 60 years. If anything, they have helped reduce our freedoms, have spread a legacy violence, and have brought bloodshed to American soil.

*coast guard exempted

[irishpitbull]

Originally Posted by IraHays

Actually all three of them have offered to talk to the U.S.

"hate our way of life"??? lulz.

One side is crushed???? Iran, Hezbollah and the Taliban pose zero threat to the united states.

Please find link to their offers? Can not be Islamic website. Will rep...

[LordDarwin]

Originally Posted by IraHays

"hate our way of life"??? lulz.

^^^
Statements like this = FUUUUUUUUU...

It's like people are brainwashed into seeing everything black & white, good & evil. Like the Islamic terrorists are 2D cartoon characters out to get us "just because."

Newsfalsh Irishpitball, it ain't because they hate our way of life that they commit suicide attacks and fight teeth and claw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by LordDarwin

Well first off the Taliban =/= Al Qaeda

Al Qaeda = International terrorism.
Taliban = Defending Afghanistan, and not interested in international terror.

They were in bed together. The Taliban gave sanctuary to Al Qaeda.

Secondly, Al Qaeda's whole deal was that they didn't want the US on Middle Eastern soil getting involved in Middle Eastern, Muslim affairs.

Al Qaeda has no more right to supersede their government's invitations (right or wrong) for foreign troops on their soil any more than any American has the right to form a group to kick foreign investors out of the US or bomb Rockefeller Center when Mitsubishi bought it.

Therefore invading two ME countries was not the answer and still isn't. If anything it's just created a breeding ground for potential terrorists and inspired a new wave of terrorist attacks around the world.

Kicking the Taliban and by extension Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan = good.
Invading Iraq = not good.

Terrorists will always exist. They have existed since the Middle Ages; they have existed since the time of the Golden Horde; they have existed since Odoacer, and before him, the tribes the Romans constantly battled. It didn't start with us, and it won't end with us.

Let's all not be naive.

[GirthyCawk]

What do the people in this thread think the motivation of the 9/11 hijackers was? Do you think it's because they hated our way of life?

What reason do you have to believe that?

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by GirthyCawk

here, try again

Here try again...

What freedoms have you lost since 1949? In fact, you've gained freedoms.

[IraHays]

Originally Posted by irishpitbull

Please find link to their offers? Can not be Islamic website. Will rep...

Iran is easy, you can find that, I will look for Hezbollah and Taliban and get back tommorrow, getting close to quitting time...

[Grinners]

Dey hayte are whey of liife! Bush toldded me so!




Get your facts straight guys... THINK FOR YOURSELVES!

One country invaded and imposed their political system on another...

[OatsandSteak]

Originally Posted by adamlm

You know exactly what i'm talking about, quit starting ****.

Do not compute...

Originally Posted by irishpitbull

I agree with you on this, but for the most part, the ones in charge, are maniacs. There is no way Iran, Hezbollah, Taliban will negotiate with the US. Are ideals are far to great. That hate our way of life. Until one side is crushed, there will be no lasting treaty.

So do Mormons, yet they didn't blow up the Eiffel Tower. Most religious scripture and leaders condemn just about everything. Most of these condemnations are prevalent in Western civilization, they're prevalent in Europe, it's prevalent in lots of places, but they attacked the U.S., which seems odd to me that they would attack the U.S. because of morals but leave most other countries alone.

Originally Posted by psamty

Exactly. And any way you look at it, killing people is far worse than simply banning a religion.

We don't need to ban anything, we just need to say "hey, we aren't going to put up with your **** here, we have our own laws, if you don't abide by them, get the **** out".

[Moh7]

Originally Posted by gangwardgone

Racial profiling would have stopped 911. Serbia and other evil racist rednecks were telling you to racially profile muslims for years.

what would muslims prefer racial profiling or millions dead?

wtf are you talking about..

Age: 43

[OatsandSteak]

Originally Posted by Moh7

wtf are you talking about..

Age: 43

It makes sense, if you take out every word and replace it with a picture of a cat.

[Apeus]

Well, some people might give me crap for this, but I'm going to quote Ron Paul from Chapter 2 of The Revolution:

"To those who say that the attackers are motivated by a hatred of Western liberalism or the moral degeneracy of America culture, [Michael] Scheuer [CIA's former chief of CIA's Osama bin Laden Unit at the Counterterrorist Center] points out that Iran's Ayatolla Khomeini tried in vain for a decade to instigate an anti-Western jihad on exactly that basis. It went nowhere. Bin Laden's message, on the other hand, has been so attractive to so many people because it is fundamentally defensive. Bin Laden, says Scheuer, has 'spurned the Ayatollah's wholesome condemnation of Western society,' focusing instead on 'specific, bread-and-butter issues on which there is widespread agreement among Muslims.'

What bin Laden's sympathizers object to, as they have said again and again, is our government's propping up of unpopular regimes in the Middle East, the presence of American troops on the Arabian Peninsula, the American government's support for the activities of governments (like Russia) that are hostile to their Musim populations, and what they believe to be an American bias towards Israel. The point is not that we need to agree with these arguments, but that we need to be aware of them if we want to understand what is motivating so many people to rally to bin Laden's banner. Few people are moved to leave behind their wordly possession and their families to carry out violence on the behalf of disembodied ideology; it is practical grievances, perhaps combined with an underlying ideology, that motivate large numbers to action."

[LordDarwin]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

They were in bed together. The Taliban gave sanctuary to Al Qaeda.

Yes, but how many members of the Taliban knew they were giving them sanctuary, or even their plan of 9/11?
And even if they did know... What is this, kill and invade by proxy, just because they happened to allow them to stay in their country?

Originally Posted by Minotaur

Kicking the Taliban and by extension Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan = good.

Good, if America could have done it, and had a valid reason to do it... America had neither (in respect to removing the Taliban).

The people responsible for 9/11 could have been taken out with an air strike, no need for a full scale invasion of Afghanistan costing thousands of lives and creating a breeding ground for terrorism.

Originally Posted by Minotaur

Terrorists will always exist. They have existed since the Middle Ages; they have existed since the time of the Golden Horde; they have existed since Odoacer, and before him, the tribes the Romans constantly battled. It didn't start with us, and it won't end with us.

You're right, but invading Afghanistan had, and is having the opposite effect of defeating terrorism, it is only aiding their cause. No good can come from the invasion in that regard.

[Rambo26]

what about American's freedoms abroad? Oil companies included

[LaChupacabras]

Originally Posted by LordDarwin

/blowback...

One of the reasons for 9/11 was the US's involvement in the Middle East, and the placing of military bases on Muslim 'Holy lands.' So, instead of bombing and killing the 15 or so member of Al Quaeda responsible for the planning on 9/11, the US stages a full blown invasion of two countries... Both of which aren't even responsible for the attacks, and one not involved in the slightest (Iraq).



Invading Iraq and Afghanistan only increased terrorism, and will continue to do so until America and Britain withdraw.

This is the libertarian stance....uh oh.


Irony: Claiming "protecting our freedoms" all while enacting such legislation as the "Patriot Act"

[LordDarwin]

Originally Posted by LaChupacabras

This is the libertarian stance....uh oh.
Irony: Claiming "protecting our freedoms" all while enacting such legislation as the "Patriot Act"

I'm British, and it's not the Libertarian stance, it's the sensible stance if bloodshed is to be minimized.