ask a guy who studied in Orthodox Yeshivas for 5 weeks in Jerusalem anything

[nitr0x2]

Originally Posted by jackamo2887

Lookins boring and stupid..where the bitches and the booze at?

stay classy, Connecticut.

[zman155]

Originally Posted by Footballguru

i am not really a practicing jew, what is your 1st question exactly?

there are just too many issues where neither sides wants to budge on and both sides have at least somewhat legitimate argues for their positions. Palestinians want Jerusalem as their capital; this is not a demand Israel meet. Palestinians want refugees allowed back into ISRAEL (not a new Palestine). This too, Israel cannot meet for many practical reasons. I think the settlements can be resolved as long as Israel can keep its big ones, and compensate land in other areas that are inhabited by Arabs.

I think the biggest steps the Pals could make is if Israeli Arabs said they woudl want to immigrate to a newly founded Pal state. Obv, for life quality reasons, they probably wouldnt want to. So this too, cannot happen.

These are issues that go back a very long time and are both clouded by Religious beliefs which people generally do not want to budge on. There are also many practical problems for both sides. Transportation from Gaza- WB, israel's security if a Hamas wins an election in an actual gov't that produces arms, etc... so many issues guys. And people are SO dedicated and SO convinced and ignorant to any other viewpoints that they do not have rational debate, at all.

And to be honest, Israel is not in a bad spot right now. There is relative peace on both sides, so Israel is in no rush to get anything done. Their bigger problem is Iran.

Lol I am confused was this some sort of spirtitual retreat to learn about Judiasm? I guess my first question was why most Jews are "reformed" or not practicing (srs)

Could not agree with you more about the second point. People are so deep rooted in their beliefs and traditions that neither side will ever budge. I am a supporter of the Palestinians but believe they must be willing to comprimise on some issues although Israel needs to as well. Ideally it should be as follows (in my opinion)
You seem like a reasonable individual on the issue, what are your agreements/disagreements with my viewpoints presented below.

Another question, how are Israeli Arabs treated within Israel I mean are they in ghettos discriminated upon albeit it possibly subteley (like Blacks may be in the US?)

(Btw I am from Detroit as well, West Bloomfield represent)

If only it were this simple

Israel:
-Israel give up illegal settlements in West Bank
-Israel give East Jeresualem to Palestinians or have it been an International zone perhaps?
-Israel treat Arabs within Israel better and not give Jews the upper hand in most areas of life
-Dismantle West Bank Wall


Syria:
-Sign permanent peace deal with Israel and observe its right to exist in exchange for return of Golan Heights

Palestine:
-Acknowledge Israel's pre-1967 borders and allow people the right to return to Palestine but realize they cannot come back to Israel.
-Unify a moderate government without corruption of Fatah and the Rockets of Hamas


As you said before, too many complications to make peace. So many factors past Palestine vs. Israel

Fatah vs. Hamas could been just as troublesome of an issue to an agreement

Jereusalem another very hard one to budge on.

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by zman155

Lol I am confused was this some sort of spirtitual retreat to learn about Judiasm? I guess my first question was why most Jews are "reformed" or not practicing (srs)

The same reason must cultures are lost in America's melting pot. Its just assimilation. Also, I think people are becoming more and more agnostic/atheist in general. Lastly, a fundamentalist jewish life is really jewish. My analogy is that you make Judaism the entire pie, instead of merely having Judaism be a slice.

I assume we will start seeing more of it in Islam, as well. Most American Jews have been here for around 100 years, as our major immigration period was 1880-1920. Muslims have immigrated more recently. Unlike some whackjobs, I am not scared of Islam influence on American "values." I predict the exact opposite: that American values will diminish Islamic influence, just like the American values have done to every single people that have ever immigrated. Why? The core American values are superior to all else in regard to public life. IE separation of church and state, individual liberty, hard work = personal reward. My bigger concern is that american values are being changed through the political system starting to favor laziness and the like. But that is a discussion for another time.

Could not agree with you more about the second point. People are so deep rooted in their beliefs and traditions that neither side will ever budge. I am a supporter of the Palestinians but believe they must be willing to comprimise on some issues although Israel needs to as well. Ideally it should be as follows (in my opinion)
You seem like a reasonable individual on the issue, what are your agreements/disagreements with my viewpoints presented below.


Another question, how are Israeli Arabs treated within Israel I mean are they in ghettos discriminated upon albeit it possibly subteley (like Blacks may be in the US?)

Honestly I didnt see it badly at all, esp. in the north. People say this but I mean they are repped. in university, gov't, etc. One of my roomates at Hebrew univ. is an arab. In Jerusalem its worse than in other parts, but thats also because Jerusalem is just a really poor city compared to most of Israel.

(Btw I am from Detroit as well, West Bloomfield represent)

LOl u go to WB? WHat year? I went to Andover, class of 06, now a senior at MSU

If only it were this simple

Israel:
-Israel give up illegal settlements in West Bank
-Israel give East Jeresualem to Palestinians or have it been an International zone perhaps?
-Israel treat Arabs within Israel better and not give Jews the upper hand in most areas of life
-Dismantle West Bank Wall

Which settlements? Dont use the word illegal in a rational discussions FYI, only shows preconceived biases. Itd be like me calling WB Judea. But no chance Israel is going to give up its large settlements like Ariel where there are ~20k people. But Israel's counter to giving up any settlements is Gaza. When Israel pulled out of there, peace/gov't did NOT an ensue, but more violence, civil war, and immediate rocket attacks on civilians. That is just the facts of the outcome, the reasons why this happened are much more confusing and must be looked at closely, to make sure the same does not occur if Israel does indeed withdraw completely from the WB.

Syria:
-Sign permanent peace deal with Israel and observe its right to exist in exchange for return of Golan Heights

The last time Syria had the Golan, they would sit atop and snipe down at Israeli farmers. What is Israel to gain in this peace? They are the superior army, shouldnt Syria give them land or something in exchange for peace? Its akin to Mexico demanding Texas in exchange for peace with the US.

Palestine:
-Acknowledge Israel's pre-1967 borders and allow people the right to return to Palestine but realize they cannot come back to Israel.
-Unify a moderate government without corruption of Fatah and the Rockets of Hamas

THey are dead set on allowing refugees back into Israel. It would very difficult for a newly formed Palestine to absorb the supposed millions of refugees. And lol @ unifying ANY gov't in the entire world without corruption. Govt=corruption.
As you said before, too many complications to make peace. So many factors past Palestine vs. Israel

Fatah vs. Hamas could been just as troublesome of an issue to an agreement

Jereusalem another very hard one to budge on.

Yes this it the most difficult issue since it is based so much on religious convictions. As a Jew, all i continue to think about is how the Arabs did not let Jews go to the Western Wall when they had control. Now, where I was there, you see people from all religions and walks of life admirin or praying in front of the wall.

Obviously we are all biased and come with baggage from our background and cannot dismiss it in debates like this. The bottom line is that it is not for us in the US, where we have no concept of the conflict, to try and tell the Israelis or Pals what to do. Only they know what type of peace they can establish and maintain.

[squanto]

Originally Posted by Footballguru

My sypnosis: there will no real peace as the modern western world understands peace.

Interesting. Reps for content.

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by jackamo2887

Lookins boring and stupid..where the bitches and the booze at?

hai






and BALLIN on the yeshiva's back porch

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by squanto

Interesting. Reps for content.

please read above. I have to go to class, if your not satisfied I will try and answer better, later.

[Footballguru]

bump to first page, will be home now for an hour or two.

[jackamo2887]

Originally Posted by nitr0x2

stay classy, Connecticut.

We keep it real while keeping it real

[jnani]

Originally Posted by Footballguru

Which settlements? Dont use the word illegal in a rational discussions FYI, only shows preconceived biases.

"Which settlements"? The illegal settlements by Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, of course. Bias has nothing to do with it. What Israel is doing is a grave breach of IHL (one out of countless other ones), specifically article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention (to which Israel is a High Contracting Party, signed in 1949 and ratified in 1951) which states: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.".

But Israel's counter to giving up any settlements is Gaza. When Israel pulled out of there, peace/gov't did NOT an ensue, but more violence, civil war, and immediate rocket attacks on civilians.

When Israel pulled out the some 8000 Israeli settlers in Gaza (who were there illegally and mostly were relocated to the occupied West Bank, again, in violation of international law) during this so-called "disengagement", the occupation of Gaza never ended and is still ongoing. Read Disengaged Occupiers: The Legal Status of Gaza or go straight to the PDF here

How do you expect peace to ensue when the brutal occupation of Gaza is still a reality today and its population (more than half of them children, btw) are being terrorized and subjected to a vicious, continuing Israeli policy of collective punishment. A war crime in and of itself according to Article 33 of the GC.

And FYI, please educate yourself before making the above statements and telling others which words they can't use in these "rational discussions". Thanks.

[The Lone Wolf]

Is it possible for a Muslim to study in a Yeshiva ?

[Weightaholic]

Originally Posted by jnani

"Which settlements"? The illegal settlements by Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, of course. Bias has nothing to do with it. What Israel is doing is a grave breach of IHL (one out of countless other ones), specifically article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention (to which Israel is a High Contracting Party, signed in 1949 and ratified in 1951) which states: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.".

International human rights laws directly contradict many aspects of sharia law, so muslims can't rely on international rulings on anything like this without the commitment to abandon their barbarous laws, lest they appear more than slightly hypocritical.

Originally Posted by jnani

When Israel pulled out the some 8000 Israeli settlers in Gaza (who were there illegally and mostly were relocated to the occupied West Bank, again, in violation of international law) during this so-called "disengagement", the occupation of Gaza never ended and is still ongoing. Read Disengaged Occupiers: The Legal Status of Gaza or go straight to the PDF here

How do you expect peace to ensue when the brutal occupation of Gaza is still a reality today and its population (more than half of them children, btw) are being terrorized and subjected to a vicious, continuing Israeli policy of collective punishment. A war crime in and of itself according to Article 33 of the GC.

Hiding behind the skirts of women and children while launching attacks is also a war crime. Read up on it sometime. It'll make you appear smarter. Well, let's not aim at the moon first off. It might make you appear less dumb....

Originally Posted by jnani

And FYI, please educate yourself before making the above statements and telling others which words they can't use in these "rational discussions". Thanks.

Physician, heal thyself.

[jackfast1]

what, if anything, did they teach you about teh jesus?

[14kRPM]

What were your classmates like? Were there any schwartza?

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by jnani

"Which settlements"? The illegal settlements by Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, of course. Bias has nothing to do with it. What Israel is doing is a grave breach of IHL (one out of countless other ones), specifically article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention (to which Israel is a High Contracting Party, signed in 1949 and ratified in 1951) which states: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.".



When Israel pulled out the some 8000 Israeli settlers in Gaza (who were there illegally and mostly were relocated to the occupied West Bank, again, in violation of international law) during this so-called "disengagement", the occupation of Gaza never ended and is still ongoing. Read Disengaged Occupiers: The Legal Status of Gaza or go straight to the PDF here

How do you expect peace to ensue when the brutal occupation of Gaza is still a reality today and its population (more than half of them children, btw) are being terrorized and subjected to a vicious, continuing Israeli policy of collective punishment. A war crime in and of itself according to Article 33 of the GC.

And FYI, please educate yourself before making the above statements and telling others which words they can't use in these "rational discussions". Thanks.

Way to see both sides of the issue. Definitely a good way to develop a rational dialogue with the opposition.

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by The Lone Wolf

Is it possible for a Muslim to study in a Yeshiva ?

Not in the Yeshivas I stuided in. Perhaps more Liberal ones. Can a Jew study in a madrassah in Mecca?

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by jackfast1

what, if anything, did they teach you about teh jesus?

That he lived and was a real person.

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by 14kRPM

What were your classmates like? Were there any schwartza?

Classmates at first yeshiva were from all around the world and aged 22-28. One was an ex AAA Baseball player, one was from Hungray, most were in between undergrad and grad school.

2nd was much more diverse. Students ranged from 21-50+. About half of all students were married/lived outside the dorms. Alot of the younger ones were kinda crazy/dropouts, not as classy as the first Yeshiva. Some hippies and stuff lol. There were also some Shvartzas here.

[zman155]

Originally Posted by Footballguru

The same reason must cultures are lost in America's melting pot. Its just assimilation. Also, I think people are becoming more and more agnostic/atheist in general. Lastly, a fundamentalist jewish life is really jewish. My analogy is that you make Judaism the entire pie, instead of merely having Judaism be a slice.

I assume we will start seeing more of it in Islam, as well. Most American Jews have been here for around 100 years, as our major immigration period was 1880-1920. Muslims have immigrated more recently. Unlike some whackjobs, I am not scared of Islam influence on American "values." I predict the exact opposite: that American values will diminish Islamic influence, just like the American values have done to every single people that have ever immigrated. Why? The core American values are superior to all else in regard to public life. IE separation of church and state, individual liberty, hard work = personal reward. My bigger concern is that american values are being changed through the political system starting to favor laziness and the like. But that is a discussion for another time.



Honestly I didnt see it badly at all, esp. in the north. People say this but I mean they are repped. in university, gov't, etc. One of my roomates at Hebrew univ. is an arab. In Jerusalem its worse than in other parts, but thats also because Jerusalem is just a really poor city compared to most of Israel.



LOl u go to WB? WHat year? I went to Andover, class of 06, now a senior at MSU



Which settlements? Dont use the word illegal in a rational discussions FYI, only shows preconceived biases. Itd be like me calling WB Judea. But no chance Israel is going to give up its large settlements like Ariel where there are ~20k people. But Israel's counter to giving up any settlements is Gaza. When Israel pulled out of there, peace/gov't did NOT an ensue, but more violence, civil war, and immediate rocket attacks on civilians. That is just the facts of the outcome, the reasons why this happened are much more confusing and must be looked at closely, to make sure the same does not occur if Israel does indeed withdraw completely from the WB.



The last time Syria had the Golan, they would sit atop and snipe down at Israeli farmers. What is Israel to gain in this peace? They are the superior army, shouldnt Syria give them land or something in exchange for peace? Its akin to Mexico demanding Texas in exchange for peace with the US.



THey are dead set on allowing refugees back into Israel. It would very difficult for a newly formed Palestine to absorb the supposed millions of refugees. And lol @ unifying ANY gov't in the entire world without corruption. Govt=corruption.
As you said before, too many complications to make peace. So many factors past Palestine vs. Israel

Fatah vs. Hamas could been just as troublesome of an issue to an agreement


Yes this it the most difficult issue since it is based so much on religious convictions. As a Jew, all i continue to think about is how the Arabs did not let Jews go to the Western Wall when they had control. Now, where I was there, you see people from all religions and walks of life admirin or praying in front of the wall.

Obviously we are all biased and come with baggage from our background and cannot dismiss it in debates like this. The bottom line is that it is not for us in the US, where we have no concept of the conflict, to try and tell the Israelis or Pals what to do. Only they know what type of peace they can establish and maintain.

Great post repped sir.

When I read posts like yours, it makes me realize that not all Israelis are evil and wicked like some people try to play it out and how some people may tell others that all Palestinians are evil (even if subtley) all they all want to do is live their lives and smoke some hookah with chicks on the weekends for the lulz

I went to IA (in bloomfield hills) and I actually am a Junior at MSU go figure

Israel Fest on Monday was pretty fun braaah good seeing things from a different perspective

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by zman155

Great post repped sir.

When I read posts like yours, it makes me realize that not all Israelis are evil and wicked like some people try to play it out and how some people may tell others that all Palestinians are evil (even if subtley) all they all want to do is live their lives and smoke some hookah with chicks on the weekends for the lulz

I went to IA (in bloomfield hills) and I actually am a Junior at MSU go figure

Israel Fest on Monday was pretty fun braaah good seeing things from a different perspective

lol i was there too. Blown out of my mind, too bad the food kinda sucked. was real dry.

yea man, living in israel for 3 months made me realize that 99% of the population, jew and arab, just want to live life like we do here in the states. Have a stress free childhood, go to college and experiment/fk around, then get a job and family. Retire in a comfortable home and visit your grandkids. No one, or very few, on either side, WANT to kill/oppress the other side, they often just see it as the best way of getting to this desired way of life. Humans are not inherently evil, just selfish, and everyone tries to look out for what they think is their own best interests.

ALso, do you know Justin L*n*In

[BahadurShah]

Interesting thread/posts, repped. I agree with EOY that it sounds very similar to a madressa experience (my wife went to a girls madressa).

Originally Posted by psamty

I've always said that the reason Jews and Muslims are always fighting is precisely because both their religions are so similar. The negative aspects of the other's religion remind them of their own religion's negativities that they do not wish to admit, leading to a particularly visceral reaction.

I disagree with this. I don't think Muslims/Islam have a problem with Judaism and I don't think Jews/Judaism have a problem with Islam.

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by BahadurShah

Interesting thread/posts, repped. I agree with EOY that it sounds very similar to a madressa experience (my wife went to a girls madressa).




I disagree with this. I don't think Muslims/Islam have a problem with Judaism and I don't think Jews/Judaism have a problem with Islam.

yea. There is no reason the religions cant live side by side in peace, at least in theory. Jews lived in Muslim countries for centuries without serious problems, and Muslims in Israel today live without serious problems.

[psamty]

Originally Posted by Footballguru

yea man, living in israel for 3 months made me realize that 99% of the population, jew and arab, just want to live life like we do here in the states. Have a stress free childhood, go to college and experiment/fk around, then get a job and family. Retire in a comfortable home and visit your grandkids. No one, or very few, on either side, WANT to kill/oppress the other side, they often just see it as the best way of getting to this desired way of life. Humans are not inherently evil, just selfish, and everyone tries to look out for what they think is their own best interests.

Yes, exactly. Most people are motivated by their practical situation, not ideology. It is precisely those people who claim they have values, goals, and transcendent ideals that screw it up for everyone else. I am always suspicious of those who claim to have unselfish goals, those are usually the most messed up people. I am much more comfortable with people who have clear motivations and are self-centered. To be centered in yourself means that you will not be screwing up the lives of others.

Ever wonder why the majority of suicide bombers are unemployed, single males? Because they don't have their own lives to lead, they dedicate themselves to some greater "cause". Which usually has diabolical results.

Originally Posted by BahadurShah

I disagree with this. I don't think Muslims/Islam have a problem with Judaism and I don't think Jews/Judaism have a problem with Islam.

Yes, but Muslims do have a problem with Jews. And Jews do have a problem with Muslims. The more religious the Jew/Muslim, the more they have a problem with the other group.

[Blindead]

did you pound any yeshiva vagivha?

[balls2wall]

Originally Posted by psamty

Yes, but Muslims do have a problem with Jews. And Jews do have a problem with Muslims. The more religious the Jew/Muslim, the more they have a problem with the other group.

Again, I strongly disagree with this.

If anything with religious jews, the more religious they are, the less they are aware of outside religions and cultures, let alone give a damn about them.

Can not speak for muslims though.

[zman155]

Originally Posted by psamty

Yes, exactly. Most people are motivated by their practical situation, not ideology. It is precisely those people who claim they have values, goals, and transcendent ideals that screw it up for everyone else. I am always suspicious of those who claim to have unselfish goals, those are usually the most messed up people. I am much more comfortable with people who have clear motivations and are self-centered. To be centered in yourself means that you will not be screwing up the lives of others.

Ever wonder why the majority of suicide bombers are unemployed, single males? Because they don't have their own lives to lead, they dedicate themselves to some greater "cause". Which usually has diabolical results.

Great post. Cant help but agree with this.

[zman155]

Originally Posted by Footballguru

ALso, do you know Justin L*n*In

Hahah I do i will send you a PM

[Shreddersteve]

At a yeshiva do you guys delve into the Zohar or discuss the Cabbalah?

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by Blindead

did you pound any yeshiva vagivha?

naw dude lol. I was actually in israel 3 months and didnt tap at all. Only made out with 1 chick. That was the bad part of the vacation. Gotta go back and redeem myself

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by Shreddersteve

At a yeshiva do you guys delve into the Zohar or discuss the Cabbalah?

good question and takes us away from the unsolvable problem of peace in the middle east.

Not directly. Jews take these to be very advanced topics. For example, it would be like calculus without knowing your multiplication tables. Since I was a novice, I studied the fundamentals of Judaism, not the advanced topics. Still, often in lectures, the rabbi would say something like "we Learn in the Zohar that ..." or "it has been brought down through Kabblah that ..."

[Footballguru]

Originally Posted by balls2wall

Again, I strongly disagree with this.

If anything with religious jews, the more religious they are, the less they are aware of outside religions and cultures, let alone give a damn about them.

Can not speak for muslims though.

Historically, religious Jews could not give a **** what is going on in the society around them. They merely want the freedom to practice their religion as they see fit, without outside interference.