Many people -- theist and atheist alike -- have the habit of forming mental representations of God. You might call it an idol. And, consequently, they might accept or reject this idol which they have fabricated in their minds.
So this idol that is given the name "God" may be jealous, mean, malevolent, or whatever. The idol is usually created through a combination of a lack of true understanding of religious scripture, and one's own imaginings.
The point is, the created has dared define the Creator. The created, which is below the Creator, in this case fondly imagines that it can fully understand the Essence of the Creator, not realizing the implications of such. Can the chair a carpenter fashions even begin to fathom its creator, the carpenter? The answer is obvious. In the same way, we cannot begin to comprehend the Essence of God.
Unlike the chair, or even the animal, however, man can know about, and love, his Creator God, although such understanding is obviously very limited and does not mean that man can comprehend the Essence of God. What we can know about God is only by what His Manifestation (e.g., Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah) reveals to us via the Word of God.
Therefore, we are wise when we regard God as the "unknowable Essence" that He is; we are wise if we "kick the habit" of attempting to set limitations, either through thoughts or sayings, to our Limitless Creator; and we are wise to turn to His Manifestation, because only then can we know what God wills, and what His Teachings are; truly, there can exist no direct communication between God and man.
Indeed:
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The greatest bounties of God in this phenomenal world are His Manifestations. This is the greatest postulate. These Manifestations are the Suns of Reality. For it is through the Manifestation that the reality becomes known and established for man. History proves to us that apart from the influence of the Manifestations, man sinks back into his animal condition, using even his intellectual power to subserve an animal purpose. Therefore there is no cessation whatsoever in the future for the appearance of the Manifestation of God, because God is infinite and His purpose cannot be limited in any way. If we ever dare to limit and circumscribe God's purpose within any bounds, then of necessity we have dared to set limitations to the omnipotence of God. The created has dared to define his Creator!
Consequently, the perfect man ever beholds the rays of the Sun of Truth. The perfect man ever awaits and expects the coming of the effulgence of God, he ever ponders over the methods and purposes of God, knowing that of certainty the realities of the Divine are not finite, the Divine names and attributes are not finite. God's graces and bounties are without limit, and the coming of the Manifestations of God are not circumscribed by time.
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"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved."
--Baha'u'llah
www.bahai.us
Last edited by Bahai.Lifter; 11-09-2009 at 06:39 PM.
There is no way for me to be sure that, even if the scripture was written by the hand of God himself, the text was not manipulated in ways including removals additions and mistranslations.
I have seen god and it is female, atleast in essense. Overwhelming love, like a mother hold a child, but the child is all of creation.
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"Testosterone levels peak during a man's late 20's but decline soon after, decreasing about 1.5 percent per year after age 30. "
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - Buddha
There is no way for me to be sure that, even if the scripture was written by the hand of God himself, the text was not manipulated in ways including removals additions and mistranslations.
It's not very likely that God would have allowed the basic message of some of the most influential Books on mankind, e.g., the Bible and the Qur'an, to be distorted. I'm sure you're correct that there are translations which are a bit off, etc.; e.g., for the Bible, but the basic truths and teachings have remained. In fact, you can find many similar teachings in different holy books, signifying the oneness of the essential truths of all religions, one example being the golden rule found among the teachings of the great religions. However, to determine whether a book is indeed the Word of God, one needs to put in the time to unbiasedly investigate truth. God did give us the ability to discern truth from falsehood, we just need to develop this ability.
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"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved."
This is very ironic, because you are also attributing characteristics to God, by claiming he is omnipotent and unknowable.
Yes, we are limited in the sense that even words are tokens of God's creation, and thus cannot adequately describe Him nor do Him justice. However, words such as "omnipotent" and "unknowable" are used to emphasize His transcendence and supremacy over all created things.
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Originally Posted by Mr Bounce
In fact, by saying God is unknowable, you are ruling him out of any rational discussion. If we cannot 'know' something, how can we test and verify it?
We cannot know His Essence. However, we can know about things such as what His will for mankind in this age is, or what His Teachings are, by turning to the Manifestation of God (http://bahaikipedia.org/Manifestation_of_god).
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"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved."
When you refer to any entity as your "lord", you assume the position of an underling and inferior whose purpose in life is to serve. Is that what you want? To be an underling?
Millennium '73 was a free three-day festival held in November 1973 at the Astrodome in Houston, Texas, United States, by the Divine Light Mission (DLM). It featured Prem Rawat, then known as Guru Maharaj Ji, a 15-year-old guru and the leader of a fast-growing Western religious movement.[1] Organizers billed the festival as the most significant event in human history which would usher in a thousand years of peace.[2][3]
The festival's official schedule described the three evening addresses by Guru Maharaj Ji as the highlights of the event.[4] Big-band music, rock bands, religious songs, choral works, a dance performance and speeches by other DLM leaders filled the program from noon to 10 pm. Media events included press conferences and an impromptu debate.
Millennium '73 received wide publicity. Rennie Davis, a prominent anti-war activist and member of the Chicago Seven, helped draw attention to the event as a spokesman for the DLM. Notable journalists attended, some of them acquaintances of Davis from the New Left. It was later described by scholars and journalists as among the major events of 1973 and the 1970s, the high point of Guru Maharaj Ji's popularity, and the most important development in the American DLM's history.
Attendance was estimated from 10,000 to 35,000, compared to the projected 100,000. Scholars and journalists generally depicted the event as a disappointment. That, along with other factors including a large debt, led to changes in the DLM's structure, management and message. The following year the movement split into branches headed by Maharaj Ji in the West, and his mother and brother Bal Bhagwan Ji in India.
When you refer to any entity as your "lord", you assume the position of an underling and inferior whose purpose in life is to serve. Is that what you want? To be an underling?
That's exactly what he wants, to serve his master.
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"Being stupid or not isn't always determined by one's opinions but more often by how one reached their conclusions. Stupid is one of the few things humans are good at." ~ neonhypoxia
1st Prime of the Circle of Twelve
Proud member of the Δtheist Δlliance.
Unapologetic Δtheist - If you're stupid it's not my fault and I'm not sorry.
When you refer to any entity as your "lord", you assume the position of an underling and inferior whose purpose in life is to serve. Is that what you want? To be an underling?
If the purpose of life is to serve God, then I definitely want to serve Him; in other words, to carry out what I was created for. And yes, I want to be subservient to His will and command; in fact, I want my will to be His Will, because only He -- the Infallible, Divine Creator -- knows what is best for me. Indeed, He is more of a Friend to me than I am to myself.
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"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved."
If the purpose of life is to serve God, then I definitely want to serve Him; in other words, to carry out what I was created for. And yes, I want to be subservient to His will and command; in fact, I want my will to be His Will, because only He -- the Infallible, Divine Creator -- knows what is best for me. Indeed, He is more of a Friend to me than I am to myself.
If the purpose of life is to serve God, then I definitely want to serve Him; in other words, to carry out what I was created for. And yes, I want to be subservient to His will and command; in fact, I want my will to be His Will, because only He -- the Infallible, Divine Creator -- knows what is best for me. Indeed, He is more of a Friend to me than I am to myself.
Lol. Are you similarly subservient to your biological father and mother, who created YOU?
And imagine if your god had a mother and father of his/her/its own... do you imagine that your god treats them with similar reverence and awe? If your god has a god, that makes you a science project.
If you think about it, it's kind of like when a kid who wants to stay up all night and gets rowdy is told by his parents to go to bed. His parents know better, but the kid doesn't want to obey and go to bed, he wants to stay up all night and run around aimlessly in the house. But the job of the parent is to instruct his kid, so that the child does the right thing; and the parent loves his child, that is why he instructs him.
"We school you with the rod of wisdom and laws, like unto the father who educateth his son, and this for naught but the protection of your own selves and the elevation of your stations. By My life, were ye to discover what We have desired for you in revealing Our holy laws, ye would offer up your very souls for this sacred, this mighty, and most exalted Faith." [Baha'u'llah]
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"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved."
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"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved."
I wish god would work a miracle in everyones life so grand that there wasn't no doubt in your mind. if that's what it takes to get people saved, it would be worth it. i want you to know that even with all these questions and this and that, i still care about you guys.
If you think about it, it's kind of like when a kid who wants to stay up all night and gets rowdy is told by his parents to go to bed. His parents know better, but the kid doesn't want to obey and go to bed, he wants to stay up all night and run around aimlessly in the house. But the job of the parent is to instruct his kid, so that the child does the right thing; and the parent loves his child, that is why he instructs him.
"We school you with the rod of wisdom and laws, like unto the father who educateth his son, and this for naught but the protection of your own selves and the elevation of your stations. By My life, were ye to discover what We have desired for you in revealing Our holy laws, ye would offer up your very souls for this sacred, this mighty, and most exalted Faith." [Baha'u'llah]
You're assuming that "daddy always knows best". What if the son just wants to read a book but daddy--being a racist or political/religious fanatic-- doesn't agree with the ideas expressed in said book. Daddy COMMANDS the kid not to read said book, but I think you can I can agree that he's not justified just because he says so.
You make a logical mistake when you define God as unknowable and them turn around and ascribe various qualities to him.
Unknowable is the best description and all theological and philosophical discussion must unfortunately end there, simply because we are limited in our experiences and languages. Any word we use must pertain to some 'within universe' idea and we only have experiences of within universe concepts and objects, so logically we cant infer any qualities, comparisons or descriptions of anything beyond it, and God certainly would not be analogous to any species or genus from Earth.
If God exists, the conscious experience of such a thing would encompass so much more than just what we experience of the universe, as logically a being of this nature must have many orders of magnitude greater an amount of conscious experiences which comprise Gods ultimate existence. And these experiences would therefore have no way of imparting any information to us, with our somewhat limited faculties of sensory perception. Communication would be completely impossible, and any 'method' of experiencing God would be utterly impossible. (same way x rays and other wavelengths create no experiences for us-we lack any sensory capabilities for them.
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Bodybuilding is like Fight Club...I was on a plane the other day, I looked up and saw a guy get on the plane...big guy. I knew he lifted. I knew he ate oatmeal and egg whites for breakfast. He looked at me. He knew I lifted. He knew I had a protein shake before bed. We didnt say one word to each other,but I knew...and he knew. Now that's some cool, Fight Club type ****. Bodybuilding is the best thing since sliced bread...whole grain bread that is.
Yes, we are limited in the sense that even words are tokens of God's creation, and thus cannot adequately describe Him nor do Him justice. However, words such as "omnipotent" and "unknowable" are used to emphasize His transcendence and supremacy over all created things.
We cannot know His Essence. However, we can know about things such as what His will for mankind in this age is, or what His Teachings are, by turning to the Manifestation of God (http://bahaikipedia.org/Manifestation_of_god).
My point is simply that you cannot define something as unknowable, then turn around and speak of it as if you know about it.
If you can say that your God is transcendant and supreme because of what you have seen, then surely one is on just as equal footing if they were to (for example) read the OT and observe other, less pleasant characteristics.
If you say he is unknowable, or metaphysical, or supernatural, then logically he may as well not exist as far as humans and our limited faculties are concerned.
Claim God is unknowable, then presuppose his existence based on his unknowability!
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Bodybuilding is like Fight Club...I was on a plane the other day, I looked up and saw a guy get on the plane...big guy. I knew he lifted. I knew he ate oatmeal and egg whites for breakfast. He looked at me. He knew I lifted. He knew I had a protein shake before bed. We didnt say one word to each other,but I knew...and he knew. Now that's some cool, Fight Club type ****. Bodybuilding is the best thing since sliced bread...whole grain bread that is.
My point is simply that you cannot define something as unknowable, then turn around and speak of it as if you know about it.
If you can say that your God is transcendant and supreme because of what you have seen, then surely one is on just as equal footing if they were to (for example) read the OT and observe other, less pleasant characteristics.
If you say he is unknowable, or metaphysical, or supernatural, then logically he may as well not exist as far as humans and our limited faculties are concerned.
This, if god exists god is irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by ColdSpire
Why did God spread his word to white people before asians and blacks? Is he racist?
Well if you are talking about jesus then he shared his religion to the middle east dudes first, but why not he is misogynist and a homophobe.
"I train to get stronger, I eat to get bigger" Heavy_beats
"I derive so much enjoyment out of lifting that I can't imagine anything better." PeonLover
"Pretty soon, powerlifting may not even require any power or lifting." Bud Lyte
You're assuming that "daddy always knows best". What if the son just wants to read a book but daddy--being a racist or political/religious fanatic-- doesn't agree with the ideas expressed in said book. Daddy COMMANDS the kid not to read said book, but I think you can I can agree that he's not justified just because he says so.
If daddy is Infallible and the Source of all perfections, is the other scenario, of course.
Therefore, the command is infallible and perfect, and thus the best thing for us, in the case of our Heavenly Father.
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"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved."
My point is simply that you cannot define something as unknowable, then turn around and speak of it as if you know about it.
I have added that I can only know what the Manifestation of God reveals, and this is what I'm sharing. That God is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise, for example, is pretty obvious, as the Books of God point to that.
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Originally Posted by Mr Bounce
If you say he is unknowable, or metaphysical, or supernatural, then logically he may as well not exist as far as humans and our limited faculties are concerned.
We can't know His Essence, thus He is an "unknowable Essence"; we can, however, know whatever He reveals about Himself through His Manifestation.
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"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved."
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"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved."
If daddy is Infallible and the Source of all perfections, is the other scenario, of course.
Therefore, the command is infallible and perfect, and thus the best thing for us, in the case of our Heavenly Father.
The problem is, how do you KNOW that "daddy" is infallible?
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"If we are going to teach creation science as an alternative to evolution, then we should also teach the stork theory as an alternative to biological reproduction." -Judith Hayes
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