Theists - a hypothetical question for you

shadowwalker021 · 11-09-2009, 10:49 AM

First, for the purpose of this hypothetical situation I want you to assume that there is no god.

Okay so in this hypothetical universe there is no god who can give you actual spiritual experience if you give complete faith to it/him/her.

Now suppose that in this universe of which there is no god, humans surrender their empirical logic and reason, and offer their complete and utter faith to an imaginary god - because that is in fact what faith is; faith is a belief in something without, and even in the face of empirical (sensory) evidence.

So in offering their complete faith in hopes of attaining spiritual enlightenment, they inadvertently surrender their logical mind (at least in regards to anything to do with god).
not only this, but their mind is now completely susceptible only to this baseless belief of which they placed their complete faith in.

So the question: do you think these humans would experience those things that are in accordance with their faith solely because of their absolute faith even if there is not actually a god giving them that warm feeling?

this is directed mainly at born again christians, or those who actively try to achieve a more absolute form of faith as if faith is something desirable.

Barry Bonds · 11-09-2009, 01:34 PM

your definition of "faith" disagree's with Webster.

There are several definitions of faith, and none of them have "even in the face of empirical evidence" in them.

1. An allegiance to a duty or person.
2. belief and trust in and loyalty to God.
3. Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

As far as the definition relates to Christians, a better understanding would be, "The Christian Faith is founded on Jesus Christ and His resurrection."

No one who accepts Christ comes to Christianity with "baseless" anything. You don't just wake up one day and say "I believe everything Christians believe."

There's a life changing experience there, or there's no true conversion to Christianity. With the evidence of that change in you personally-changes that you realize in no way shape or form came from inside you, but something much greater than you-you take that experience and decide whether or not you will take the things that God has promised yet to come on faith.

I accepted Christ 18 years ago. When I did, I read promises God/Jesus made over 2000 years ago in the Bible that were made to those who accept Christ.

In these 18 years, not one of the promises have been broken. So I have 18 years of positive reinforcement that God's word is true.

I take those 18 years of experience in fulfilled promises made to me and make a rational decision based on that experience that the promises made in the Bible not yet fulfilled will be true as well.

That's how I make my decisions.

JakeA · 11-09-2009, 01:40 PM

didn't read

LordDarwin · 11-09-2009, 01:43 PM

OP, I have to warn you. 90% of Theists on this forum do not hold the mental capacity to even imagine that hypothetically their god didn't exist. It's, for the majority like asking a frog to do mathematics... They just can't do it.

I couldn't count the number of times I've seen theists squirm as even the thought of thinking in a different frame of mind for a few seconds... It's thought crime for them, because the big brother's watching!

shadowwalker021 · 11-09-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Bonds

your definition of "faith" disagree's with Webster.

There are several definitions of faith, and none of them have "even in the face of empirical evidence" in them.

1. An allegiance to a duty or person.
2. belief and trust in and loyalty to God.
3. Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

even in the face of empirical evidence:

people believe that dinosaur bones were planted by god to test their faith.

people believe that the similarities of religions that preceded christianity aren't an indication that christianity plagiarized those religions, but that the devil went back in time and made those religions to trick christians.

christians who boast an "unshakable" or "unfaltering" faith, and are praised for it.

i could go on, but i think you get my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Bonds

As far as the definition relates to Christians, a better understanding would be, "The Christian Faith is founded on Jesus Christ and His resurrection."

No one who accepts Christ comes to Christianity with "baseless" anything. You don't just wake up one day and say "I believe everything Christians believe."

the belief needs to be empirically baseless or else it wouldn't be faith. you cannot have both. the only proof of your god that you can lay homage to is your personal, supernatural experience with god which is exactly what i was arguing against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Bonds

There's a life changing experience there, or there's no true conversion to Christianity. With the evidence of that change in you personally-changes that you realize in no way shape or form came from inside you, but something much greater than you-you take that experience and decide whether or not you will take the things that God has promised yet to come on faith.

I accepted Christ 18 years ago. When I did, I read promises God/Jesus made over 2000 years ago in the Bible that were made to those who accept Christ.

In these 18 years, not one of the promises have been broken. So I have 18 years of positive reinforcement that God's word is true.

I take those 18 years of experience in fulfilled promises made to me and make a rational decision based on that experience that the promises made in the Bible not yet fulfilled will be true as well.

That's how I make my decisions.

yes, exactly. of course you have your personal experiences - but does that prove god? or does it just prove that thinking positively with a focused, goal-oriented mindset will improve your life? does it prove that there is an supernatural god who loves you, or does it prove that absolute faith and the willingness to let go of normal logic and preconceptions make the mind susceptible to any belief, and thus a self-fulfilling prophecy unfolds?

shadowwalker021 · 11-09-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeA

didn't read

you scared bro? i used to be scared too. when i was a little kid sometimes the thought that god didn't exist would creep into my mind and instantly i would feel horrible, ashamed, and absolutely terrified. i would literally think that the devil pushed the thought into my head, and i would cry and get down on my knees and pray to god for forgiveness for even pondering on his existence. i know how you feel. (unless you're illiterate?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordDarwin

OP, I have to warn you. 90% of Theists on this forum do not hold the mental capacity to even imagine that hypothetically their god didn't exist. It's, for the majority like asking a frog to do mathematics... They just can't do it.

I couldn't count the number of times I've seen theists squirm as even the thought of thinking in a different frame of mind for a few seconds... It's thought crime for them, because the big brother's watching!

na man, i can empathize with them. i know how they feel. religion and the prospect of eternal torture is a very terrifying concept.

Queequeg · 11-09-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Bonds

In these 18 years, not one of the promises have been broken. So I have 18 years of positive reinforcement that God's word is true.

I take those 18 years of experience in fulfilled promises made to me and make a rational decision based on that experience that the promises made in the Bible not yet fulfilled will be true as well.

That's how I make my decisions.

What I would say to you is if someone experiences the reverse then can you blame them for not believing?

Barry Bonds · 11-09-2009, 04:28 PM

a true conversion (which is pretty much the recognized one) and found the scriptures relating to God's promises to the Christian untrue as far as when taken as intended by the author and not cherry picked, I'd have to say it would be my first in my 51 years.

FYI-"I was raised in a Christian home", "My parents took me to church every Sunday", "I said a prayer and nothing happened", don't equal true conversion.

In closing I'd also like to tell you that while I don't pretend to know the ratio, whether when they die, or the rapture comes and they are left behind, there will be a lot of "church folks" that call themselves "Christians" that will be very unhappily surprised.

x_aDrenaLine_x · 11-09-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowwalker021

So the question: do you think these humans would experience those things that are in accordance with their faith solely because of their absolute faith even if there is not actually a god giving them that warm feeling?.

Well if these people say they experience things that are supernatural in the name of God, then I would assume that they would also believe in a God because of that reason. So I would not find it illogical for those that have this subjective proof in their lives to believe in a God. In the same way, I have faith that God exists along with my own personal experience. My life, and it's experiences, is proof enough for me and I MYSELF can determine whether or not God exists based off of that. I don't need other people telling me anything because I can't necessarily take everyone's word for it, whether it has to do with existence or non-existence of God. Most atheists believe that a majority of Christians believe in God just because they were told to by their parents. This is not the case because those that truly believe and give their all to God, do so because they have proof of Him in their own life. In the same way, I don't encourage anyone to be brainwashed into believing in God or lack thereof. Instead, I encourage them to look beyond their computer screen, go out into the world and seek with a humble, and a skeptical but not OVERLY skeptical mind.

CerealKiller · 11-09-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowwalker021

So the question: do you think these humans would experience those things that are in accordance with their faith solely because of their absolute faith even if there is not actually a god giving them that warm feeling?

What things? Peace and contentment? Love?

These things are mental constructs generated in the brain. You don't need a belief in God to experience these things.