Some of you may remember I posted a few months ago asking for help with my horrible form on pretty much all my lifts. Well I've been working on it the last few months and I think I've got my bench, squat and row pretty good now. I'm still having trouble with deadlifts, though.
I'm getting some pain in my lower back after DLs, and it's not DOMS kind of pain. It's in the lower right hand side of my back, just beside my spine, and when it's really bad it will work it's way around my hip to my right quad. It's only after DLs and it will go away in a few days, but it makes me think I'm screwing up somewhere. PRetty sure it's not supposed to feel this way.
I know I've got some back rounding on the higher weights but I wouldn't have thought it would be bad enough to cause this, but I need some other eyes looking at this.
So my basic question is this...Am I doing something wrong regarding form, or do I just need to do lower weights? MY squat is sitting around 215-220 for a 5rm right now, and it seems like I should be able to do more weight but maybe not?
you're staying down too long between reps, you shouldn't let all the weight rest on the floor, in fact it shouldn't touch the floor, you should maintain your grip from the begining till the end of the session and not adjust when you're down, otherwise either your forearms are not strong enough or you're lifting too heavy.
check out my deadlift progress http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/ac...gress#deadlift
i've been progressing pretty well just doing deadlifts 5x5 once a week, i do it first thing on my back day, warm up 20x2 reps light weight, so far so good, no pain whatsoever, i don't wear a belt.
get a Captains of Crunch for your forearms, it will help alot, at the moment i can easily add about 10lb to my current max but i can't keep a grip on it.
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you're staying down too long between reps, you shouldn't let all the weight rest on the floor, in fact it shouldn't touch the floor, you should maintain your grip from the begining till the end of the session and not adjust when you're down, otherwise either your forearms are not strong enough or you're lifting too heavy.
check out my deadlift progress http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/ac...gress#deadlift
i've been progressing pretty well just doing deadlifts 5x5 once a week, i do it first thing on my back day, warm up 20x2 reps light weight, so far so good, no pain whatsoever, i don't wear a belt.
get a Captains of Crunch for your forearms, it will help alot, at the moment i can easily add about 10lb to my current max but i can't keep a grip on it.
dont listen to this imo.
for your form: you keep your thoracic spine extended but your lumbar spine looks pretty rounded. I cant pinpoint an exact problem but you should start a dilligent stretching routine.
you'll want to stretch the following for this.
hamstrings
hip flexors
tightness in these muscles can cause lower back rounding.
what i do is static stretch everyday and do dynamic warmups before a workout to ensure i can get in the proper position to pull/squat. (btw if you have this rounding problem on deadlifts, does it not bother you on squats?)
for my static stretchin like warrior lunge stretch and the general touch your toes with knees locked hamstring stretch.
oh and it looks like you also do not know how to get your lumbar in proper extension at all, try the following.
lay on the ground o your stomach. now lift your chest off the ground and your legs, you should feel your lower back contract an struggle to stay in this "superman" position, now try to get that same feeling when you pull.
(for a lol lumbar tightness que by rippetoe: try to drop your dick in between your knees)
for now, i think it's a bad idea to lift heavy because your form can cause injury imo.
Last edited by theflyingdutch; 11-08-2009 at 06:21 AM.
you're staying down too long between reps, you shouldn't let all the weight rest on the floor, in fact it shouldn't touch the floor, you should maintain your grip from the begining till the end of the session and not adjust when you're down, otherwise either your forearms are not strong enough or you're lifting too heavy.
you're staying down too long between reps, you shouldn't let all the weight rest on the floor, in fact it shouldn't touch the floor, you should maintain your grip from the begining till the end of the session and not adjust when you're down, otherwise either your forearms are not strong enough or you're lifting too heavy.
check out my deadlift progress http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/ac...gress#deadlift
i've been progressing pretty well just doing deadlifts 5x5 once a week, i do it first thing on my back day, warm up 20x2 reps light weight, so far so good, no pain whatsoever, i don't wear a belt.
get a Captains of Crunch for your forearms, it will help alot, at the moment i can easily add about 10lb to my current max but i can't keep a grip on it.
he isn't trying to do a romanian/stiff-leg dead...
you're staying down too long between reps, you shouldn't let all the weight rest on the floor, in fact it shouldn't touch the floor, you should maintain your grip from the begining till the end of the session and not adjust when you're down, otherwise either your forearms are not strong enough or you're lifting too heavy.
check out my deadlift progress http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/ac...gress#deadlift
i've been progressing pretty well just doing deadlifts 5x5 once a week, i do it first thing on my back day, warm up 20x2 reps light weight, so far so good, no pain whatsoever, i don't wear a belt.
get a Captains of Crunch for your forearms, it will help alot, at the moment i can easily add about 10lb to my current max but i can't keep a grip on it.
Op, it looks like your start position is wrong. Start the lift with your hips further down. Your lower back is rounded at the bottom position of the lift. If your back is at a natural arch at the beginning of the lift you will have to keep your hips lower, so that will kill two birds with one stone.
__________________
Repay no evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. - Romans 12:17
you're staying down too long between reps, you shouldn't let all the weight rest on the floor, in fact it shouldn't touch the floor, you should maintain your grip from the begining till the end of the session and not adjust when you're down, otherwise either your forearms are not strong enough or you're lifting too heavy.
check out my deadlift progress http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/ac...gress#deadlift
i've been progressing pretty well just doing deadlifts 5x5 once a week, i do it first thing on my back day, warm up 20x2 reps light weight, so far so good, no pain whatsoever, i don't wear a belt.
get a Captains of Crunch for your forearms, it will help alot, at the moment i can easily add about 10lb to my current max but i can't keep a grip on it.
Hmmm...I don't think so, man. Doing touch n' go reps without getting my form down would be a pretty bad idea, I think. As for my grip...that hasn't even become an issue yet. I do a fair amount of grip work right now and I have no trouble holding the light weights that I DL in a double overhand. Thanks for the response, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflyingdutch
dont listen to this imo.
for your form: you keep your thoracic spine extended but your lumbar spine looks pretty rounded. I cant pinpoint an exact problem but you should start a dilligent stretching routine.
you'll want to stretch the following for this.
hamstrings
hip flexors
tightness in these muscles can cause lower back rounding.
what i do is static stretch everyday and do dynamic warmups before a workout to ensure i can get in the proper position to pull/squat. (btw if you have this rounding problem on deadlifts, does it not bother you on squats?)
for my static stretchin like warrior lunge stretch and the general touch your toes with knees locked hamstring stretch.
oh and it looks like you also do not know how to get your lumbar in proper extension at all, try the following.
lay on the ground o your stomach. now lift your chest off the ground and your legs, you should feel your lower back contract an struggle to stay in this "superman" position, now try to get that same feeling when you pull.
(for a lol lumbar tightness que by rippetoe: try to drop your dick in between your knees)
for now, i think it's a bad idea to lift heavy because your form can cause injury imo.
I do have flexibility issues for sure, and I've been working on them. It doesn't seem to be a problem with squats. As far as I can tell my squat form is pretty decent, and I don't get any pain (other than normal DOMS) afterwards. I can post a vid of a couple of sets if you want.
I know what you're saying about my lumbar, but I can't seem to extend it in that position. I'm trying to follow Rippetoe's steps for getting into the proper position: Start with the bar directly over the middle of the foot, grasp the bar without bending the knees, bend the knees until the shin touches the bar, pull chest up and pull. I follow these steps but you're right, I can't seem to extend my lower back, even I easily can while standing for a proper squat. Is that just a result of poor flexibility, do you think? Thanks for the help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19george
Op, it looks like your start position is wrong. Start the lift with your hips further down. Your lower back is rounded at the bottom position of the lift. If your back is at a natural arch at the beginning of the lift you will have to keep your hips lower, so that will kill two birds with one stone.
Thanks for the help, man. I see what you're saying and I agree. It feels like my butt is too high. Like I said, I'm trying to follow Rippetoe's steps but he specifically says "Don't drop your butt. Raise your chest." So is there something I'm missing here, or maybe there's just a better way to set up for the lift?
Thanks for the help, man. I see what you're saying and I agree. It feels like my butt is too high. Like I said, I'm trying to follow Rippetoe's steps but he specifically says "Don't drop your butt. Raise your chest." So is there something I'm missing here, or maybe there's just a better way to set up for the lift?
If the bar stays in place, I don't see how you can raise your chest without lowering your hips.
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Repay no evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. - Romans 12:17
If the bar stays in place, I don't see how you can raise your chest without lowering your hips.
I don't know, I can't answer that, and maybe that's where my problem is coming in, But he specifically says "do not lower your butt" in the Starting Strength DVD. I'm very confused.
Rip's chest up cue is working on the assumption that you have slack in your upper back, with your hips already in place from the starting position.
The way I've always setup (having learned from SS etc) is to stick my feet under the bar about midway on my laces, take my grip, then bend my knees forward and lower my hips until my shins are touching the bar.
That's when you raise your chest up and straighten both your lumbar and thoracic back without dropping your hips further from your original setup.
His point as I understand it is to get the leverage perfect for your anthropometry without introducing further slack in to the system prior to the lift, i.e by dropping your hips and forcing your back out of optimal position. You see this pretty regularly on here when the experienced guys say stuff like "you stiff legged it". If you are dropping your hips further prior to the lift, you are essentially just giving yourself extra ROM without moving the weight and actually starting the pull in a poorer position.
-edit- have just re-read and rewatched your vids, you're doing it almost exactly as he describes, with the exception of your lumber spine as you and the other guys have mentioned - in your case, I'd say just practice putting your lower back in the correct position (which will involve lowering your hips and sticking your ass out a little further anyway) and keep everything else the same.
Rip's chest up cue is working on the assumption that you have slack in your upper back, with your hips already in place from the starting position.
The way I've always setup (having learned from SS etc) is to stick my feet under the bar about midway on my laces, take my grip, then bend my knees forward and lower my hips until my shins are touching the bar.
That's when you raise your chest up and straighten both your lumbar and thoracic back without dropping your hips further from your original setup.
His point as I understand it is to get the leverage perfect for your anthropometry without introducing further slack in to the system prior to the lift, i.e by dropping your hips and forcing your back out of optimal position. You see this pretty regularly on here when the experienced guys say stuff like "you stiff legged it". If you are dropping your hips further prior to the lift, you are essentially just giving yourself extra ROM without moving the weight and actually starting the pull in a poorer position.
-edit- have just re-read and rewatched your vids, you're doing it almost exactly as he describes, with the exception of your lumber spine as you and the other guys have mentioned - in your case, I'd say just practice putting your lower back in the correct position (which will involve lowering your hips and sticking your ass out a little further anyway) and keep everything else the same.
Okay, thanks. I thought I was following his instructions pretty closely but it's so hard to tell without someone there to spot what you're doing wrong. I try as you suggest and lower my hips/butt further and really try to push the lumbar arch. I'll DL again on Wednesday and I'll get some more vids then. Thank you for the help.
No worries - try not to think of dropping your hips more, your setup is good - just they will drop (and tilt) a little when you get a better lumbar position.
Well I deadlifted on Wednesday, and really tried to arch my lower back but I didn't really do much better than before. It must've been somewhat better because my lower back doesn't hurt today, but looking at the vids, it's still looks rounded.
I'm guessing it's a flexibility issue because it was incredibly hard to even attempt to arch my lumbar spine. It also made the lifts much more difficult as well. I stayed very low with the weight, only going up to a double at 205 and I was exhausted, not from lifting the weight but from trying so hard to get my back into position. I'm not quite sure how to tackle this problem.
For some reason, youtube doesn't like my 205 vid but here's the 185:
Your hips look WAY too high there. You are really putting yourself at a disadvantage there. You are basically only using back to get the weight up. Remember that your hip/back position is largely determined by your body structure.
Here's a good video on starting position. Notice that even the guy with a short torso starts at a back position that is more vertical than yours.
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Repay no evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. - Romans 12:17
Your hips look WAY too high there. You are really putting yourself at a disadvantage there. You are basically only using back to get the weight up. Remember that your hip/back position is largely determined by your body structure.
Here's a good video on starting position. Notice that even the guy with a short torso starts at a back position that is more vertical than yours.
I see exactly what you mean, and I'm more confused than ever. I've been looking for the starting strength DVD on youtube, because no one's back angle looks that vertical on the DVD. They're all much closer to parallel with the ground. But he doesn't even have them set up the same way in that video.
I'd give my left nut for a good strength training coach...And to be able to afford one, for that matter.
Well, I'll try to do some light deads either tonight or tomorrow and get some vids. I'll keep working on it.
Here's an idea. Get your camera and record from a side angle. Do some deadlifts, but start the pull with your hips purposefully too low. I mean really low. You won't be able to lift the weight in your starting position. Because of this your hips will naturally rise first (before the weight gets more than an inch off the ground) and your body will move itself into the correct pulling position. Watch the video and notice what your back position will be like when the weight starts to move. This will be very close to what your correct starting position should be.
Also, don't be too hung up on your form so long as it is not so disgusting that it will cause injury (and its really not that bad, just not very efficient). Lift weights and have fun man. The longer you do this the more you will learn. Slower, perhaps, than someone who has access to a great coach, but not too many of us do. We just have to make do.
__________________
Repay no evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. - Romans 12:17
That's a great idea. Like George said, don't stress out about it too much - nothing you've filmed and posted has been anywhere near the horrorshow videos you get on youtube or crossfit.
Since you're obviously doing SS per Rip's guidelines and techniques for setup etc, maybe it's worth posting your vids over on his Q&A - he's does post an awful lot and it's helped me with a lot of stuff just reading his critiques on people's form etc.
Plus, the dude is funnier than that time you trapped your gf's head under the covers and farted. We've all done it.
Here's an idea. Get your camera and record from a side angle. Do some deadlifts, but start the pull with your hips purposefully too low. I mean really low. You won't be able to lift the weight in your starting position. Because of this your hips will naturally rise first (before the weight gets more than an inch off the ground) and your body will move itself into the correct pulling position. Watch the video and notice what your back position will be like when the weight starts to move. This will be very close to what your correct starting position should be.
Also, don't be too hung up on your form so long as it is not so disgusting that it will cause injury (and its really not that bad, just not very efficient). Lift weights and have fun man. The longer you do this the more you will learn. Slower, perhaps, than someone who has access to a great coach, but not too many of us do. We just have to make do.
Thanks, man. That's a really good idea, I'll do that. Very much appreciated.
I know what you're saying about not getting hung up on form, but this is something I discovered I had issues with a few months ago, and have been struggling with since. And I'm afraid that I am doing myself harm given the back pain I've been having after DLs.
See below for a vid of what I was like a few months ago (before realizing how badly I was doing EVERYTHING).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluster
That's a great idea. Like George said, don't stress out about it too much - nothing you've filmed and posted has been anywhere near the horrorshow videos you get on youtube or crossfit.
Since you're obviously doing SS per Rip's guidelines and techniques for setup etc, maybe it's worth posting your vids over on his Q&A - he's does post an awful lot and it's helped me with a lot of stuff just reading his critiques on people's form etc.
Plus, the dude is funnier than that time you trapped your gf's head under the covers and farted. We've all done it.
That's a good idea too, thanks. I'm actuallydoing MAdcows 5x5 right now. Though it's unbelievable given my deadlift numbers, I've actually been lifting for about a year. Unfortunately, most of it was REALLY badly. I was one of those horrorshows until I recorded a couple of my workouts back in July and realized just how bad it was. I got a lot of help from some of the great people on here and I've gotten a decent squat and bench out of it, but DL has been my problem child.
Here's a vid of me in July 325x5
Yes it was THAT bad. I reset all of my weights and have been working upwards since then. Just haven't got the DL mechanics down.
Op, it looks like your start position is wrong. Start the lift with your hips further down. Your lower back is rounded at the bottom position of the lift. If your back is at a natural arch at the beginning of the lift you will have to keep your hips lower, so that will kill two birds with one stone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19george
Here's an idea. Get your camera and record from a side angle. Do some deadlifts, but start the pull with your hips purposefully too low. I mean really low. You won't be able to lift the weight in your starting position. Because of this your hips will naturally rise first (before the weight gets more than an inch off the ground) and your body will move itself into the correct pulling position. Watch the video and notice what your back position will be like when the weight starts to move. This will be very close to what your correct starting position should be.
Also, don't be too hung up on your form so long as it is not so disgusting that it will cause injury (and its really not that bad, just not very efficient). Lift weights and have fun man. The longer you do this the more you will learn. Slower, perhaps, than someone who has access to a great coach, but not too many of us do. We just have to make do.
So I followed everyone's advice and took some more vids (both from the side and back), and even tried DLing sumo style on another forum member's recommendation. Didn't seem to help. You guys are right, I'm starting the lift with my lower back rounded, and of course, adding weight causes it to round further. I finally took a vid with my shirt off so I could watch exactly when my lowe rback begins to round and found that I could barely squat down at all without my lumbar rounding.
I can only assume that this is a flexibility problem, maybe with my hamstrings? I don't know. I really don't know how to go about fixing this. I've been doing hip and ham mobility exercises for awhile now, and evidently it's not helping.
I've been running the 5x5 and all my other lifts are going up. I can't put everyhting else on hold to try to fix my deadlift but I can't let my deadlift be less than my bench (which it is right now).
I really really want a good deadlift, but at this point I'm stumped.
If you can't even setup correctly it does sound like it's a flexibility thing. Maybe try RDLs to negate the setup issues and work on your hamstrings and flexibility. Hypers and some additional stretching would help too I'd imagine.
-edit- How's your squat? If hamstrings are an issue for the dl setup, then I can't imagine you're getting good depth without some pretty serious buttwinking?
If you can't even setup correctly it does sound like it's a flexibility thing. Maybe try RDLs to negate the setup issues and work on your hamstrings and flexibility. Hypers and some additional stretching would help too I'd imagine.
-edit- How's your squat? If hamstrings are an issue for the dl setup, then I can't imagine you're getting good depth without some pretty serious buttwinking?
Well, I thought it was pretty good, but now I wonder. Here's my heavy triple from last friday:
Looks pretty decent to me, maybe a touch high from this angle - you do have a bit of a buttwink at the bottom though, see how your ass is curling down and pulling your arch out a bit? It's likely that's the same hamstring tightness causing that as your knees are pretty good and not sliding forwards too much.
Looks pretty decent to me, maybe a touch high from this angle - you do have a bit of a buttwink at the bottom though, see how your ass is curling down and pulling your arch out a bit? It's likely that's the same hamstring tightness causing that as your knees are pretty good and not sliding forwards too much.
Those definitely were high. That was the most weight I've done since resetting everything and working on form (and in fact the weight that I left off on when I reset), and it was very heavy for me. Definitely got a bit sketchy.
I do see what you're talking about though. I must be one incredibly inflexible mofo. Welll I suppose I know what I need to work on now. That's a start. Thanks again for all your help.
GMs and RDLs should help a lot mate, both will force you to but your lumbar spine in the right position and both will stretch out your hamstrings a lot.
Both will also make you unable to walk properly for a day or two when you first start doing them
Did you try lowering your hips at all? If its awkward, grab the bar and use it as a counterweight to put your hips in a lower position. I think its a set up problem not a flexibility one. If you set up properly you probably won't have the problem you have now.
And the squats do look to be a touch high. You're parallel but you don't break parallel.
EDIT: Also I wouldn't recommend that you try sumo as your primary way of deadlifting. Eventually maybe, but not yet. Sumo is more technical, and you will need to put your hips even further down than on conventional so...
Also, sumo doesn't have as much carryover to general strength as conventional does. You might be a better sumo puller naturally, but I would wait until you are a bit stronger before making it the main way you lift.
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Repay no evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. - Romans 12:17
GMs and RDLs should help a lot mate, both will force you to but your lumbar spine in the right position and both will stretch out your hamstrings a lot.
Both will also make you unable to walk properly for a day or two when you first start doing them
Thanks, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19george
Did you try lowering your hips at all? If its awkward, grab the bar and use it as a counterweight to put your hips in a lower position. I think its a set up problem not a flexibility one. If you set up properly you probably won't have the problem you have now.
And the squats do look to be a touch high. You're parallel but you don't break parallel.
EDIT: Also I wouldn't recommend that you try sumo as your primary way of deadlifting. Eventually maybe, but not yet. Sumo is more technical, and you will need to put your hips even further down than on conventional so...
Also, sumo doesn't have as much carryover to general strength as conventional does. You might be a better sumo puller naturally, but I would wait until you are a bit stronger before making it the main way you lift.
Yeah, I did. But that made the problem worse. The lower I go, the more my lower back rounds, which makes me think it must be a flexibility issue. But, I honestly don't know. I'm flying blind here.
Yeah, the squats were high for sure. Like I said that was heavy as hell and my form got spotty. I'm usually really good about depth, and should've done better there.
No sumo isn't for me, at least not now. It wasn't any better, and I can't see any reason to change. I resisted even trying sumo for the same reason you mentioned - I feel like conventional has a much better carryover to the rest of the lifts and strength in general. But I figured what the hell, I've tried everything else.
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