I am starting a HIT program today.

[BodyMonopolist]

Mike Mentzer style.

Workout A -
Squats 8-15 reps til failure - 1 set
Close grip palm up pull down 6-10 reps til failure- 1 set

Workout B -
Deadlifts 5-8 reps til failure - 1 set
Dips 6-10 reps til failure - 1 set

4-2-4 second reps.

Rotating workouts with 4 days rest in between.
It's sounds completely ****ing crazy but there is nothing to lose and there seems to be a lot of interest on many of the forums I visit. I'll post stats later before workout and keep everyone posted on progress per workout.

[vicjg]

Originally Posted by Sebastianguthery

Mike Mentzer style.

Workout A -
Squats 8-15 reps til failure - 1 set
Close grip palm up pull down 6-10 reps til failure- 1 set

Workout B -
Deadlifts 5-8 reps til failure - 1 set
Dips 6-10 reps til failure - 1 set

4-2-4 second reps.

Rotating workouts with 4 days rest in between.
It's sounds completely ****ing crazy but there is nothing to lose and there seems to be a lot of interest on many of the forums I visit. I'll post stats later before workout and keep everyone posted on progress per workout.

Deadlifts & squats to complete muscle failure, good idea.

[Itsdee]

Ahh nice! Bud

[NaturalHIT]

Originally Posted by Sebastianguthery

Mike Mentzer style.

Workout A -
Squats 8-15 reps til failure - 1 set
Close grip palm up pull down 6-10 reps til failure- 1 set

Workout B -
Deadlifts 5-8 reps til failure - 1 set
Dips 6-10 reps til failure - 1 set

4-2-4 second reps.

Rotating workouts with 4 days rest in between.
It's sounds completely ****ing crazy but there is nothing to lose and there seems to be a lot of interest on many of the forums I visit. I'll post stats later before workout and keep everyone posted on progress per workout.

On one hand (as a HIT user myself) I am pleased seeing other people try HIT, but on the other hand I am often apprehensive.
Your statement "It sounds completely crazy" makes me wonder if you are ready to try something that radical.
Personally I am influenced by Mentzer but I do not follow his Routines per se.
His quest for LOW volume sometimes takes a form of obsession.
For example the routine you posted is missing shoulders almost entirely, chest mainly gets lower part stimulated, no calfs... This is hardly a balanced bodybuilding routine.

Could someone gain size and strength on it? Even if it isn't completely balanced?
Sure. But he has to understand how HIT works.
Mentzer reportedly had great success with his personal training clients, and I have no doubt about it. But when learning from a book (or in many cases even without a book) so many people are not able to make his methods work.

Most people who are used to miltiset just cannot change overnight and start gaining from one set. I believe they need some time to learn how to build intensity. Untill they do they may need more that one set.
Some are never able to learn how to gain from one set, but I believe they can still implement HIT with LOW (2-3) set approach.

And like vicjg pointed out going to failure on squats and deads is tricky.
Not too many people are able or willing to give a spot on barbell squats. You can squat in power cage with safety bars. But I prefer to use Hack squat machine, it's a good simulation of freeweight squat, and I can ask just about anyone to give a spot, so I can safely reach failure.

Deadlift is not safe to go to failure. You can do it and get away with it but it's not safe.
I stop just before I feel my form may become compromised. Doing two (or more) DL sets close to failure may be a safer alternative.


And also what was you previous program? Did you take a week (or more in some cases)OFF before switching to HIT?
Do you have enough lifting experience to maintaing good form on lifts?

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that all you know about HIT is up there in your post. If that is the case your chances of making it work are slim.

[BodyMonopolist]

Yes I am new and got my workout directly from Mentzer's seminar video, In addition, I am fairly new to bodybuilding too, which is what sparked my interest in researching different training programs. To me, what mike and what other H.I.T. advocates said just makes sense and was usually backed by science. Going against the norm in so many other walks of life (politics, medicine vs holistic, conspiracy) it doesn't surprise me that this approach to training intrigued me. And Arthur Jones' many comments on how the supplement and workout equipment is a HUGE market struck my intuition. They don't want you to get big, they want you to try to get big, and want you to take their supplements to try to do it. But if you are approaching it in the wrong fashion you won't get anywhere and just end up frustrated and broke. Sounds a lot like the pharmaceutical industry.

Again I am new, and may not have the gym experience to know that squats and dead lifts are a bitch to do til failure, but I have a willingness to learn and give it my all - and any advice or H.I.T. workout plans that anyone has for such a newbie would be greatly appreciated and taken into my consideration.

[ironwill2008]

Originally Posted by NaturalHIT

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that all you know about HIT is up there in your post. If that is the case your chances of making it work are slim.

^^^^This. While I'm not a HIT advocate, per se, I'd never recommend it for a newb. Get your feet wet in a more mainstream program first, OP. Down the road, if you want to try HIT, you'll then at least have a working knowledge of what's required to get anythng at all out of "One set to failure."

[BodyMonopolist]

IF! H.I.T. is the most efficient way to build muscle, why would I go about lifting in a way that would only consume more of my time and energy. That makes NO sense whatsoever. Why not just do things right from the start.

I am going to revise my workout program to exercises whose form is less difficult. (and has less consequences if performed a little off) Of coarse, just until I get some experience and can perform more complex exercises correctly and safely. If anyone has any suggestions for a beginner H.I.T. program I am very open to them, and appreciate everyone's feedback on my workout thus far.

[ironwill2008]

Originally Posted by Sebastianguthery

IF! H.I.T. is the most efficient way to build muscle, why would I go about lifting in a way that would only consume more of my time and energy. That makes NO sense whatsoever. Why not just do things right from the start.

That's a big "IF." Only a few HIT advocates will tell you that it's the most efficient way to train. The vast majority of the training world will tell you what I'm going to: that HIT, like any other program, will work for a while, but no program will work forever.

If you think HIT is the best path to building mass, then by all means, have at it. Before you do, though, you might want to ask yourself why there are so few HIT advocates on this site, comprising nearly 2 million registered members. Also, you might ask why that few rarely post any pics of themselves.

[grim83]

Originally Posted by Sebastianguthery

IF! H.I.T. is the most efficient way to build muscle, why would I go about lifting in a way that would only consume more of my time and energy. That makes NO sense whatsoever. Why not just do things right from the start.

I am going to revise my workout program to exercises whose form is less difficult. (and has less consequences if performed a little off) Of coarse, just until I get some experience and can perform more complex exercises correctly and safely. If anyone has any suggestions for a beginner H.I.T. program I am very open to them, and appreciate everyone's feedback on my workout thus far.

look dude i understand you wanting to try HIT, and as others have said already its not a good idea. dont get me wrong, i have built a good portion of my size with hit, and it is a great program, but jones and mentzer were well nut jobs. you speak of jones' view of the fitness industry, but do you not realize jones was also a salesman, who started a few exercise machine companies like nautilus, and hit was his selling point for such machines. we're not saying to not do hit, what were saying is to gain some experience on a more mainstream type routine first. most guys who are starting off training alone do not have the understanding, nor the ability to push a set far enough to make 1 set to failure succesful. so here is my idea for you ok.

-start out on a more mainstream routine with less volume, like rip or even mine.

- after running one of those programs to the point where you no longer receive gains then move to HIT.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=118913271

[morderstwo]

Originally Posted by Sebastianguthery

Yes I am new and got my workout directly from Mentzer's seminar video, In addition, I am fairly new to bodybuilding too, which is what sparked my interest in researching different training programs. To me, what mike and what other H.I.T. advocates said just makes sense and was usually backed by science. Going against the norm in so many other walks of life (politics, medicine vs holistic, conspiracy) it doesn't surprise me that this approach to training intrigued me. And Arthur Jones' many comments on how the supplement and workout equipment is a HUGE market struck my intuition. They don't want you to get big, they want you to try to get big, and want you to take their supplements to try to do it. But if you are approaching it in the wrong fashion you won't get anywhere and just end up frustrated and broke. Sounds a lot like the pharmaceutical industry.

Again I am new, and may not have the gym experience to know that squats and dead lifts are a bitch to do til failure, but I have a willingness to learn and give it my all - and any advice or H.I.T. workout plans that anyone has for such a newbie would be greatly appreciated and taken into my consideration.

being fairly new, the first task would be to do learn to do the movements properly, especially multijoint compounds like squats & deads. this is not instinctive, it must be learned. thats the reason why multi set would be better at this stage, since it basically makes u practice the skill more times. once u have this say a few months down the track you can start pushing it to failure.

i share your view regarding medicine, politics & business etc. theyre all a bunch of crooks. i infact did start off using hit early on but with limited success. my response was pretty typical in that id gain strength quite rapidly, only a little mass & then stagnate. this seems to occur for most ppl. only a small % of ppl gain off hit for long term. its been observed that ectmorphs & small boned endomorphs (less than 7.25 inch wrist size) dont respond well to low volume failure methods long term. however for others it may be optimal. here is some good discussion:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=112773431
one thing to note is, these methods are not based on science, but derived logic. their biggest flaw is that they are adamant that 1 routine must fit all trainees optimally. since we are from the same species theyre cannot be more than 1 optimal method. just some food for thought.

[BodyMonopolist]

Just wanted to update everyone how my H.I.T. training was going. First off, I've been consuming about 3,000 Calories a day. Mostly Chicken, rice, and protein shakes.

Last week when I started I weighed in at 163. On Monday I weighed 166. Today I weighed myself at 169. Ill keep everyone posted with my weight as well as my reps and weight. I'm glad I'm trying this regardless what everyone keeps telling me. My next workout will be on Friday, that's 3 full days of rest in between workouts.

[perduebs]

1. You are a new to weight training. Due to this, your body can take more of a workload than an intermediate or advanced lifter. You will make more gains by working out more as a beginner because you will be increasing your neural efficiency and using better form from constantly doing the exercises. Even the most stringent HIT advocates will tell you this (including Mentzer).

2. You will make gains doing any program as a beginner. Again, this is part of the beginner phase of training.

3. You are new to HIT. High intensity training in general requires a level of physical and mental toughness and intensity that most noobs won't be able to meet. I used other forms of HIT for years before trying out Mike Mentzer's version of HIT.

4. Been there, done that. Mike Mentzer's HIT isn't that great IMO. I used it for 12 weeks and was unimpressed. Plus, I can tell you that you most likely don't have the intensity for it.

Basically what I am trying to say is that you need a beginners program first, then a HIT program like MAX-OT which will "train" your intensity level up.

You are not ready for Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty HIT.

[Nick1971]

HIT, in and of itself, isn't automagically the best and most optimal way to gain muscle. It can be effective, but you have the customize the program to work for you. You can't just force it, and you can't blindly assume that just because you do a routine you or someone else made up, that it's going to work best for you, as written.

The whole point about what Mentzer and other popular HIT proponents tried to get across is that you have to balance that workload with recovery in order to make it work. Whereas the workload with HIT is relatively low volume, but high "intensity" you still have to recover from said workouts, but do another workout as soon as you recover. That's how you progress.

Even Mentzer himself said that you can't look at someone's routine, even one he wrote, and expect it to work for you as well as it might for someone else, and that it's essential that you experiment to see what works for you. Rest too much and you don't make as much progress. Rest too little and you risk injury and compromise form. You can't just say that 4 days rest on the program listed in the opening post is optimal, without experimentation.

Not only that, but the recommendation was to go just to "momentary muscular failure" - not necessarily beyond that. In other words, when form starts to suffer, that is when you stop. Some HIT advocates try to harp on going well beyond failure, focusing on "set extenders" or other intensity techniques, in order to make HIT work, and that you can't have an intense workout unless you are physically incapacitated or puking by the end of it. That's just bull****.

Furthermore, some exercises are not safe to go to form failure, such as the Bench Press, Deadlifts or Squats, without either spotters, or equipment that can help you deal with the issue (safety bars for example). That's not to say you can't go right up to that point through reps, and powerlifters train quite frequently to their limits using those exercises. But it's an issue of context. You can't just go out of hand to complete and total failure with those exercises and forget about safety.

The 4-2-4 cadence isn't necessarily perfect, but you should fine something that works for you. I personally like a positive and negative of between 1 and 2 seconds (depending on the exercise), and I lock out on all exercises, but don't hold it there for more than a second. The main thing is maintain good form, don't bounce, or otherwise be sloppy about the movement. Don't cheat, either. When form starts to suffer, you've done enough. If you don't exercise in a controlled fashion - you shouldn't exercise. Period.

But get it out of your head that HIT is the only way to train, and plan on putting intellectual work into making _whatever_ routine you settle on, be successful.

Lastly, almost any decent workout routine, done consistently, and with a focus on progression, is much better than doing nothing.

[GuyJin]

OP,

Since you're just starting out, it's not surprising that you've gained some weight and strength along with it, and that's great. Be advised, however, that the gains will not come forever, not on this programme, and not on any other. It will be tempting to jump the weight up significantly, especially on the power exercises (squats, deads, presses, dips and such) and that's all fine and good, but nail your form down first and increase the amount of weight you do slowly. The biggest mistake HITters make is to jump it up too quickly--and the multi-set guys do this as well--and that'll mean plateauing very fast. As well, give your tendons and ligaments time to adjust to the weight increases.

No, I will not tell you to do a more traditional programme; I don't believe in telling anyone what to do, unless they really don't have a clue. I would caution you, though, to cycle the intensity you use and the power exercises as well. As NaturalHIT pointed out--and wisely so--the "Consolidated Programme" you're doing is good for strength (and I have my own reservations) but even with the so-called "indirect effect" there isn't a whole lot going on for hamstrings, calves, forearms, delts and whatnot; if you do change the exercises, go from dips to either benches or inclines and squats to leg presses or lunges, and every third workout you MIGHT try doing a non-failure type of routine and add in some DIRECT arm, calf and hamstring work, even some presses, just for the sake of overall muscular balance. Again, just a suggestion.

It was suggested by a couple of guys that it's a mistake to copy someone else's routine, no matter what style--I agree. The best lifters, no matter whether multi-set trainees or HIT-style trainees (or something in-between) always started off conventionally and later on ADAPTED the programmes to suit their individual needs. If you're wise enough to do that, then you may just become the biggest dude on the block.

Good luck.

[BodyMonopolist]

I've made some updates to my program. I have 3 workouts and will rest a minimum of 3-5 days between workouts.

Workout 1
Dumbbell lat raises
Bent-Over lat raises
Barbell curls
Tricep cable pressdowns (superset with Dips)

Workout 2
Leg extensions (superset with squat)
Calf Raises
Ab Roller or lots of sex I get with my new body

Workout 3
Flat dumbbell bench press (superset with incline bench press)
Overhead cable pulldown (superset with reverse grip cable pulldown)
Deadlift

Today's workout went as follows:
each was done at about 2-3 seconds - 1 second pause - 2-3 seconds negative
Dumbbell lat raises - 7 x 15 lbs
Bent over dumbbell - 6 x 15 lbs superset 3 x 10lbs
Barbell curl - 12 x 25 lbs - on these i did them individually so left arm first all 12 , then right arm. Is this the best way??
Tricep cable pulldown - (should have went a little heavier) 80 lbs x 20 superset 5 dips.

was ****ing shaking like crazy during each workout. Will prob stick with the same weight a few rounds til my form gets better, my back feels a little sore i think from the curls.

[N@tural1]

Originally Posted by ironwill2008

That's a big "IF." Only a few HIT advocates will tell you that it's the most efficient way to train. The vast majority of the training world will tell you what I'm going to: that HIT, like any other program, will work for a while, but no program will work forever.

If you think HIT is the best path to building mass, then by all means, have at it. Before you do, though, you might want to ask yourself why there are so few HIT advocates on this site, comprising nearly 2 million registered members. Also, you might ask why that few rarely post any pics of themselves.

Absolutely!

I post on a dedicated HIT board as there are some knowledgeable members there and the debates are always fun/interesting, but IF you posted your fine physique as evidence of higher workloads working better than HIT, you would likely be accused of steroid use such is the sad mentality amongst the more dogmatic HIT advocates. It's very sad my friend.

[grim83]

Originally Posted by N@tural1

Absolutely!

I post on a dedicated HIT board as there are some knowledgeable members there and the debates are always fun/interesting, but IF you posted your fine physique as evidence of higher workloads working better than HIT, you would likely be accused of steroid use such is the sad mentality amongst the more dogmatic HIT advocates. It's very sad my friend.

hell, but even here you can barely utter the word hit without guys trying to tear your balls off

[N@tural1]

Originally Posted by grim83

hell, but even here you can barely utter the word hit without guys trying to tear your balls off

Unfortunately numerous rather obnoxious individuals have given what is a time effective and potentially effective training method a very bad name. While I have no issue with HIT as being conducive to achieving a goal, for some reason it certainly attracts the vilest individuals.

For example, only today I mentioned on another board (a HIT board) that I'm not training due to poor health at this time. One of the "nice" guys there responded:

""it may help if you stop having sex with your sister, she f**king ugly anyway.""

Why this type of anti-social behavior? Purely and simply becasue I have an open mind to all training methods!

This is the sad mentality of many of HITs more devoted disciples.

It would be wrong for anyone to instantly "jump" on someone at the mere mention of HIT, but it's clowns like these that have hardened peoples receptions to the mention of the word all be it wrongly so.

[kitarpyar]

Originally Posted by N@tural1

Unfortunately numerous rather obnoxious individuals have given what is a time effective and potentially effective training method a very bad name. While I have no issue with HIT as being conducive to achieving a goal, for some reason it certainly attracts the vilest individuals.

For example, only today I mentioned on another board (a HIT board) that I'm not training due to poor health at this time. One of the "nice" guys there responded:

""it may help if you stop having sex with your sister, she f**king ugly anyway.""

Why this type of anti-social behavior? Purely and simply becasue I have an open mind to all training methods!

This is the sad mentality of many of HITs more devoted disciples.

It would be wrong for anyone to instantly "jump" on someone at the mere mention of HIT, but it's clowns like these that have hardened peoples receptions to the mention of the word all be it wrongly so.

Good to see you posting again N@t1.

I think the name "high intensity" kind of implies it balls to wall tough stuff; so HIT followers, who sometimes in their real lives can be some very nice folks, resort to ugly (eh, supposedly hardcore) behavior while talking about HIT.

Good luck getting back in the gym asap.

[kitarpyar]

Originally Posted by Sebastianguthery

IF! H.I.T. is the most efficient way to build muscle, why would I go about lifting in a way that would only consume more of my time and energy. That makes NO sense whatsoever. Why not just do things right from the start.

Because the world we live in is not all in black and white. Because shades of gray exist, and because no one workout program is the most efficient indefinitely.

On the matter of getting started with HIT, read this part from Natural HIT's post again.

Originally Posted by NaturalHIT

Most people who are used to miltiset just cannot change overnight and start gaining from one set. I believe they need some time to learn how to build intensity. Untill they do they may need more that one set. Some are never able to learn how to gain from one set, but I believe they can still implement HIT with LOW (2-3) set approach.

[LightCrow]

Originally Posted by Sebastianguthery

Yes I am new and got my workout directly from Mentzer's seminar video, .

I've seen that Underground Seminar you're talking about and I would love it if I could gain 40 pounds of muscle in the next 4 months only working out a total of 3 hours. But if something sounds too good to be true, it likely is.

Mentzer's claims of 30-40 lbs of muscle gains on people in 3-4 months are in desperate need of photographic proof. Something which you're not going to find very much of. The trainees I've seen that claimed to be these 250 pound mass monsters built by Heavy Duty just looked fat and out of shape, nothing like a bodybuilder should.

If you're really serious about bodybuilding and want to do HIT, then I would look at some of the early routines of Dorian Yates. He had the right frequency (each body part once every 5 days) and a couple of top work sets and warm ups. Mentzer's version of HD from the early 90s makes a lot more sense than the later consolidated routine.

[grim83]

Originally Posted by N@tural1

Unfortunately numerous rather obnoxious individuals have given what is a time effective and potentially effective training method a very bad name. While I have no issue with HIT as being conducive to achieving a goal, for some reason it certainly attracts the vilest individuals.

For example, only today I mentioned on another board (a HIT board) that I'm not training due to poor health at this time. One of the "nice" guys there responded:

""it may help if you stop having sex with your sister, she f**king ugly anyway.""

Why this type of anti-social behavior? Purely and simply becasue I have an open mind to all training methods!

This is the sad mentality of many of HITs more devoted disciples.

It would be wrong for anyone to instantly "jump" on someone at the mere mention of HIT, but it's clowns like these that have hardened peoples receptions to the mention of the word all be it wrongly so.

yeah, i wrote my first article for bb.com about hit and part 1 deals with that problem somewhat. and i never understood the jedi mentality personally, although while i was training HIT i only read the writings of mentzer, jones, and darden and it became increasingly harder to look at a routine with volume without prejudice, and my training didn't really evolve until i got past that so...

[BodyMonopolist]

Weighed myself today 170.6

Yesterday's Workout
Leg Press - 140lbs x 10 (superset squats 135 x 5)
Leg Extension 62.5 x 6
Single Calf Raises holding 20lb dumbell - 10 reps each

[NaturalHIT]

Originally Posted by Sebastianguthery

Weighed myself today 170.6

Yesterday's Workout
Leg Press - 140lbs x 10 (superset squats 135 x 5)
Leg Extension 62.5 x 6
Single Calf Raises holding 20lb dumbell - 10 reps each

I would caution you against gaining weight too fast, unless it's accompanied by substantial strength increases. HIT works best with slight calorie surpluss, but try to limit future weight gain. In the long run best is to gain about 0.5 lb a week along with steady strength increase.
OK, in the beginning you may gain 1 lb a week and some of it will be fat, but in the future like I said cut that in half.

Also check my version of HIT that I feel is customized for newcomers to HIT.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=119915771

[ironrat42]

^^^ I don't see the point in recommending anymore sound advice to the OP, he simply does what he wants anyways

As far as your weight gain, congratulations, that is good progress, however, since you are brand new that is pretty expected, increase your calories and start any decent lifting program and you will put on some serious poundage in the beginning, what supplements are you taking?

[BodyMonopolist]

it's true I will do what I want, however Im not completely ignorant about it and am not doing anything that can negatively affect me. I'm testing an idea out. Ill report what it does to me. It's' just a workout style. If it doesn't work, **** it, I'll try something else.

Thanks for the info natural ill check it out when I get a second. Going to work out later today, I'll post stats. Yes I have seen some fat gain but its winter so whatever. As far as supplements I have superpump 250 and lipotropic protein. Vitamins and omegas and stuff like that, but ive been taking that kind of thing for years.

Weight this morning was 173

[lefthookright]

Sounds like you just want to be different and want to have a weird workout program. Not that HIT is really that weird or different anyway

[BodyMonopolist]

I just want to be efficient.

Today's workout was really good I felt. I did yoga right before for an hour at the Y so I felt very warmed up and stretched out. I also noticed that my form had improved on dead lifts.

Dumbbell Bench 45lbs x 12 - (superset with incline) - 30lbs x 4
Cable Pull downs - 90 x 10 - (superset with reverse grip pulldowns) - 60 x 9
Deadlifts - 135 x 9

[Nick1971]

You may consider starting a log in the Workout Logs forum, which is a subforum to this one.

[N@tural1]

One huge problem with HIT is that it's advocates cannot clearly define what it even is. Is it a single set to failure (SSTF)? If so Then 2-3 sets per lift cannot be HIT, 2-3 sets is a multi set approach which is largely condemned by HITers.

Even among the zealous SSTF guys there are disagreements. Some will do no warm ups and use a long time under tension (TUT) set purposely withholding effort by deliberately slowing the tempo and waiting for a fatigue based recruitment of the larger muscle fibers.

Others will use warm up/build up sets leading up to a top "work set" to failure and then deny that the build up sets play any role in hypertrophy. This is wrong, they all contribute to workload/volume. Again this is a mulit-set approach despite some HITers claiming that only the last "to failure" set triggered an adaptation (which is wrong).

I'v currently been trying to pin down a few of the more vocal HITers on another board to describe exactly what HIT is, as usual all you get is side-stepping, avoidance and insults.

There's one individual on that board who claims to be a lifelong HITer yet openly admits to using volume for legs yet still argues that an increase in sets is worthless! Another member related how he stagnated using HIT and has further progressed using higher volume. This person has been told of course that a "proper HIT trainer" could had gotten the same results using HIT (the same individual that uses volume at times himself, yep go figure)

Then we have the HIters who think that a "deload' is taking a dump yet others actively employ dual factor training (load/deload)

Nobody there seems able to define what HIT even means yet they remain so dogmatic over a bunch of VERY loose principles. It just gets more of joke everyday. Somewhat amusing however.