Why Crossfitters shouldn't do Olympic lifts

[jdelarod]

Originally Posted by madaozeki

From the Crossift forums:

General themes seem to be "I injured myself doing Crossfit, but kept going because I wanted to finish the workout. Now I'm in horrible pain and no-one is giving me any decent advice because they don't know anything about injuries. People just tell me to see my doctor. Why can't my coach help me? My coach is the one that had me do all this stuff in the first place"

So just a brief glance at the crossfit message boards indicates a deeply-rooted culture of injury and ignore. If someone gets injured, they're forgotten about.

And that above is exactly why the toughest monsters I ever knew in the SOF community didnt do CF.

[Arlecchino]

NSFW

[hazard52003]

Originally Posted by Arlecchino

NSFW

lol i saw that the other day on the misc.. gave me a good chuckle

[Fury22]

The other argument I've heard that makes me laugh is the practicality argument. I have a friend who is an avid crossfitter (as in it runs his life it seems), and he made a comment about practicality. I used to believe this (not crossfit related), but I've come to realize practicality is relative.

Example:
"You do bodybuilding stuff. You have no practical strength. I do crossfit."
"I know. I don't care."
---The "bodybuilder" in this case does not care about about avid CF guy's ability to complete 3000 kipping pullups/500 hang snatches/6000 burpees in 9 minutes, and neither do most people. Practicality is relative.

The other thing that gets me is the attitude of crossfit being special and groundbreaking. It's not. Crossfit does nothing that athletes and trainers weren't already doing before. The only difference is marketing and cult organization. Most know this in principle, but many new crossfitters think that they are somehow training beyond the norm. You're not. Crossfit is nothing new and never was. Look around the world at the many different ways in which athletes are produced, even within the same sport, without any crossfit influence. This applies to present day and long before. Look at Joe DeFranco and WS4SB and how many stellar athletes he has trained, especially at the professional and collegiate levels.

OK I'm going to eat pelmeni and ice cream and watch a Russian movie.

[JumpSmash]

Just to add a little to this conversation, I got my bumpers from a crossfitter who tore his rotator cuff.

it was a good score but kind of sad that his doctor says he cant do any more overhead lifting.

[AusLifter06]

Hmmm I'll look on the bright side of it and bare that in mind when I need some plates

[AICfan69]

Great information and debate. I tend to agree with the topic starter... I'm not perfect I'm sure in my lifts. I'm good, I know that. I know I don't injure myself (or haven't for years) from weightlifting, and I don't go in the high rep range while doing oly lifting for the exact reason that's already been said. I think that's the most important thing we can take away from this debate.
BTW, the crossfit board, and culture in general is very close-minded IMO. I would love to see some of you take your arguments over there... then again unfortunately I'm sure it will not be accepted.

[michsxmchn]

I think this sums it up. Written by one of the more accomplished CrossFit athletes, Ricky Frausto...former collegiate wrestler, CSCS certified, BS in Kines. Represents what CrossFit truly is bout.

At 5'5", 150 lbs, here are some of his Olympic and strength stats:

Weightlifting/Weight Lifting:
Clean ? 272
Jerk ? 274
Overhead Squat ? 230
Overhead Squat Bodyweight ? 15 reps
Front Squat ? 1RM ? 290, 3RM ? 277
Deadlift ? 1RM ? 445, 4RM ? 418
Push Press ? 228, 218(2RM)
Snatch ? 201

And some endurance stats:

800 meter run – 2:25
1600 meter run – 5:37
5K run – 19 min.
500 Row – 1:33

I think everyone would agree that those numbers represent an impressive balance of both strength and endurance.

More stats, blogs and vids on his blog but I can't link it because of my post count I guess.

His response to a related topic. It's long but well said...

A couple of responses from people. I am in the middle. I am a power-lifter, Olympic weightlifter, wrestler, crossfitter, etc., etc., at heart. I don?t think anyone should follow any one program. I don?t think anyone should leave out any one person. If the desire is there, take them in and use the right tool for the job. If that is CrossFit then that is CrossFit. If it is Olympic weightlifting, then use Olympic weightlifting. If it is weight loss, then use a combination of many disciplines. What I want is for people to think for themselves. CrossFit has its merits and for me, it is my sport but that doesn?t mean I will use it for every case. I am smarter than that. I know how to get people strong. I know how to get people fit. I know that I need people to learn technique. I know when the notch needs to be turned up. If you are CrossFit only, then you have another thing coming. If you are power-lifting only, then you have another thing coming. Don?t fight, use from each other and accept that different tools are used for different jobs. Nothing John said offended me. We as humans are weak. Look around you. Everywhere, there are humans that couldn?t fight off a small child. I even train some cops that I would not be scared of on the street if I ran into one of them. That is not good.

CrossFit has done wonders for a lot of people. Its a great program. I love it. It?s my sport. Some say you can?t compete at exercising but I wonder how basketball started. And how come you can compete at power-lifting, aren?t those exercises? Nevertheless, I am a big believer in CrossFit but I also know better that it is not the end all, be all. Very rarely do I allow athletes to engage in high rep Olympic lifting. I?d rather they go heavier and do much less volume per round. You get more out of it and become a better athlete. I believe in a strength bias too. I feel that you need a strength component to your programming. A dedicated one, not just one where you do 5 sets of 5 every now and then. It?s a disservice if you don?t work towards getting your clients stronger. The met-con will always be there. I wish the situation was ideal for Joe and I. I would definitely put clients on a dedicated strength program with no met-con for at least a month. In this fashion, I could strengthen the squat and dead-lift technique. I could get clients to improve their upper body strength which is sorely lacking. This would improve the client ten-fold. Then when I start to introduce the met-con, they have a solid foundation of which to improve. I could produce some monsters this way.

Unfortunately, this situation is not ideal. In order for me to survive as a business owner and get solid work completed in one hour classes, I need CrossFit. I am a good enough coach to make it work. I can push the strength component and keep the fun part of CrossFit intact. This is huge with women. Women are scared of strength training. They think they will get bigger but it just doesn?t happen. If anything, its the met-con that gets them bigger. They feel like all the sweating is making them smaller but in reality, a workout like Karen with a 150 squats, is actually providing an environment where hypertrophy can occur. Throw in workouts with high reps and heavier weights and now you really have a situation where hypertrophy can occur. All in all, women just don?t have a suitable amount of testosterone to get them that big. It?s usually a case of genetics. If big hips runs in your family, then you are going to be stuck with big hips. It?s not the weightlifting that is causing that. Also, a lot of it stems from diet. Believe it or not but the food you put in your mouth has a lot to do with how you look. Anyways, I can push CrossFit because it does work, it?s fun, and if the person doing it puts enough work into it and buys into improving diet and rest, they will get really fit. Once they start buying into it, I can then start showing them other forms of fitness. We can start looking into strongman, power-lifting, and Olympic lifting as an individual sport. We can keep using the met-con to keep work capacity high but they can then specialize in the sport of their choice. For example, focus their efforts on improving the Olympic lifts only, if that is what they want to do.

All in all, I am on both sides of the coin. I do want people to get stronger and stop doing hour long workouts. I don?t need a 5K all the time to be good at distance. If you love doing it, then that is one thing but doing it for fitness is wrong. On the same token, CrossFit is CrossFit. Make fun of it all you want but it is a much better way to workout than what is going on now in the fitness industry. To many trainers don?t know what the hell they are doing. They have a sheet and walk you from machine to machine. They are now using CrossFit methods because they don?t have to think. They can just steal a workout or make a stupid random one up and put a client through it. That?s not really CrossFit. But at least they are doing real movements. The more people we get doing CrossFit, the better off we all are. Use it as a vehicle to bigger and better things. Its getting people excited about working out again. I am training people that never saw themselves as the working out type. People that never wanted to workout. They are working out now. Its fun and physically and mentally rewarding. This exercise or way of working out has been around a long time. They were being performed long before CrossFit ever came around but Coach G packaged it up all nice and neat in order to get the masses to try it and now love it. Its just like an insurance adjuster. They usually won?t insure something because its dangerous but if you can just get one of them to try it and see that it isn?t, they will give in. This is what Coach G did. He made it seem different, new and fresh. Once they stepped in and tried it, they fall in love with it.

So you can see, I am on both sides. I won?t bash either side. There?s no room for it. I want, at a bodyweight of 150 pounds, a 900 pound back squat. I want to be able to dead-lift 5 times my body-weight. I can only do 3 times but its a start. I want to be able to press a lot. I want to be really strong. If you know what you are doing, then you also know that isn?t specializing. Strength is so general in nature, it can?t be specializing. I also want to be able to run fast, do handstands, Snatch 250 pounds and Clean and Jerk 325 pounds. I want to be able to do a lot of pull-ups. I want to vertical jump 35 inches. I want a lot of things. And why can?t I have them? I believe I can, if I put in the work. Its about having fun and doing what you love. If you want to run 100 milers, then do it but lift heavy weights too. I mean lift really heavy weights. Be the odd man out in your sport. Show them that you can do both. It?s healthier.

I love human performance. I won?t be weighted down by one discipline. Life is too short. Open your mind. Learn about H.I.T. Training. Even if you don?t think its right. Learn about all disciplines and use the right tool for the job. Don?t try and fit a square peg into a circle just because you want to be right. Learn how to get results for your clients using the right tool. That is how you separate yourself from everyone else. Isn?t that what C-R-O-S-S-F-I-T really is? Use all disciplines, right?

Just my two cents. Post comments if you have any.

[michsxmchn]

That video posted was hilarious by the way!

[madaozeki]

Eminently sensible post, and very little, if anything, to disagree with. If only more Crossfit trainers were so insightful!

Should point out one thing, of course:

former collegiate wrestler

This implies that the majority of his strength and power, if not all of it, was acquired BEFORE coming to Crossfit. So again, while Crossfit-style workouts can be a useful tool, they are not a be-all-and-end-all, as he himself points out.

Also, the point of this thread wasn't to bash Crossfit in general; rather it was to bash the use of hi-rep Olympic lifts and lack of proper form instruction. It then morphed into a discussion of the high injury rate of Crossfitters, a consequence of both of the above, plus the general hi-rep, heavy-weight pounding of other exercises.

It seems this guy would have very little to disagree with with any of what we've posted either!

[Fury22]

Originally Posted by madaozeki

Eminently sensible post, and very little, if anything, to disagree with. If only more Crossfit trainers were so insightful!

Should point out one thing, of course:

former collegiate wrestler

This implies that the majority of his strength and power, if not all of it, was acquired BEFORE coming to Crossfit. So again, while Crossfit-style workouts can be a useful tool, they are not a be-all-and-end-all, as he himself points out.

Also, the point of this thread wasn't to bash Crossfit in general; rather it was to bash the use of hi-rep Olympic lifts and lack of proper form instruction. It then morphed into a discussion of the high injury rate of Crossfitters, a consequence of both of the above, plus the general hi-rep, heavy-weight pounding of other exercises.

It seems this guy would have very little to disagree with with any of what we've posted either!

Agreed. The improper instruction was the target. This is an example of what a trainer/instructor should be.

[r_graz]

Originally Posted by madaozeki

Again, there are far better ways of achieving the same bang for the buck without having a bodyweight barbell shaking like a vibrating bed in a motel supported DIRECTLY overhead in an extremely highly-fatigued state. Just asking to drop that thing directly on your back/head/knees.

I especially like the way you managed to work Nicole, motel, and vibrating bed into the same post

But seriously.....

That Crossfit video is pretty bad. What's worse is....it's far from the worst out there.

I've had a nasty wrist injury from inattention to form in a clean. What bothers me is that that is the kind of form that's being ingrained - and even praised - in that video.

[gbg]

Originally Posted by r_graz

I especially like the way you managed to work Nicole, motel, and vibrating bed into the same post

But seriously.....

That Crossfit video is pretty bad. What's worse is....it's far from the worst out there.

I've had a nasty wrist injury from inattention to form in a clean. What bothers me is that that is the kind of form that's being ingrained - and even praised - in that video.

Mezzie has a way with words fer sure!

[jdelarod]

Ironically, there was a thread on the official CF boards talking about way too many people getting hurt using bad form. CF moderators locked it down.

[madaozeki]

Originally Posted by jdelarod

Ironically, there was a thread on the official CF boards talking about way too many people getting hurt using bad form. CF moderators locked it down.

Wow, just wow.

[gbg]

Originally Posted by jdelarod

Ironically, there was a thread on the official CF boards talking about way too many people getting hurt using bad form. CF moderators locked it down.

Blasphemy!

[olyw8lifter]

I read through the whole thing. It was mostly about a video posted on the main page of a couple people performing Isabel (30 rep snatch for time) and both videos showed the person with pretty bad form performing these fairly light snatches. Most of the argument was whether the intensity of performing the workout for time outweighs the need for perfect form. It was a most interesting argument, though pretty funny.

[Arlecchino]

Originally Posted by jdelarod

Ironically, there was a thread on the official CF boards talking about way too many people getting hurt using bad form. CF moderators locked it down.

Link?

[olyw8lifter]

Originally Posted by Arlecchino

Link?

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=52624

Here you go.

[madaozeki]

Dear lord. That Barry Cooper affiliate guy sure sounds like a brainwashed disciple. Can't argue with someone like that...

Her form for the first few reps is actually half-decent, except for the excessive use of the back to break the bar off the floor. Of course it degrades rapidly, and the last minute turned into round-back heaves off the ground, zero "explosion" via hip drive or proper extension (which is how power output is supposed to be achieved when snatching), and horrible bar control when she lowers it down (she should be dropping it on every single rep when she's that fatigued).

There are so many contradictions in Barry Cooper's post on page 8 that it's not even worth going through them point by point.

Yikes.

That girl's a beast and would probably do great with some proper Olympic lifting coaching and a reasonable training program.

[gbg]

Originally Posted by madaozeki

Dear lord. That Barry Cooper affiliate guy sure sounds like a brainwashed disciple. Can't argue with someone like that...

Her form for the first few reps is actually half-decent, except for the excessive use of the back to break the bar off the floor. Of course it degrades rapidly, and the last minute turned into round-back heaves off the ground, zero "explosion" via hip drive or proper extension (which is how power output is supposed to be achieved when snatching), and horrible bar control when she lowers it down (she should be dropping it on every single rep when she's that fatigued).

There are so many contradictions in Barry Cooper's post on page 8 that it's not even worth going through them point by point.

Yikes.

That girl's a beast and would probably do great with some proper Olympic lifting coaching and a reasonable training program.

What are you looking at?

[sheepyd]

"For strong athletes, at certain times and places--like max efforts, which here was a Max Isabel for time (there is no difference between a power lifting meet, and an "all in" Metcon)--they make calculated risks to increase their results. That is what happened here."

Wtf. No powerlifting or Olympic lifters take calculated risks..... unless you mean lifting a PR. No one lets form breakdown and attempt to finish the deadlift in a compromising position, the same goes for Oly lifters when they initiate the first pull. Unless he's refering to letting the upper back round, to prevent injury.... wtf.

[sheepyd]

"All I did was Google World Record Deadlift. I knew damn well he would not have a proper lordotic arch, because THEY NEVER DO. Powerlifters hamstrings are too tight."

WTF telling andy bolton his lower back isn't in extension. What a goddamn blind idiot. And defending the girl cleaning with a rounded lumbar..... Blind and clueless. No wonder Rip and Greyskull have set sail from crossfit....

[sheepyd]

Ok after reading this read I now fully agree with Mez and Arch. Crossfitters shouldn't even hold a barbell. The smart ones are moving/will move away and will no longer be "Crossfitters", they'll be strong humans with good 'work capacity' whatever that means.

I've never seen this side of crossfit. I'm freaking shellshocked.

[Arlecchino]

Originally Posted by sheepyd

Ok after reading this read I now fully agree with Mez and Arch. Crossfitters shouldn't even hold a barbell. The smart ones are moving/will move away and will no longer be "Crossfitters", they'll be strong humans with good 'work capacity' whatever that means.

I've never seen this side of crossfit. I'm freaking shellshocked.

Really, the same thing happens with cult-like mentality everywhere. Worst thing people can do is to blindly defend a program without really knowing what they are talking about.

[gbg]

I just read a couple of pages of the link to their site, if there own members feel this way why are they crossfiters?
I didn't read the whole 8 pages but it seems the majority of them are in agreement about the poor technique and injury rate.

People can do what they want, if you want to be a crossfiter and concern yourself with with power out put rather than picking one sport and mastering it, it's your decision it's a lame decision but it's yours.

[jdelarod]

the reason why people do CF is you get some pretty good gains for 6-8 weeks, then you get pretty good injuries for 6-8 months and you keep thinking as soon as your shoulders quit aching you'll go back to the same gains you made.

Then one day you decide to get on the bench becuase you must be getting stronger because your Fran time is down 42 seconds you know? You get on the bench with a weight you benched easily before you started CF and spend 3 minutes pinned by that weight because you cant kip a barbell and you dont have a spotter because they are all doing Barbara for time.

At that point, you either come to your sense or drink the Koolaid and descend into darkness.

At least that was my experience.

[olyw8lifter]

Mezzie, totally agree with you on the Barry guy, contradicts himself. He sure beleives he is right, no matter what.

The cult mentality is present through that entire board, and they especially preach it to the people who post that they're newb's. The funniest thing to read is the just starting sub forum.

As I said before, doing these types of workouts every so often is good, but there is always a fine line between performance, form, and injury.

[raffiki]

Originally Posted by olyw8lifter

As I said before, doing these types of workouts every so often is good, but there is always a fine line between performance, form, and injury.

The concept of crossfit is fine. Even the idea of doing a 5RM in the classical lifts is fine, but you need to be properly trained for that. The idea of having strength along with stamina is great idea for general fitness. But why do stupid things to accomplish that when it is so easy to train those properties safely?

Bud Jeffries has a lot of good stuff on training that way. http://www.strongerman.com/

[olyw8lifter]

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out later this week.