Fast vs Slow twitch

[Brettson617]

Is it counterproductive to train leg muscles with both fast and slow twitch training methods. I am trying to gain speed so i bought a resistance band training program. I currently squat, deadlift, leg press etc. In other words, will it slow my speed gains if I lift waits while on the fast twitch program?

[BruceLee23]

Originally Posted by Brettson617

Is it counterproductive to train leg muscles with both fast and slow twitch training methods. I am trying to gain speed so i bought a resistance band training program. I currently squat, deadlift, leg press etc. In other words, will it slow my speed gains if I lift waits while on the fast twitch program?

It was always my understanding that lifting weights IS working your fast twitch muscles. Otherwise how would squating increase your vertical? Unless you're doing high reps and low weight which would work more on the endurance side of things.

[nen78059]

Originally Posted by BruceLee23

It was always my understanding that lifting weights IS working your fast twitch muscles. Otherwise how would squating increase your vertical? Unless you're doing high reps and low weight which would work more on the endurance side of things.

Partly correct IMO. I have always read working fast twitch vs slow twich is based on your rep range. Low reps slow and controlled or High reps using speed and explosiveness.

No I do not think using both methods is counter productive. Its my opinion and just an opinion but using both methods of training will lead to a better athletic capabilites. If size was your only concern then sure use heavy ass weight all the time.

[labradarep]

Originally Posted by Brettson617

Is it counterproductive to train leg muscles with both fast and slow twitch training methods. I am trying to gain speed so i bought a resistance band training program. I currently squat, deadlift, leg press etc. In other words, will it slow my speed gains if I lift waits while on the fast twitch program?

We need more info.

What specifically are you doing for your program(s) ?

[Brettson617]

Originally Posted by labradarep

We need more info.

What specifically are you doing for your program(s) ?

the fast twitch program is going to be resistance bands and holding a position for a certain amount of time. i ordered the program from athleticquickness.com . currently when i work out legs its between 8 and 12 reps, not like super heavy. i do leg press, squats, deadlifts, leg curls, quad extensions, calf extensions, and power cleans.

Im just wondering if that mass building workout will conflict with my speed training.

And for anyone like me who thought weight ifting gets you faster, the people at athleticquickness.com are pretty sure thats false.

[nen78059]

Originally Posted by Brettson617

the fast twitch program is going to be resistance bands and holding a position for a certain amount of time. i ordered the program from athleticquickness.com . currently when i work out legs its between 8 and 12 reps, not like super heavy. i do leg press, squats, deadlifts, leg curls, quad extensions, calf extensions, and power cleans.

Im just wondering if that mass building workout will conflict with my speed training.

And for anyone like me who thought weight ifting gets you faster, the people at athleticquickness.com are pretty sure thats false.

Weight lifting makes you stronger not faster and too much mass will slow you down. If you want to be faster you need to train for speed. Ever seen Ronnie Colmen or Jay Cutler run anywhere? Hell no they can barely walk.

[Brettson617]

Originally Posted by nen78059

Weight lifting makes you stronger not faster and too much mass will slow you down. If you want to be faster you need to train for speed. Ever seen Ronnie Colmen or Jay Cutler run anywhere? Hell no they can barely walk.

Haha, so you think I should pick one or the other? no middle ground?

[IGF-WON]

Originally Posted by nen78059

Partly correct IMO. I have always read working fast twitch vs slow twich is based on your rep range. Low reps slow and controlled or High reps using speed and explosiveness.

why not low reps using speed and explosiveness?

[Brettson617]

Originally Posted by IGF-WON

why not low reps using speed and explosiveness?

Idk i saw some awesome info on athleticquickness.com but it didnt mention if I could continue with a strength routine.

[nen78059]

Originally Posted by Brettson617

Haha, so you think I should pick one or the other? no middle ground?

Train for both your body will adapt.

[nen78059]

Originally Posted by IGF-WON

why not low reps using speed and explosiveness?

Ok so I have done some reading tonight because this topic does interest me but I am not an expert.

This is my understanding. Slow twitch and fast twitch muscle fibers perform differently. Your fast twitch muscle are responsible for short powerfull bursts of movement which is where you get your total strength from as well. This is where all your power comes from and what sprinters utilize to get their great speed.

Slow twitch fibers are for more endurance type activities and high repetition exercises. I know to sounds backwards but its not.

As far as my understanding goes. Training heavy with a large amount of weight does not necesarily train your fast twitch or slow twitch fibers it depends on how you lift the weight. If you make quick bursty repitions your working your fast twitch fibers. If you are moving slow and your muscles are under stress for a prolonged period of time your working your slow twitch fibers.

I beleive the best way to train is to train both types of fibers. I switch it up every week between low reps working on power and high reps working on endurance. I find this to make me feel the best I am strong and can kep up with the younger guys when I play sports.

Maybe an expert will stop uby and give us their opinion. Good luck.

[chaddukes]

Well, remember that it's not actually the fibers themselves that are slow twitch or fast twitch. It's the motor units controlling the fibers. And those motor units can be attached to large or small fiber bundles. But, fast twitch motor units are usually bigger and more powerful bundles of fibers that don't have much endurance. Since they have little in the way of endurance they don't like to engage unless they are really needed. They won't engage until you need to either lift a very heavy weight, or move a weight very fast.

Slow Twitch units are not nearly as powerful but can "go all night." They are the first to show up and the last to leave.

To train your "fast twitch" capacity you want to work with maximal and near maximal weights, and you want to lift fast. So, heavy deadlifts, sprints, plyos, med ball slams, olympic lifts, etc. These are the things that will improve your fast twitch motor units. Remember, that just because a heavy deadlift might take 8 seconds to complete doesn't mean that it's a slow twitch activity. The intent of the lifter is to get it up as fast as possible, and that's what matters. Also, remember that engaging the fast twitch motor units also guarantees that you're training the slow twitch units as they will always engage first.

Adding muscle mass doesn't necessarily slow you down. Alot of sprinters are jacked! But, it depends on the activity. Having huge arms does nothing for your bike sprints!

[Jesse7771]

Im curious about muscle composition aswell but I do know for certain speed is gained through fast twitch muscle fiber so your working the same kind of fibers.

[zephed56]

Keep squatting and deadlifting heavy if you want to run faster. Half the posts in this thread are not good.

Power is dependent on strength. Strength is the easiest quality to improve (vs power, speed, muscular endurance), and you will be able to increase strength for much longer than all other qualities. People who do not already have a good base of strength, and who want to jump higher and run faster should focus on building a good base of strength on squats and deadlifts.

[morderstwo]

Originally Posted by zephed56

Keep squatting and deadlifting heavy if you want to run faster. Half the posts in this thread are not good.

Power is dependent on strength. Strength is the easiest quality to improve (vs power, speed, muscular endurance), and you will be able to increase strength for much longer than all other qualities. People who do not already have a good base of strength, and who want to jump higher and run faster should focus on building a good base of strength on squats and deadlifts.

x2, the broscience is off the scale in this thread.

the fast twitch fibers that have no endurance & dont use oxygen as a fuel source are stimulated by heavy weight & are out of fuel in 10 to 15 seconds or 3 or 4 reps. these fibers give you explosive power. u dont have to be lifting fast to be developing explosive power. u can lift a very heavy weight slowly & it will do the job. when these fibers are strengthened they will be able to generate higher force & therefore accelerate explosively your body or your limbs which are much lighter than the barbell.

keep your 'explosive practice' for the specific skill ie. sprinting or punching or whatever. stuff like guys jabbing a punching bag with 20lb dumbells is broscience of the 70s & 80s & looks cool for movies. its actually counterproductive for the skill. your skill learning should involve the exact conditions relative to your sport. so bench heavy to develop the fast twitch fibers in your chest shoulder & triceps, then practice punching with the glove. if u practice punching with a 20lb dumbell it actually 'dilutes' the skill between the 2 conditions.

these 2B fast twitch fibers do not bulk very much. to gain mass u focus on type 2A fibers which have both strength & endurance 6-12 rep range. thats why guys like ronnie & cutler cant run fast. they may occasionally go extra heavy under 5 reps (ronnie) but its not the bulk of his volume (no pun). & u need calorie surplus to gain mass, many athletes train for strength & gain it without the size.

[Brettson617]

Just to let evryone know ive been training for football, so coaches are always impressed with how much you can put up, but my main problem on the football field is speed so if that means i have to tone down the powerliftinjg fine, but other people in the thread think powerlifting fast will increase speed. so im still kind of caught in the middle.

[milksworth]

Originally Posted by nen78059

Weight lifting makes you stronger not faster and too much mass will slow you down. If you want to be faster you need to train for speed. Ever seen Ronnie Colmen or Jay Cutler run anywhere? Hell no they can barely walk.

have you seen kevin levrone run? you would say damn hes fast!

[azzuk23]

Originally Posted by nen78059

Weight lifting makes you stronger not faster and too much mass will slow you down. If you want to be faster you need to train for speed. Ever seen Ronnie Colmen or Jay Cutler run anywhere? Hell no they can barely walk.

Flex Lewis runs the 100m in less than 11sec

Most Olympic sprinters will regularly squat 500lbs+

Originally Posted by zephed56

Keep squatting and deadlifting heavy if you want to run faster. Half the posts in this thread are not good.

Power is dependent on strength. Strength is the easiest quality to improve (vs power, speed, muscular endurance), and you will be able to increase strength for much longer than all other qualities. People who do not already have a good base of strength, and who want to jump higher and run faster should focus on building a good base of strength on squats and deadlifts.

x2 - speed, like vert jump is dependent on max strength and the % of this strength that can be applied quickly (as during sprinting you spend much less time on the ground than when squatting)

Originally Posted by morderstwo

x2, the broscience is off the scale in this thread.

the fast twitch fibers that have no endurance & dont use oxygen as a fuel source are stimulated by heavy weight & are out of fuel in 10 to 15 seconds or 3 or 4 reps. these fibers give you explosive power. u dont have to be lifting fast to be developing explosive power. u can lift a very heavy weight slowly & it will do the job. when these fibers are strengthened they will be able to generate higher force & therefore accelerate explosively your body or your limbs which are much lighter than the barbell.

keep your 'explosive practice' for the specific skill ie. sprinting or punching or whatever. stuff like guys jabbing a punching bag with 20lb dumbells is broscience of the 70s & 80s & looks cool for movies. its actually counterproductive for the skill. your skill learning should involve the exact conditions relative to your sport. so bench heavy to develop the fast twitch fibers in your chest shoulder & triceps, then practice punching with the glove. if u practice punching with a 20lb dumbell it actually 'dilutes' the skill between the 2 conditions.

these 2B fast twitch fibers do not bulk very much. to gain mass u focus on type 2A fibers which have both strength & endurance 6-12 rep range. thats why guys like ronnie & cutler cant run fast. they may occasionally go extra heavy under 5 reps (ronnie) but its not the bulk of his volume (no pun). & u need calorie surplus to gain mass, many athletes train for strength & gain it without the size.

This. Doing things like punching with dumbbells, shooting/passing with heavy balls, weighted jump squats etc. all have their place in training. However, by focusing on these types of exercises, it will slow down your movements as the body adapts to the loading.


I wouldn't worry about strength slowing you down until you can squat 2.5x your bodyweight for reps

[NIguy]

Never seen so much **** in one thread, most of these posts are bull****. The last couple of post are right.

If you squat heavy, emphasising explosiveness and practise sprinting your ****ing sprinting will improve regardless of what those wankers on athleticquickness.com either they don't know **** or you are misinterpreting them. Why the **** do you think soo many people who run the 100meters really fast spend all day ****ing squating? Because it works.

[BruceLee23]

Well if you're going to try and get faster for football make sure you're actually getting some sprints in. Heavy weights and low weights used explosively can help build your speed halfway, but it will never convert if you're not out there sprinting every day or every other day as well. THAT is why lots of guys who lift weights don't have agility and speed, they don't focus enough on the real situation like some other guys mentioned. I'm sorry I didn't give a better reply before, I was so tired last night.

You can actually increase your footspeed simply by practicing trying to make your legs move faster as well. You can do this without getting stronger at all, it's just something that comes with practice. Didn't make that up btw, my track coach with basically a dozen state titles always told us to focus on our leg turnover while doing speed stuff. Do little drills like high knees, butt kicks, and those ladder type things where you take a step in each whole of the ladder. If you go as quick as you can you'll become more agile.

So keep doing the stuff in the weight room and I'm sure your thing that you got from athletic quickness will help too, but just don't ignore the real life situation drills. Oh and btw the reason working slow twitch muscles would hinder your fast twitch muscle development is because you'll be spending a workout on slow twitch that you could have spent on fast twitch. They shouldn't be counterproductive to each other in any other way.

[gordonrumble]

You want to focus on training for power.

Low reps, maximum bar velocity, olympic lifts.

[fightinsiouxfan]

I've seen some crazy increases with the athletes I train...we do 5x5 training with cleans, squat jumps, push press...shoot me a pm with a link to some vids of the equipment i use, its really unique

[Brettson617]

Originally Posted by fightinsiouxfan

I've seen some crazy increases with the athletes I train...we do 5x5 training with cleans, squat jumps, push press...shoot me a pm with a link to some vids of the equipment i use, its really unique

Your a personal trainer? So what do you think about this whole thing?
Thanks for all your help guys.

[chaddukes]

Originally Posted by BruceLee23

Well if you're going to try and get faster for football make sure you're actually getting some sprints in.
You can actually increase your footspeed simply by practicing trying to make your legs move faster as well.

Uh, sort of. You're right that sprint practice is important. And you're right that technique is important. But, you can only make your feet go so much faster. The real gains come from increasing the distance between footfalls. And this comes from increased power. And the increased power comes from weight lifting for strength improvements.

[BruceLee23]

Originally Posted by chaddukes

Uh, sort of. You're right that sprint practice is important. And you're right that technique is important. But, you can only make your feet go so much faster. The real gains come from increasing the distance between footfalls. And this comes from increased power. And the increased power comes from weight lifting for strength improvements.

Yeah it's a combination for sure. Just wanted him to know not to focus on weights over sprints/drills. Weights should be supplementary to the running work, not the other way around with his goals.

You can sprint in different motions to work on diff things though. We would do sprints working on leg turnover(smaller quicker steps), power(longer, more powerful steps), focusing on kicking our feet back(not butt kicks but a sprint), and then just sprint trying to put it all together.... Or you can do plyometric running by trying to "bound" with each step, which we usually did up a hill because it was less stressful on the landings. That's a more sport specific way of increasing the distance between footfalls.

[chaddukes]

Originally Posted by BruceLee23

You can sprint in different motions to work on diff things though. We would do sprints working on leg turnover(smaller quicker steps), power(longer, more powerful steps), focusing on kicking our feet back(not butt kicks but a sprint), and then just sprint trying to put it all together.... Or you can do plyometric running by trying to "bound" with each step, which we usually did up a hill because it was less stressful on the landings. That's a more sport specific way of increasing the distance between footfalls.

Thats all good advice. I just didn't want to leave the OP with the impression that you could simply "move your legs faster."

[Brettson617]

You can sprint in different motions to work on diff things though. We would do sprints working on leg turnover(smaller quicker steps), power(longer, more powerful steps), focusing on kicking our feet back(not butt kicks but a sprint), and then just sprint trying to put it all together

Yeah like i keep mentioning im on an isometric program, but i also plan on getting nike sparq training. its ridiculously overpriced but it comes with all kinds of agility stuff. i think ill probably chill out on the heavy lifting for a while and focus more on speed and agility.

[BruceLee23]

Originally Posted by Brettson617

You can sprint in different motions to work on diff things though. We would do sprints working on leg turnover(smaller quicker steps), power(longer, more powerful steps), focusing on kicking our feet back(not butt kicks but a sprint), and then just sprint trying to put it all together

Yeah like i keep mentioning im on an isometric program, but i also plan on getting nike sparq training. its ridiculously overpriced but it comes with all kinds of agility stuff. i think ill probably chill out on the heavy lifting for a while and focus more on speed and agility.

Well....if you think the isometric program is good enough to promote strength gains then fine, but personally I wouldn't cut out heavy lifting entirely. Once or twice a week would still be good imo. Isometrics are kind of a diff type of strength training and I just think it's good to do a combination of them and normal lifts, especially if the isometrics are only targeting certain muscles and you're not working your quads/hams/or gluts as much as you should.... I guess since it's a "program" it told you this, but just to make sure, you know you gotta do the isometrics at varying angles right?

If you only hold one position you're going to only strengthen your muscles and tendons at that one position. So basically on any exercise you're doing it should have you doing 2-4 different angles to make you stronger throughout a full range of motion, unless you just don't care about increasing strength at a certain angle. Just trying to help, hopefully you already knew that anyway but I wanted to make sure.

[Brettson617]

Originally Posted by BruceLee23

Well....if you think the isometric program is good enough to promote strength gains then fine, but personally I wouldn't cut out heavy lifting entirely. Once or twice a week would still be good imo. Isometrics are kind of a diff type of strength training and I just think it's good to do a combination of them and normal lifts, especially if the isometrics are only targeting certain muscles and you're not working your quads/hams/or gluts as much as you should.... I guess since it's a "program" it told you this, but just to make sure, you know you gotta do the isometrics at varying angles right?

If you only hold one position you're going to only strengthen your muscles and tendons at that one position. So basically on any exercise you're doing it should have you doing 2-4 different angles to make you stronger throughout a full range of motion, unless you just don't care about increasing strength at a certain angle. Just trying to help, hopefully you already knew that anyway but I wanted to make sure.

Yea theres all different angles and positions. Im not gonna cut out heavy lifting i just dont want to be so sore that i cant sprint. Thanks for the help.
And also i know that no body part should be worked out twice in 48 hours, so does that mean i cant speed train within 48?

[all pro]

I think this thread wins the prize for the most bro science in one thread for 2009.
Let's start with the basics. There are 3 different types of speed.
1) Maximum speed. Requires RFD, rate of force development and absolute strength, 1 rep max. These are best developed in the 3-5 rep range. Typically 3 sets of 3 reps at 90% of a 1 rep max.
2) Starting speed, also called 'explosive'. Power cleans or other explosive olympic lifts will improve this quality.
3) Reversible speed also called mobility, the ability to turn on a dime or reverse direction RIGHT NOW. Best developed with plyometrics.