PT Ques: Are Lats Considered Back or Shoulders?

[J.X]

Personal Trainer's to a client/customer, do you consider training Lat's as a back exercise or a shoulder exercise?

I have heard some athlete's calling them shoulders but when I look up programs for myself, they are listed as back?

Please clarify/your thoughts or professional opionion.

ty!!

[Macrobolic]

Latissimus Dorsi is considered a back muscle.

The shoulder is a group of 3 muscles (anterior, medial, and posterior). The lats are not part of those (although the posterior delt head does get some residual work from back exercises and visa versa).

[hublife]

This ^^^^^^^

[trulyhuge1]

Well said above.
I ALWAYS work lats as back. When I train people, I like to use a pulldown movement (preferrably reverse grip as it helps the lower lats more), a rowing movement, such as a barbell row, a cable row w/ a straight bar for the upper back, and either deadlifts or hyperextensions for the lower lumbar. Every area hit. I either hit rear delts w/ back or delts....depends.

[SophieM]

Technically, the lats work the back as well as the shoulders, depending on which definition of shoulder you are using.

[askthetrainer]

Ask Dorian what he thinks




I think the confusion arises because of the trapezeus which is considered the upper shoulders and mid to upper back.

[Macrobolic]

Originally Posted by SophieM

Technically, the lats work the back as well as the shoulders, depending on which definition of shoulder you are using.

um, no. The lats don't "work" the shoulders. They are different muscles entirely. Like I said in my post above, when you workout back, you will get residual work from your rear delts, and when you work rear delts, you get residual work in your upper/middle back. But the lats are a BACK muscle.

Let's look at another example, biceps. Your biceps do get residual work when doing exercise for back. Does this mean that your biceps are now a back muscle? No.

[jamezgt]

Let's look at another example, biceps. Your biceps do get residual work when doing exercise for back. Does this mean that your biceps are now a back muscle? No.

Lol - that made me laugh. Good point.

Personally, I would say the lats are considered the back (even though they do connect to the medial side of the humerus). The lats do: shoulder adduction, extension, and alittle bit of medial rotation. The deltoids do: abduction, flexion (anterior), hyperextension (posterior). The way I was taught was the posterior deltoid only gets recruited in HYPERextension. But to answer the question again, lats = back.

[SophieM]

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

um, no. The lats don't "work" the shoulders. They are different muscles entirely. Like I said in my post above, when you workout back, you will get residual work from your rear delts, and when you work rear delts, you get residual work in your upper/middle back. But the lats are a BACK muscle.

The lats work both, as stated here.

Originally Posted by jamezgt

Personally, I would say the lats are considered the back (even though they do connect to the medial side of the humerus). The lats do: shoulder adduction, extension, and alittle bit of medial rotation. The deltoids do: abduction, flexion (anterior), hyperextension (posterior). The way I was taught was the posterior deltoid only gets recruited in HYPERextension. But to answer the question again, lats = back.

All I was doing was saying that depending on what the person meant by "shoulder," that lats could be considered a shoulder muscle as well.

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

Let's look at another example, biceps. Your biceps do get residual work when doing exercise for back. Does this mean that your biceps are now a back muscle? No.

No because their origin and insertion do not cross the back, whereas the lats span the shoulder AND back. Do you not see the difference?

[monstermn]

Wow this is a surprise. The only shoulder/back confusion I ever hear of is with the traps.

[Macrobolic]

Originally Posted by SophieM

The lats work both, as stated here.

What are you saying? Muscles do not work other muscles. Exercise work muscles.

All I was doing was saying that depending on what the person meant by "shoulder," that lats could be considered a shoulder muscle as well.

No, they can't. They are not a deltoid muscle. You find me a reference that says that the latissimus dorsi are a deltoid muscle. Go ahead, try.

No because their origin and insertion do not cross the back, whereas the lats span the shoulder AND back. Do you not see the difference?

Um, the origins are the spinous process T7 to L5 (the vertabrae it attaches to) which oddly enough are the same ones that many other BACK muscles are attached to, and the insertion is on the lesser tubercle of the humerus.

You know what else attaches there? The pec major, teres major (a back muscle), infraspinatus, the biceps, the triceps, coracobrachialis, and the brachioradialis.

Now, because they insert on the humerus, near the muscles of the deltoid, does this mean all of those are also should muscles? No, it doesn't. Your argument is flawed. If you've already taken it, you need a refresher course in human anatomy.

[SophieM]

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

No, they can't. They are not a deltoid muscle. You find me a reference that says that the latissimus dorsi are a deltoid muscle. Go ahead, try.

I never said they were a deltoid muscle. I said they worked the shoulder joint. The delts aren't the only shoulder muscles. Can we at least define what we are meaning when we say "shoulder joint" as I am talking about the glenohumeral joint, not just the delts.

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

Um, the origins are the spinous process T7 to L5 (the vertabrae it attaches to) which oddly enough are the same ones that many other BACK muscles are attached to, and the insertion is on the lesser tubercle of the humerus.

You know what else attaches there? The pec major, teres major (a back muscle), infraspinatus, the biceps, the triceps, coracobrachialis, and the brachioradialis.

Now, because they insert on the humerus, near the muscles of the deltoid, does this mean all of those are also should muscles? No, it doesn't. Your argument is flawed. If you've already taken it, you need a refresher course in human anatomy.

From my Kinesiology class. List of shoulder joint muscles
lats
delts
pec major
rotator cuff muscles
teres major
coracobrachialis
biceps brachaii
triceps brachaii

From the ACSM. List of shoulder joint muscles
pec major
rotator cuff muscles
coracobrachialis
biceps brachaii
triceps brachaiidelts
lats
teres major

So, since the ACSM is wrong, and the textbook used in my kinesiology class, you should really call them and set them straight.
~~~~
Not arguing that they are considered a back muscle but I do see why some would say they are a shoulder muscle.

[Macrobolic]

Originally Posted by SophieM

I never said they were a deltoid muscle. I said they worked the shoulder joint. The delts aren't the only shoulder muscles. Can we at least define what we are meaning when we say "shoulder joint" as I am talking about the glenohumeral joint, not just the delts.

From my Kinesiology class. List of shoulder joint muscles
lats
delts
pec major
rotator cuff muscles
teres major
coracobrachialis
biceps brachaii
triceps brachaii

From the ACSM. List of shoulder joint muscles
pec major
rotator cuff muscles
coracobrachialis
biceps brachaii
triceps brachaiidelts
lats
teres major

So, since the ACSM is wrong, and the textbook used in my kinesiology class, you should really call them and set them straight.

You are thinking of this incrrectly. They ATTACH to the humerus (which is part of the shoulder joint). This does not mean that they are a shoulder muscle.


And your first post said that the latissimus dorsi muscle works the shoulders (of which everyone here thought you meant the deltoid muscles). That was incorrect, and that is what I was arguing.

The latissimus dorsi is a muscle of the back, even though its insertion is at the glenohumeral joint. This does not mean it is a "shoulder" muscle. When you say this, people think that you are saying it is a deltoid muscle, which it clearly is not.

[Macrobolic]

Looking at this another way...



...you can see that almost the entirety of the muscle spans the back. This alone should be proof that the lats are a muscle of that back.

[SophieM]

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

You are thinking of this incrrectly. They ATTACH to the humerous (which is part of the shoulder joint). This does not mean that they are a shoulder muscle.

So, the ACSM is wrong and the kinesiology book is wrong because both explicitly have it under the heading of shoulder joint muscle.

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

And your first post said that the latissimus dorsi muscle works the shoulders (of which everyone here thought you meant the deltoid muscles). That was incorrect, and that is what I was arguing.

"Shoulders" does not equal "delts" as I said in my last post. The delts are not the only shoulder joint muscles.

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

The latissimus dorsi is a muscle of the back, even though its insertion is at the glenohumeral joint. This does not mean it is a "shoulder" muscle. When you say this, people think that you are saying it is a deltoid muscle, which it clearly is not.

The lats may be on the back, but they primarily work at the shoulder joint. Quoting from the ACSM Resources for the Personal Trainer (2nd edition)

"The latissimus dorsi is a strong extensor, internal rotator, and adductor of the glenohumeral joint." (pg.138)

"Additionally, the latissimus dorsi, which is usually considered a muscle that acts on the shoulder, extends and stabilizes the lumbar spine through its attachment to the thoracolumbar fascia." (pg 172)

[J.X]

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

Looking at this another way...

..you can see that almost the entirety of the muscle spans the back. This alone should be proof that the lats are a muscle of that back.

Man - I feel really bad about asking this question, everyone seems to be arguing a bit!!........sorry...........lol

But I am not a "Trainer" and from what I am reading it appears the general agreement (regardless of attachments, movements, guidelines ACSM/ACE that were referenced) is that the Lats are considered Back muscles regardless of whatever was taught or listed in these books (just from what I am gathering here)

and looking at the diagram attached the above quote - I would say I am "seeing" back.

What was interesting to me is I did not mention the traps but that was a great point, I guess due to attachments, etc.

Everyone here did a great job and I really appreciate the clarification. I am doing pull-ups and considering it as I have been as part of my back routine.

THANK YOU!!!!!......................

[Jbonito]

Im frustrated just reading this thread haha....Macrobolic I give you credit for trying this long..

[Macrobolic]

Originally Posted by SophieM

So, the ACSM is wrong and the kinesiology book is wrong because both explicitly have it under the heading of shoulder joint muscle.

"Shoulders" does not equal "delts" as I said in my last post. The delts are not the only shoulder joint muscles.

The lats may be on the back, but they primarily work at the shoulder joint. Quoting from the ACSM Resources for the Personal Trainer (2nd edition)

"The latissimus dorsi is a strong extensor, internal rotator, and adductor of the glenohumeral joint." (pg.138)

"Additionally, the latissimus dorsi, which is usually considered a muscle that acts on the shoulder, extends and stabilizes the lumbar spine through its attachment to the thoracolumbar fascia." (pg 172)

Your first post said

Originally Posted by SophieM

Technically, the lats work the back as well as the shoulders, depending on which definition of shoulder you are using.

Even if you didn't mean it like this, what this lead everyone else to think is that you were saying that the latissimus dorsi is considered a deltoid muscle, that if you are going to do exercises for the lats, it should be on "shoulder day".

And I have stated time and time again in this thread that it is a muscle that inserts in the shoulder joint. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS A SHOULDER MUSCLE. If that was the case, the biceps, triceps, and pec major muscles would all be shoulder muscles as well. We know that's not the case.

When you say I am going to go work shoulders, what does that mean? It means you are going to work the deltoid muscles or more commonly known as the "shoulder" muscles. This is what the thread was about!

The books you are refering to are correct, because the muscle is one that attaches to the glenohumeral joint. So I'm not contradicting what they say, I think that you just don't understand what the original poster's question actually meant.

[hublife]

LMFAO @ anyone who thinks that the "Lats" are part of the shoulder grouping of muscles. I don't care what your stupid text book says. The guy above me sums it up spot on. The OP had a simple question that required a simple answer.

[Macrobolic]

Originally Posted by Jbonito

Im frustrated just reading this thread haha....Macrobolic I give you credit for trying this long..

Thank you. I think it's that she just didn't understand what the OP's question actually was.

[SophieM]

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

And I have stated time and time again in this thread that it is a muscle that inserts in the shoulder joint. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS A SHOULDER MUSCLE. If that was the case, the biceps, triceps, and pec major muscles would all be shoulder muscles as well. We know that's not the case.

As I said, it depends on what you mean by shoulder. If you're considering the delts the muscles of the shoulders, and ONLY the delts, then of course it's not a shoulder muscle. But if you consider any muscle that moves the glenohumeral joint, a shoulder muscle, then they are.

I don't think it's that we're disagree so much as we are using two different definitions of the shoulder.

Originally Posted by Macrobolic

When you say I am going to go work shoulders, what does that mean? It means you are going to work the deltoid muscles or more commonly known as the "shoulder" muscles. This is what the thread was about!

The books you are refering to are correct, because the muscle is one that attaches to the glenohumeral joint. So I'm not contradicting what they say, I think that you just don't understand what the original poster's question actually meant.

No, I understood it. I was just trying to give an explanation as to why some people may consider it a shoulder muscle, as I believe I have already said.

[BSCSCS]

Originally Posted by SophieM

As I said, it depends on what you mean by shoulder. If you're considering the delts the muscles of the shoulders, and ONLY the delts, then of course it's not a shoulder muscle. But if you consider any muscle that moves the glenohumeral joint, a shoulder muscle, then they are.

I don't think it's that we're disagree so much as we are using two different definitions of the shoulder.



No, I understood it. I was just trying to give an explanation as to why some people may consider it a shoulder muscle, as I believe I have already said.

Do you consider the medial deltoid an "arm muscle"??? Do you consider the biceps brachialis "forearm muscles"?

[trance__dreamer]

Originally Posted by jamezgt

Lol - that made me laugh. Good point.

Personally, I would say the lats are considered the back (even though they do connect to the medial side of the humerus). The lats do: shoulder adduction, extension, and alittle bit of medial rotation. The deltoids do: abduction, flexion (anterior), hyperextension (posterior). The way I was taught was the posterior deltoid only gets recruited in HYPERextension. But to answer the question again, lats = back.

^^ my thoughts exactly.

[flexapeal]

Lats are a back exercise........the end.

[SophieM]

Originally Posted by BSCSCS

Do you consider the medial deltoid an "arm muscle"??? Do you consider the biceps brachialis "forearm muscles"?

Originally Posted by SophieM

Not arguing that they [lats] are considered a back muscle but I do see why some would say they are a shoulder muscle.

Similarly, I can see why some would call biceps a forearm muscle, as it does help flex the elbow joint. Would I call it a forearm muscle? No, just as I said that I agree that the lats are considered a back muscle.

I don't know understand why this is so controversial? I learned this in my kinesiology class and the ACSM confirmed what I learned in class.

[hublife]

Originally Posted by SophieM

Similarly, I can see why some would call biceps a forearm muscle, as it does help flex the elbow joint. Would I call it a forearm muscle? No, just as I said that I agree that the lats are considered a back muscle.

I don't know understand why this is so controversial? I learned this in my kinesiology class and the ACSM confirmed what I learned in class.

I sincerely hope you're not someones trainer. This woman asked an incredibly basic question and you turned it into an opportunity to show what a genius you are by arguing that the lats are part of the shoulder blah blah blah. No one cares. She just wanted to know if she should do pull ups on the same day that she does back.

The question has been answered. Save the brown nosing for the college professors.

[SophieM]

Originally Posted by hublife

I sincerely hope you're not someones trainer. This woman asked an incredibly basic question and you turned it into an opportunity to show what a genius you are by arguing that the lats are part of the shoulder blah blah blah. No one cares. She just wanted to know if she should do pull ups on the same day that she does back.

The question has been answered. Save the brown nosing for the college professors.

She asked for clarification and opinions, of which I gave. I have said MULTIPLE times that I consider them a back muscle. She also said some people consider them part of the shoulder and I was offering a reason as to why that might be.

I wasn't trying to "show what a genius" I am am or brown nose. This is just how I think about things. Sorry if being able to see things from both sides and having a differing opinion and viewpoint is frowned upon here.

[Simmo0508]

Sophie, when people talk training their lats and shoulders etc. they aren't talking about joints, they're talking about muscle.

The lats are a back muscle, and they are trained on "back day" (if you even know what body part splits are, when it comes to program design). They are not traditionally trained on a "shoulder day".

People train lats when they do their rows, their deadlifts etc. all being back exercises.

When dealing with clients, like the OP was referring to, next to nobody talks about joints when it comes to "what they're training today". Nobody gives a fu.ck about insertions and all that sh.it. Well clients don't, when they're typically asking a basic question.

[SophieM]

Originally Posted by J.X

I have heard some athlete's calling them shoulders.....

I was offering a reason for that. ^^ As I've said many times now. I don't know why I'm still getting jumped on.

[trance__dreamer]

Originally Posted by SophieM

I was offering a reason for that. ^^ As I've said many times now. I don't know why I'm still getting jumped on.

pple love to argue on t3h 1nt3rw3bz. =(