M4 failed US. Troops.

ntallyfl · 10-12-2009, 04:55 AM

Brought to you by the same people who reported the "assault rifles" cache in Pakistan when it was all shotguns.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091011/D9B8SUPO0.html

iccyman001 · 10-12-2009, 05:06 AM

I hate our m4s they are all peices of crap. Just my 2 cents.

-LJ- · 10-12-2009, 05:10 AM

Seems like the failures were all related to overheating. It is a smaller rifle and I would have thought it will overheat well before a M16 under sustained fire?

It mentioned the US Special Forces were upgrading to new carbines. Does anyone know what they're upgrading to?

ntallyfl · 10-12-2009, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iccyman001

I hate our m4s they are all peices of crap. Just my 2 cents.

What kind of rifle is that in your avatar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by -LJ-

Seems like the failures were all related to overheating. It is a smaller rifle and I would have thought it will overheat well before a M16 under sustained fire?

It mentioned the US Special Forces were upgrading to new carbines. Does anyone know what they're upgrading to?

An M-4 is an improvement of the M-16 with a shorter barrel. Never the less, it's not for sustained full-auto, nor is the 249 for that matter. If you're going to shoot full-auto that much, you really need an M-60.

But, yeah, your rifle's going to fail if you're shooting full-auto that much. I've never seen a barrel turn "white hot", remember steel melts and/or you can weld when it's red-yellow, white is even hotter, that's when you're burning it off.

illriginalized · 10-12-2009, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iccyman001

I hate our m4s they are all peices of crap. Just my 2 cents.

You know that's what a gun shop owner told me but totally slipped my mind to ask him why.

Can someone enlighten me? I really wanted to purchase one but I was pretty much advised not to waste my time nor money.

ntallyfl · 10-12-2009, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illriginalized

You know that's what a gun shop owner told me but totally slipped my mind to ask him why.

Can someone enlighten me? I really wanted to purchase one but I was pretty much advised not to waste my time nor money.

If I had to give the answer I think is best, it's that damm charging handle! You can't cycle your weapon unless you take it off target, reaching for an awkward position and pull it to the rear. When you can keep your rifle on target, reach up the the right (sorry lefties) and pull the bolt the rear and release, you have a much better chance of re-engaging the target quicker and more effectively.

I've proved this over and over.

Additionally, I think the forward assist is a joke.

-LJ- · 10-12-2009, 05:48 AM

The article suggested that the soldier fire off 12 clips of ammunition with his M-4. No wonder it overheated.

Does the US Forces even use the M-60 anymore? Or do they use the M240Mag?

illriginalized · 10-12-2009, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntallyfl

If I had to give the answer I think is best, it's that damm charging handle! You can't cycle your weapon unless you take it off target, reaching for an awkward position and pull it to the rear. When you can keep your rifle on target, reach up the the right (sorry lefties) and pull the bolt the rear and release, you have a much better chance of re-engaging the target quicker and more effectively.

I've proved this over and over.

Additionally, I think the forward assist is a joke.

Thanks bro! I see what you're saying (familiar with similar). Maybe they'd be good just for target practice, ya?

Ultra_Magnus · 10-12-2009, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -LJ-

The article suggested that the soldier fire off 12 clips of ammunition with his M-4. No wonder it overheated.

Does the US Forces even use the M-60 anymore? Or do they use the M240Mag?

Where did he get an m-4 that takes clips? Walmart m-4?

-LJ- · 10-12-2009, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultra_Magnus

Where did he get an m-4 that takes clips? Walmart m-4?

Airsoft M-4 brah, airsoft.

RedSoxfan1978 · 10-12-2009, 06:22 AM

I have fired semi auto M4 type rifles for thousands of rounds with only a brush down the barrel and a little lube, but never cleaned them just to see if they would run. They did.

Full auto is another matter entirely.

The M4/M16 are overall excellent rifles IMO. I never lugged one in the desert but they say the sand there gets into everything anyway, no matter what you do. Is it true is is almost as fine as baby powder? Im curious.

ntallyfl · 10-12-2009, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSoxfan1978

I never lugged one in the desert but they say the sand there gets into everything anyway, no matter what you do. Is it true is is almost as fine as baby powder? Im curious.

Yes, that powder gets into everything. The one thing I remember about Saudi was waking up every morning not able to breathe out of your nose because it was full of sand boogers.

But, that powder is mostly on the top of the soil, where as the sand grains, being larger and heavier, filter lower in the soil.

One of my fondest memories was being in a sand storm, which looks worse than it really is, save the wind. The thing is, if you don't cover-up and you're out there for a long time, the sand abrades your skin.

The one thing I remember from Saudi is wearing those goggles all the time, whereas I don't see the troops in Iraq wearing them much at least on TV.

Mr.Goodtimes · 10-12-2009, 07:10 AM

im pretty sure any gun is going to fail if you run it white fcking hot. the m4 is a fine rifle, and a very good one. this sounds like somebody pushing their agenda to get rid of the thing.

I think the SCAR and ACR are really nice rifles, and slight upgrades to the m4... but just that, slight upgrades. I dont consider them anything super amazing and revolutionary like everybody cracks them up to be.

iccyman001 · 10-12-2009, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntallyfl

what kind of rifle is that in your avatar?

.

ar-15

iccyman001 · 10-12-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illriginalized

You know that's what a gun shop owner told me but totally slipped my mind to ask him why.

Can someone enlighten me? I really wanted to purchase one but I was pretty much advised not to waste my time nor money.

In my own personal experience they jam more they are not as accurate and just are all around pieces of junk that look cool.....

Its kind of like putting a body kit on a slow car...

devil_s haircut · 10-12-2009, 08:50 AM

Yes we use the M240B in place of the M60 (at least in the Army, alot of the Marines still use the M240G).

And I don't think the M4 is a terrible weapon. It did what I needed it to do. And yeah, the dust gets all over everything, and the M4 being the accurate weapon it is, it DOES need to be cleaned daily. But I think that's an advantage we have over the untrained extremists we're fighting. Very few of them actually aim, and add that to the face that most of them are using old, beat up AK's with anywhere from 2-7 MOA or worse with the old "spray and pray" method of engaging, and accuracy becomes a big plus in the U.S. military's book.

I do agree about the forward assist being a joke. I never needed to use it EVER when I had a stoppage. And it would be nice if you could charge the weapon without losing your sight picture, but that's something I've learned to live with.

2k10SS · 10-12-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iccyman001

In my own personal experience they jam more they are not as accurate and just are all around pieces of junk that look cool.....

Not sure if serious....

With a couple choice upgrades they are very accurate and reliable.

rockyl686 · 10-12-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -LJ-

Seems like the failures were all related to overheating. It is a smaller rifle and I would have thought it will overheat well before a M16 under sustained fire?

It mentioned the US Special Forces were upgrading to new carbines. Does anyone know what they're upgrading to?

fhn scar

cavymeister · 10-12-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyl686

fhn scar

iccyman001 · 10-13-2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2k10SS

Not sure if serious....

With a couple choice upgrades they are very accurate and reliable.

True.. any gun is bound to be more accurate and reilable with upgrades.
If you are issued a M4 in the military and have the chance to upgrade it then ouvbiously it will be a better gun.

Like I was stated "in my personal experience" it was....." you are going to this location at this time to do this." Here is your stock M4 goodluck....

So yes I agree a upgraded m4 will be more reliable and accurate but not everyone has the chance to upgrade the weapon.

Darren01 · 10-13-2009, 06:46 AM

Well I can tell you from first hand experience that the M4 is a fine rifle. I carry mine with me on a daily basis, and get into firefights constantly. Hell, I was in one yesterday. As long as it's cleaned, like any firearm should be, then it works just fine. Of course if you fire hundreds of rounds through it and never clean it, then it wil ljam. I clean my weapon at least 1x per day, sometimes 3-4 if Im super bored, and I've been in over 100 firefights this year alone, and have only had 1 jam with my m4, and that was due to a ****ty magazine.

Uncontested · 10-13-2009, 07:02 AM

They're also using the M-416 now in some circles.. Supposedly its as good as an AK in terms of reliability and being able to fire under terrible conditions.

**ratmonkey** · 10-13-2009, 08:52 AM

i've heard tell of marines purposely destroying m4's at the range, takes about 300 rounds of continuous fire on burst to melt the gas tube or bend the barrel.

no light weapon will stand up to sustained high rates of fire. the 249/60 have quick change barrels for this reason.

ntallyfl · 10-13-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmonkey

i've heard tell of marines purposely destroying m4's at the range, takes about 300 rounds of continuous fire on burst to melt the gas tube or bend the barrel.

no light weapon will stand up to sustained high rates of fire. the 249/60 have quick change barrels for this reason.

Wouldn't full-auto (continuous) on any AK have the same effect on the barrel? The barrels on an AK aren't made of better steel.

Nagalfar · 10-13-2009, 10:00 AM

...5.56 cover is only 7.62 concealment..

**ratmonkey** · 10-13-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntallyfl

Wouldn't full-auto (continuous) on any AK have the same effect on the barrel? The barrels on an AK aren't made of better steel.

an ak is also a light arm.

otisthebat · 10-13-2009, 02:05 PM

my army buddy melted an M249 barrel once. i dont remember how many rounds he put through it.

devil_s haircut · 10-14-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren01

Well I can tell you from first hand experience that the M4 is a fine rifle. I carry mine with me on a daily basis, and get into firefights constantly. Hell, I was in one yesterday. As long as it's cleaned, like any firearm should be, then it works just fine. Of course if you fire hundreds of rounds through it and never clean it, then it wil ljam. I clean my weapon at least 1x per day, sometimes 3-4 if Im super bored, and I've been in over 100 firefights this year alone, and have only had 1 jam with my m4, and that was due to a ****ty magazine.

I'm pretty sure I know where you are. My old sector, if I'm not mistaken. You relieved 1ID guys right? If that's the case, have fun there. It was mostly quiet for the first part of my deployment, but it started picking put before we moved sectors. Of course, we were undermanned and there were areas we couldn't go with only 15 guys, but we made due. Keep your head down regardless.

Anyway, back to the discussion...

PowerPeanut · 10-14-2009, 11:57 AM

223 has higher overbore than a 762.39. The 223 has a .224 bullet with approx 25-27 gr of powder.
A 762.39 in the Ak has a .311 bullet with about 25-28 gr of powder.

The 223 is still in the safe zone, but the 30 cal with the same charge may be slower, but much easier on barrels. Makes a big difference after 12 magazines.
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com...ng-definition/

That and

Darren01 · 10-15-2009, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devil_s haircut

I'm pretty sure I know where you are. My old sector, if I'm not mistaken. You relieved 1ID guys right? If that's the case, have fun there. It was mostly quiet for the first part of my deployment, but it started picking put before we moved sectors. Of course, we were undermanned and there were areas we couldn't go with only 15 guys, but we made due. Keep your head down regardless.

Anyway, back to the discussion...

Well, my battalion relieved 1ID, but my company was attached to a different battalion, so we are in a different area. We relieved 101st. Im in Logar province. Thats as specific as i can get. It's like the wild wild west out here. The exact area Im in, we are the first Americans to ever be here.