Keto Diet and health?

[KLMARB]

Originally Posted by jaim91

As long as you're eating fats with those protein meals, the insulin will be controlled. It's about Glycemic LOAD, not INDEX of individual foods.

And unless you're in a caloric excess, it's really hard for an abundance of protein via a high protein diet to make you fat....

Take Lyle McD's rapid fat loss diet...it's 100% lean protein, and you lose weight on it...doesn't sound counterproductive to me...

Hey Jaim! I understand where you're coming from. I'm basing my assertion from the insulinogenic reaction of excess protein, in terms of total calories. I should have added the caveat of caloric intake. I've been doing this so long without counting calories (and still having a slow compositional change) that I forget that others are doing so....

[ksh937]

Originally Posted by jaim91

As long as you're eating fats with those protein meals, the insulin will be controlled. It's about Glycemic LOAD, not INDEX of individual foods.

And unless you're in a caloric excess, it's really hard for an abundance of protein via a high protein diet to make you fat....

Take Lyle McD's rapid fat loss diet...it's 100% lean protein, and you lose weight on it...doesn't sound counterproductive to me...

Yeah, I'm definitely eating fats with my protein meals although some are pretty lean (dinner, for example, is usually just chicken and vegetables... but breakfast and lunch as well as snacks always have fat). I'm definitely eating at a caloric deficit. I think, given my weight, height, age, and bf %, I should be around 2400-2600 calories per day, but I'm hovering around 1900 now.

[jaim91]

Originally Posted by KLMARB

Hey Jaim! I understand where you're coming from. I'm basing my assertion from the insulinogenic reaction of excess protein, in terms of total calories. I should have added the caveat of caloric intake. I've been doing this so long without counting calories (and still having a slow compositional change) that I forget that others are doing so....

Excess protein will only be excreted as byproduct or stored in the amino acid pool for muscle use later on. I do believe the insulinogenic comes from the quantity of protein in and off it self, but on a keto diet, rarely do you have it by itself...

Maybe the compositional change is slow because you're not counting cals

Originally Posted by ksh937

Yeah, I'm definitely eating fats with my protein meals although some are pretty lean (dinner, for example, is usually just chicken and vegetables... but breakfast and lunch as well as snacks always have fat). I'm definitely eating at a caloric deficit. I think, given my weight, height, age, and bf %, I should be around 2400-2600 calories per day, but I'm hovering around 1900 now.

Awesome!

[KLMARB]

Originally Posted by jaim91

Excess protein will only be excreted as byproduct or stored in the amino acid pool for muscle use later on. I do believe the insulinogenic comes from the quantity of protein in and off it self, but on a keto diet, rarely do you have it by itself...

Maybe the compositional change is slow because you're not counting cals



Awesome!

Yeah, I'm sure that its a part of it, since I'm no longer insulin resistant. I'm still adding muscle/strength/size, though. I had a knee injury that slowed me down for nine months, but since last Nov, I'm down another 40 lbs. and have gone from pants size 42 to 36...Around 200+ lbs. of fat loss over the last few years, without really tracking calories. I've a couple years to play with, since I'm not planning on competing before age 50.....

[ksh937]

So I've tried searching this site and Google, but I can't find what I'm looking for.

Can someone please link me to an article or research that shows/suggests eating eggs is not bad for you (i.e. eating such large amounts of cholesterol)? Also, can someone link any articles about saturated fats being "good" for you, as the keto diet claims? Everything on Google says Saturated Fats = BAD.

Thanks!

[cfh1973]

Originally Posted by ksh937

So I've tried searching this site and Google, but I can't find what I'm looking for.

Can someone please link me to an article or research that shows/suggests eating eggs is not bad for you (i.e. eating such large amounts of cholesterol)? Also, can someone link any articles about saturated fats being "good" for you, as the keto diet claims? Everything on Google says Saturated Fats = BAD.

Thanks!

http://www.preventionisbest.com/site/saturatedfat.html

[redheadlaw7]

There is much discussion about this going on the "keto for women" thread. Check out some of the more recent pages.

[marty6001]

Originally Posted by redheadlaw7

There is much discussion about this going on the "keto for women" thread. Check out some of the more recent pages.

So elitist you keto women are!! hehe, its an awesome thread, my wife was skimming through it the other day just to see some ideas.. shes 5'7" 139 (and thats 5 months pregnant) but is a fitness hound and loves to hear new ideas..

[redheadlaw7]

Originally Posted by marty6001

So elitist you keto women are!! hehe, its an awesome thread, my wife was skimming through it the other day just to see some ideas.. shes 5'7" 139 (and thats 5 months pregnant) but is a fitness hound and loves to hear new ideas..

Give her a big female keto hug and tell her best of luck with the pregnancy!!!

[Eileen]

Originally Posted by ksh937

So I've tried searching this site and Google, but I can't find what I'm looking for.

Can someone please link me to an article or research that shows/suggests eating eggs is not bad for you (i.e. eating such large amounts of cholesterol)? Also, can someone link any articles about saturated fats being "good" for you, as the keto diet claims? Everything on Google says Saturated Fats = BAD.

Thanks!

Actually, take a good read of the Framingham study, one of the longest in history, they found that risk of heart disease corresponded with liquid vegetable oil, not saturated fat.

Think about. Throughout history, humans have hunted and eaten animals full of saturated fat (and you can bet that they didn't go looking for the skinny low fat ones, they always tried to get the big fat one), but heart disease only became an issue when we started refining our grains, eating sugar and using processed vegetable fats.

[ksh937]

Originally Posted by Eileen

Actually, take a good read of the Framingham study, one of the longest in history, they found that risk of heart disease corresponded with liquid vegetable oil, not saturated fat.

Think about. Throughout history, humans have hunted and eaten animals full of saturated fat (and you can bet that they didn't go looking for the skinny low fat ones, they always tried to get the big fat one), but heart disease only became an issue when we started refining our grains, eating sugar and using processed vegetable fats.

I work at a very famous hospital that is renowned for its cardiac expertise. I showed some of the doctors the article on Saturated Fats and the Framingham Study and they thought I was crazy. They said that keto diets may be effective in the short-term, but they have significant long-term risks. They stressed the need, over the long-term, to keep saturated fats, cholesterol and sodium to a relatively low level.

I don't want to start a massive e-message board war, but just wanted to share what some doctors thought. I'm sure 99% of those on this board disagree.

Don't shoot the messenger!

[Atavis]

Originally Posted by ksh937

I work at a very famous hospital that is renowned for its cardiac expertise. I showed some of the doctors the article on Saturated Fats and the Framingham Study and they thought I was crazy. They said that keto diets may be effective in the short-term, but they have significant long-term risks. They stressed the need, over the long-term, to keep saturated fats, cholesterol and sodium to a relatively low level.

I don't want to start a massive e-message board war, but just wanted to share what some doctors thought. I'm sure 99% of those on this board disagree.

Don't shoot the messenger!

Did they back it up with science? Just wondering.

[ksh937]

Originally Posted by Atavis

Did they back it up with science? Just wondering.

Yes. They mentioned that they have heard of this school of thought and how it has been gaining in followers recently. But they stated that the research and studies show that diets high in saturated fats increases the risk of heart disease and poor cardiovascular health. They said there simply hasn't been any substantial or conclusive evidence to prove saturated fats do not cause these increased risks.

[ferak]

Originally Posted by ksh937

Yes. They mentioned that they have heard of this school of thought and how it has been gaining in followers recently. But they stated that the research and studies show that diets high in saturated fats increases the risk of heart disease and poor cardiovascular health. They said there simply hasn't been any substantial or conclusive evidence to prove saturated fats do not cause these increased risks.

Keto is not a school of thought or a philosophy why do you keep trying to play it off as some kind of opinion we all seem to be following? Also you're trying to use doctors are your credibility for why keto is bad when none of them know anything about it other than studies they read? Most the studies out there combine sat fats with trans fats giving sat a bad rep, which is why they are saying that there isn't much evidence out there on the matter. You seriously just seem to have an agenda out against keto.

[ksh937]

Originally Posted by ferak

Keto is not a school of thought or a philosophy why do you keep trying to play it off as some kind of opinion we all seem to be following? Also you're trying to use doctors are your credibility for why keto is bad when none of them know anything about it other than studies they read? Most the studies out there combine sat fats with trans fats giving sat a bad rep, which is why they are saying that there isn't much evidence out there on the matter. You seriously just seem to have an agenda out against keto.

I don't have an agenda against Keto. As I mentioned before, I am trying to understand and learn as much as I can to determine whether it's right for me. I was intrigued by some of the literature I first read, but after doing some additional research on my own, I'm pretty sure that it's not for me. I have some questions that are still unanswered (like evidence or data that saturated fat alone is good for you, as I asked a few posts ago) which is why I'm still on this thread.

For the record, I mentioned to these doctors the association of saturated fats with trans fats, and they replied that saturated fats alone are still not good for you. I sent them all the information I've compiled from this message board, articles and other sources on Keto. These are some of the nation's most well-known cardiologists; I think they know what they are talking about.

[Eileen]

Originally Posted by ksh937

I work at a very famous hospital that is renowned for its cardiac expertise. I showed some of the doctors the article on Saturated Fats and the Framingham Study and they thought I was crazy. They said that keto diets may be effective in the short-term, but they have significant long-term risks. They stressed the need, over the long-term, to keep saturated fats, cholesterol and sodium to a relatively low level.

How long term before you start getting these dangerous results? I had a full physical after eight years of keto, and everything was perfect. Actually, they looked hard at my blood results, they don't often see HDL the same level as LDL.

[KLMARB]

Originally Posted by ksh937

Yes. They mentioned that they have heard of this school of thought and how it has been gaining in followers recently. But they stated that the research and studies show that diets high in saturated fats increases the risk of heart disease and poor cardiovascular health. They said there simply hasn't been any substantial or conclusive evidence to prove saturated fats do not cause these increased risks.

Typical, mainly because of the high level (relative to keto) of carbs present in those studies. Generally, in my opinion, they simply do not pay enough attention to the macronutrient ratio, let alone the optimization of glucagon (vs. insulin) as a relevant component of "mainstream" i.e. NAD based studies...

[ksh937]

Another question I had, which I couldn't seem to find the answer to, is this:

If it takes a few days to get your body into ketosis, but you carb up once a week, aren't you only in ketosis for 3-4 days? Is that enough for ketosis to be effective?

[Eileen]

Originally Posted by ksh937

Another question I had, which I couldn't seem to find the answer to, is this:

If it takes a few days to get your body into ketosis, but you carb up once a week, aren't you only in ketosis for 3-4 days? Is that enough for ketosis to be effective?

It takes a few days to get into ketosis the first time, which is why you don't carb-up for two weeks. After that, it normally takes less than two days. Ideally, a keto/carb cycle of around 9 days would probably be most effective, but people like carbing on the weekend, so they go for the shorter cycle.

[ferak]

Originally Posted by ksh937

I don't have an agenda against Keto. As I mentioned before, I am trying to understand and learn as much as I can to determine whether it's right for me. I was intrigued by some of the literature I first read, but after doing some additional research on my own, I'm pretty sure that it's not for me. I have some questions that are still unanswered (like evidence or data that saturated fat alone is good for you, as I asked a few posts ago) which is why I'm still on this thread.

For the record, I mentioned to these doctors the association of saturated fats with trans fats, and they replied that saturated fats alone are still not good for you. I sent them all the information I've compiled from this message board, articles and other sources on Keto. These are some of the nation's most well-known cardiologists; I think they know what they are talking about.

Strong appeal to authority. Being a cardiologist does not mean they understand the relationship between food and cardiac health. I spent 20 seconds googleing cardiologists and nutrition and found this http://www.nutritionj.com/content/2/1/19. Physicians do not receive the training or knowledge in school that would make them a valid authority on the subject.

[carbotoo]

Originally Posted by ferak

Strong appeal to authority. Being a cardiologist does not mean they understand the relationship between food and cardiac health. I spent 20 seconds googleing cardiologists and nutrition and found this http://www.nutritionj.com/content/2/1/19. Physicians do not receive the training or knowledge in school that would make them a valid authority on the subject.

except that dr. robert atkins was a cardiologist who did put 2 and 2 together. and the south beach diet was designed by a......cardiologist, arthur agatston and nutritionist marie almon. weight loss was a by-product, not the goal.

this guy is changing the way the medical establishment will think about nutrition in 5 years;
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/ma...tml?sec=health

doctors + big pharma =
http://www.wellnessresources.com/fre...amp=news061908

remember those old commercials where they used doctors to promote smoking?

[ferak]

Originally Posted by carbotoo

except that dr. robert atkins was a cardiologist who did put 2 and 2 together. and the south beach diet was designed by a......cardiologist, arthur agatston and nutritionist marie almon. weight loss was a by-product, not the goal.

this guy is changing the way the medical establishment will think about nutrition in 5 years;
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/ma...tml?sec=health

doctors + big pharma =
http://www.wellnessresources.com/fre...amp=news061908

remember those old commercials where they used doctors to promote smoking?

Atkins modified a diet he read about he didn't just put two and two together and stumble upon a ketogenic diet. There are cardiologists and physicians that study and educate themselves on nutrition, that does not mean that they all are experienced on the subject. The doctors ksh referred to based their opinions on some studies they read or heard about.

[cfh1973]

Also, don't they base a lot of this stuff on inactive individuals? Most of us here are hard working in the gym and burn up most of what we eat in a week. Plus, if you are doing cardio, wouldn't you be counteracting the cardiovascular affects of eating a high fat diet? Just seems to make sense to me.

[ksh937]

Originally Posted by Eileen

It takes a few days to get into ketosis the first time, which is why you don't carb-up for two weeks. After that, it normally takes less than two days. Ideally, a keto/carb cycle of around 9 days would probably be most effective, but people like carbing on the weekend, so they go for the shorter cycle.

Thanks. I bought some ketostix last night and tried one before bed. I got a color that matched "Moderate". So even with my 60% protein, 35% fat, 5% carb split, I'm still getting into ketosis.

Originally Posted by carbotoo

this guy is changing the way the medical establishment will think about nutrition in 5 years;
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/ma...tml?sec=health

Thanks for the article, I will read it sometime this weekend. On a side note, and ranking pretty high on the unintentional comedy scale, this article was published in 2002 so "in 5 years" would make that 2007, or 2 years ago. lol!

[klir_2m]

Originally Posted by mygame11

I am having a hard time understanding the healthiness of this diet. It seems rather artery clogging and well, just very unhealthy. High cholesterol, high saturated fat and medium to high sodium diet.
I do not see how this can be healthy, even if it does work.
Does anyone have any info to help me understand this better? I would appreciate it.

Here ya go:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/88/4/1617.pdf

If you don't like reading, I'll summarize it for you quickly.

The study tracked 42 moderately obese females over six months. Major health indicators such as LDL levels and blood pressure were determined for each participant and were all within normal range of each other. These indicators were tracked weekly over the six month study.

Between the 42 females, 22 were put on a low carb diet and 20 on a low fat diet. Here's the kicker: the low-fat diet was planned within American Heart Association recommendations with an enforced calorie restriction; the low-carb diet was unplanned and subjects were not asked to restrict calories, but only to restrict carbs (bolded for awesome).

At the end of the six month study, "The very low carbohydrate diet group lost more weight and more body fat than the low fat diet group. Mean levels of blood pressure, lipids, fasting glucose, and insulin were within normal ranges in both groups at baseline. Although all of these parameters improved over the course of the study, there were no differences observed between the two diet groups at 3 or 6 months."

So at six months, both groups saw in improvement in major health indicators, and results ended up being very similar between the two.

The major difference was that the low carb diet group lost more than twice as much weight.

The low carb diet group lost an average of 8.5 kg (18.7 pounds), 4.8 kg (10.6 lbs) of which was body fat.

The American Heart Association recommended, low fat diet group lost an average of 3.9 kg (8.6 lbs), 2.0 kg (4.4 lbs) of which was body fat.

The study concludes: "Based on these data, a very low carbohydrate diet is more effective than a low fat diet for short-term weight loss and, over 6 months, is not associated with deleterious effects on important cardiovascular risk factors in healthy women."

Hope this helps.

[carbotoo]

Originally Posted by ksh937

Thanks for the article, I will read it sometime this weekend. On a side note, and ranking pretty high on the unintentional comedy scale, this article was published in 2002 so "in 5 years" would make that 2007, or 2 years ago. lol!

yeah, mybad. this is sort of an old "standard" keto article that can dispel a lot of the keto misconceptions. i'm dumbing down if ya know what i mean. gary went on to write the definitive statement on the mythology of the low-fat, high cardio model of peak excercise called "good calorie bad calorie". thanks for nothing yo!

[ksh937]

So I'm into week 6 of my diet and workout routine (5.5 to be exact). As a refresher, I am prepping for a weeklong beach vacation at the end of week 10 so I have about 4.5 weeks to go. I'm 28, 5'10", started at 158.5 lbs and 9% bf.

I input all of my diet items into FitDay and came out with:

54% Fat
7% Carbs
39% Protein

Carbs are probably lower because it's total carbs and not net carbs (as an example, my protein bar is 11g carbs but 5g is fiber, so the website is calculating the 7% Carbs off of the 11g number). I'm at about 50g total carbs, but only 30g net carbs.

Diet consists of whole eggs, turkey bacon, olive oil, protein bars, protein shakes, tilapia w/ veggies for lunch, chicken wings for dinner (unbreaded so 0 carbs) and almonds for snacks. I'm at about 2,800 calories / day.

I now weigh 164 lbs, haven't check my bf but comparing pics, I am leaner for sure.

Workout has been heavy weights, low reps. 5-6x/week. Usually 1 pull and 1 push exercise + either abs or squats. Followed by 20 minutes of cardio (light pace, maybe 2 miles running).

Example:

Day 1
Bench 10 sets of 3 reps. High pulls 10 sets of 3 reps. Ab Wheel 5 sets to failure.

Day 2
Push jerks 10 sets of 3 reps. Shrugs 10 sets of 3 reps. Squats 10 sets of 3 reps.

I've noticed some strength gains too so I'm assuming I'm shedding bf and adding muscle? Looks like I've unintentionally gone the Keto route even though I was hesitant before (if you were reading this whole thread). Keto sticks always test positive (either Light to Moderate). I give myself 1-2 cheat windows a week (3 hours on the dot). This will be my first week of 2 cheat windows, all the other weeks have just been 1.

Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[cfh1973]

Originally Posted by ksh937

So I'm into week 6 of my diet and workout routine (5.5 to be exact). As a refresher, I am prepping for a weeklong beach vacation at the end of week 10 so I have about 4.5 weeks to go. I'm 28, 5'10", started at 158.5 lbs and 9% bf.

I input all of my diet items into FitDay and came out with:

54% Fat
7% Carbs
39% Protein

Carbs are probably lower because it's total carbs and not net carbs (as an example, my protein bar is 11g carbs but 5g is fiber, so the website is calculating the 7% Carbs off of the 11g number). I'm at about 50g total carbs, but only 30g net carbs.

Diet consists of whole eggs, turkey bacon, olive oil, protein bars, protein shakes, tilapia w/ veggies for lunch, chicken wings for dinner (unbreaded so 0 carbs) and almonds for snacks. I'm at about 2,800 calories / day.

I now weigh 164 lbs, haven't check my bf but comparing pics, I am leaner for sure.

Workout has been heavy weights, low reps. 5-6x/week. Usually 1 pull and 1 push exercise + either abs or squats. Followed by 20 minutes of cardio (light pace, maybe 2 miles running).

Example:

Day 1
Bench 10 sets of 3 reps. High pulls 10 sets of 3 reps. Ab Wheel 5 sets to failure.

Day 2
Push jerks 10 sets of 3 reps. Shrugs 10 sets of 3 reps. Squats 10 sets of 3 reps.

I've noticed some strength gains too so I'm assuming I'm shedding bf and adding muscle? Looks like I've unintentionally gone the Keto route even though I was hesitant before (if you were reading this whole thread). Keto sticks always test positive (either Light to Moderate). I give myself 1-2 cheat windows a week (3 hours on the dot). This will be my first week of 2 cheat windows, all the other weeks have just been 1.

Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

My suggestion, and I'm not trying to be rude, start your own thread with this info and you will get more answers. Hijacking someone elses thread is not cool. Plus, not many people are going to see it.

[ksh937]

That's fine, I continued this thread b/c my questions were related to the original post and I didn't want to duplicate topics, but whatever gets the most views works for me.

[mygame11]

Originally Posted by ferak

Keto is not a school of thought or a philosophy why do you keep trying to play it off as some kind of opinion we all seem to be following? Also you're trying to use doctors are your credibility for why keto is bad when none of them know anything about it other than studies they read? Most the studies out there combine sat fats with trans fats giving sat a bad rep, which is why they are saying that there isn't much evidence out there on the matter. You seriously just seem to have an agenda out against keto.

Most doctors have ABSOLUTELY no idea about nutritional health anyhow! All they do is hand out Rx's and hope to see you soon for more work..for more money...for worse health problems down the road. I have yet to find a doctor who knows a rats a$$ about nutrition and the role it truly plays on the human body....,they are clueless. They simply assume and follow what they have been told from another person...or the government (and most of us know they are far from being credible). The FDA, the government and doctors are all blindsided and DO NOT have our health in their best interest. Period.