The USA - Israel Relationship... Do you guys understand it?

[psamty]

Originally Posted by Ruhanv

I would have to disagree that the Britian of 100 years ago was a great nation. My great grandfather and his family nearly starved to death in the British consentration camps in Africa. It just doesn't give you that warm fuzzy feeling.

I would agree though that the world has benefited greatly from British colonialization but the end does not justify the means.

I agree. I didn't say they were justified. Just that they were relatively good compared to most other nations. We have to remember that we are still barbarians, civilization is happening slowly, but it hasn't happened yet.

[grup910]

There does happen to be a lot of oil in that region. ;-)

[balls2wall]

On a similar note, Why have I not heard a word of complaint from anyone, not only in this forum but in the media, on the $1.5 billion in U.S. aid approved for Egypt in 2009?

[photomasterx]

Originally Posted by balls2wall

On a similar note, Why have I not heard a word of complaint from anyone, not only in this forum but in the media, on the $1.5 billion in U.S. aid approved for Egypt in 2009?

Egypts aid is only as long as it keeps a peace deal with Israel.

So if Egypt tears up it peace deal paper it will not longer get aid.

So it could also be counted as additional aid to Israel that the US is paying countried to be friendly/peaceful towards Israel.

.

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by photomasterx

Egypts aid is only as long as it keeps a peace deal with Israel.

So if Egypt tears up it peace deal paper it will not longer get aid.

So it could also be counted as additional aid to Israel that the US is paying countried to be friendly/peaceful towards Israel.

.

this.

not to mention that an extremely valuable asset to world trade, the suez canal, is in egypt. all oil tankers that go from arab/middeastern countries to europe and east coast america go through suez canal, and all trade between india/asia and europe and east america also go through there. that aid probably contributes to protecting that.

can't say the same about israel though.

[Ruhanv]

Well said.

It's also worth noting that nearly ALL this foreign aid comes with strings attached.

For instance, the US will give X amount of dollars to a country with the caveat that 80% of it has to be spent on US companies doing various bits of development work for them.

[balls2wall]

Originally Posted by photomasterx

Egypts aid is only as long as it keeps a peace deal with Israel.

So if Egypt tears up it peace deal paper it will not longer get aid.

So it could also be counted as additional aid to Israel that the US is paying countried to be friendly/peaceful towards Israel.

.

If you think that is what deters Egypt from attacking Israel you are mistaken.

Take away the aid, see if Israel cares.

You do realize that America is providing Egypt with advanced weaponry as part of the aid, this in your opinion is in Israels favor?

[YARDGORILLA]

Originally Posted by Ruhanv

Well said.

It's also worth noting that nearly ALL this foreign aid comes with strings attached.

For instance, the US will give X amount of dollars to a country with the caveat that 80% of it has to be spent on US companies doing various bits of development work for them.

Devil is in the details.

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by balls2wall

If you think that is what deters Egypt from attacking Israel you are mistaken.

Take away the aid, see if Israel cares.

You do realize that America is providing Egypt with advanced weaponry as part of the aid, this in your opinion is in Israels favor?

it's not just to deter then from attacking.

egypt has been helping and cooperating more with israel ever since receiving that aid.

a recent example of this is when egypt purposely lied to hamas leaders that israel would not attack on the sabbath day, giving hamas a false sense of security.

egypt also did not let aid through their part of the gaza border.

[balls2wall]

Originally Posted by ZexCui

it's not just to deter then from attacking.

egypt has been helping and cooperating more with israel ever since receiving that aid.

a recent example of this is when egypt purposely lied to hamas leaders that israel would not attack on the sabbath day, giving hamas a false sense of security.

egypt also did not let aid through their part of the gaza border.

Yet they did not stop the smuggling of thousands of rockets into gaza.

You think the $1.3 billion in military aid per year
egypt has been receiving is in Israels favor?

Egypt stands to gain by cooperating with Israel, not because Us will continue aid, but because you only gain from peace with your neighbors esp in the economic aspect.

Between 1994 and 2000, the imports from Egypt to Israel reached a total of $1.606 billion. In 2001, Egypt imported goods (excluding oil and services) to Israel with a total value of $20 million, in comparison to a total of $20.7 million for 2000. Aside from oil, Egypt exports fresh vegetables, raw cotton, textiles, wood products and chemicals.

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by balls2wall

Yet they did not stop the smuggling of thousands of rockets into gaza.

You think the $1.3 billion in military aid per year
egypt has been receiving is in Israels favor?

Egypt stands to gain by cooperating with Israel, not because Us will continue aid, but because you only gain from peace with your neighbors esp in the economic aspect.

is that 1.6 billion figure annual or the total sum during that time period? a link for that data would be nice.

regardless, while israel's military dominance over egypt is enough to deter an attack, it is not a reason for egypt to cooperate at the level they have been. it's not like israel is saying to egypt "help us or we will attack!".

and yes, since the aid deal that the US has with egypt is that they must cooperate with israel, that aid is certainly in israel's favor.

anyways, even if it was in no way benefiting israel, the reason i do not complain about it is because the money to egypt would be in US interest because of that very important trade asset they have. refer to my post about the suez canal for more information on that.

however, our aid and relationship with israel is a liability because of the national security risk that it poses (islamic terrorism, 9/11, etc), and also because of the amount of jobs that are shipped to israel in the technology and medical research fields (our annual aid lets israel have a lower corporate tax rate, which causes some american companies to set up their operations in israel.)

[balls2wall]

Originally Posted by ZexCui

is that 1.6 billion figure annual or the total sum during that time period? a link for that data would be nice.

regardless, while israel's military dominance over egypt is enough to deter an attack, it is not a reason for egypt to cooperate at the level they have been. it's not like israel is saying to egypt "help us or we will attack!".

and yes, since the aid deal that the US has with egypt is that they must cooperate with israel, that aid is certainly in israel's favor.

anyways, even if it was in no way benefiting israel, the reason i do not complain about it is because the money to egypt would be in US interest because of that very important trade asset they have. refer to my post about the suez canal for more information on that.

however, our aid and relationship with israel is a liability because of the national security risk that it poses (islamic terrorism, 9/11, etc), and also because of the amount of jobs that are shipped to israel in the technology and medical research fields (our annual aid lets israel have a lower corporate tax rate, which causes some american companies to set up their operations in israel.)

article was taken from here - http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...yptisrael.html

But you can do some research you will find news on it form other sources.

Islamic terrorism root lies in Radical Islam, nowhere else.

The reason companies like intel set up shop in Israel is not due to lower tax rates. no doubt they can get work done cheaper in china. Its because Israel is home to some of the most innovative minds, which is why most high tech company will set up their research and development centers in Israel, but manufacture the products elsewhere.

Israel does not need Egypt cooperation, it is simply a beneficial thing for both sides.

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by balls2wall

article was taken from here - http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...yptisrael.html

But you can do some research you will find news on it form other sources.

Islamic terrorism root lies in Radical Islam, nowhere else.

The reason companies like intel set up shop in Israel is not due to lower tax rates. no doubt they can get work done cheaper in china. Its because Israel is home to some of the most innovative minds, which is why most high tech company will set up their research and development centers in Israel, but manufacture the products elsewhere.

Israel does not need Egypt cooperation, it is simply a beneficial thing for both sides.

al-qaeda officials have stated themselves that one of the prime motivations for the 9/11 attacks was US Support of israel. iirc, there was a poll done in iraq and possibly other middeast countries that showed that US support of israel was their number one complaint about the US. it even beat out the iraq invasion. indeed, US support of israel makes it much much easier to recruit terrorists against america.

the best universities are found in america and america's populations is about 60 times larger than israel's. there is a much larger pool of intelligent scientists, engineers, etc. in america. if it weren't for that lower tax rate these companies would set up shop in america not israel.

i never said israel needed egypt's cooperation, but it certainly helps them. if that 1.6 billion dollars in trade was just a sum total from 1994 to 2000, that would only amount to 266 million dollar a year on average, far less than the 1.5 billion that they receive annually in aid from the US.

the US says that egypt must cooperate with israel to continue receiving aid, so in that regard, that aid can be counted as aid to egypt.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by Ruhanv

There are more Jews living in the five boroughs of New York than in the state of Israel. That is a lot of votes!

All politics is local politics and supporting Israel has always been very important to winning both local and national elections in the US. If you do not support Israel unilaterally (i.e. support them regardless of whether they are right or wrong), you will struggle to be elected in the US.

To make matters worse, it is not just the Jewish vote but the evangelical Christian vote. I was having dinner the other night with a Republican friend of mine from Phoenix. His wife is also a devout Christian and they both said that they and their congregation believe that God will not bless a nation which does not unilaterally supports Israel. Theologically it is quite odd as even God didn't provide that level of unconditional support in the Old Testament.

This unconditional support has also set up this perception in the Middle East that the US is manipulated by Israel. Thus the US becomes an easy target for fundamentalists Islamic rhetoric, not all of it without merit considering the US' veto of sanctions against Israel for the development of nuclear weapons. Those vetoes have made it so difficult now for the US to get more sanctions imposed on Iran for the very same reason.

So distancing yourselves from Israel to the point where you are neutral but pro-peace, pro-two state solution, will cause much of the turmoil in the Middle East to diffuse. For as long as the US supports Israel unilaterally, there will be no peace in region.

Right wing fundamentalist Christians are actually far more likely than most American Jews to unilaterally support Israel. Remember, about 80% of US Jews voted for Obama, despite that fact that he has been far more crititical of Israel than most presidents in recent memory. Many US Jews tend to be secular, and thus have a pragmatic position on Israel. Many don't seem all that concerned with giving up the West bank etc if this creates a long term peace. The same can't be said for the Christian right in this country. Their position is based entirel on kooky religious beliefs which make then entirely inflexible on any discussion of Israel.

[balls2wall]

Originally Posted by ZexCui

al-qaeda officials have stated themselves that one of the prime motivations for the 9/11 attacks was US Support of israel. iirc, there was a poll done in iraq and possibly other middeast countries that showed that US support of israel was their number one complaint about the US. it even beat out the iraq invasion. indeed, US support of israel makes it much much easier to recruit terrorists against america.

the best universities are found in america and america's populations is about 60 times larger than israel's. there is a much larger pool of intelligent scientists, engineers, etc. in america. if it weren't for that lower tax rate these companies would set up shop in america not israel.

i never said israel needed egypt's cooperation, but it certainly helps them. if that 1.6 billion dollars in trade was just a sum total from 1994 to 2000, that would only amount to 266 million dollar a year on average, far less than the 1.5 billion that they receive annually in aid from the US.

the US says that egypt must cooperate with israel to continue receiving aid, so in that regard, that aid can be counted as aid to egypt.

Islamic terrorism will always be around, Us aid may be one current reason, but ending it wont instill value of unbelievers human life into terrorists.


The fact is,

Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U.S.

Mind you Israel only has a population of 7 million in half people.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the work force, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

More - http://www.saveisraelcampaign.com/fa...out_israel.htm

Just take a look at the recent foreign investments into Israeli company's if you need any more proof.

Tax rates have 0 to do with it, Israel is an innovative country like no other.

And again, Israel has done without egypt, and could do it again.
The cooperation is in BOTH parties best interest.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by ZexCui

al-qaeda officials have stated themselves that one of the prime motivations for the 9/11 attacks was US Support of israel. iirc, there was a poll done in iraq and possibly other middeast countries that showed that US support of israel was their number one complaint about the US. it even beat out the iraq invasion. indeed, US support of israel makes it much much easier to recruit terrorists against america.

the best universities are found in america and america's populations is about 60 times larger than israel's. there is a much larger pool of intelligent scientists, engineers, etc. in america. if it weren't for that lower tax rate these companies would set up shop in america not israel.

i never said israel needed egypt's cooperation, but it certainly helps them. if that 1.6 billion dollars in trade was just a sum total from 1994 to 2000, that would only amount to 266 million dollar a year on average, far less than the 1.5 billion that they receive annually in aid from the US.

the US says that egypt must cooperate with israel to continue receiving aid, so in that regard, that aid can be counted as aid to egypt.

Of course al-qaeda says that. And?? They say lot's of nutty crap. Are we supposed to buy all of that also? The average person in the ME is strongly influenced by the inane drivel put out by their goverments. Hell the same could be said, to a certain extent, about this country. I find it weird that people would take the crap al-qaeda puts out there at face value. Christian fundamentalists say a ton of insane crap all the time. Do you accept their comments as valid??

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by 1devil

Of course al-qaeda says that. And?? They say lot's of nutty crap. Are we supposed to buy all of that also? The average person in the ME is strongly influenced by the inane drivel put out by their goverments. Hell the same could be said, to a certain extent, about this country. I find it weird that people would take the crap al-qaeda puts out there at face value. Christian fundamentalists say a ton of insane crap all the time. Do you accept their comments as valid??

they actually demanded that we end aid before and after 9/11. they thought that after 9/11, the US would break down and give in to their demand.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by ZexCui

they actually demanded that we end aid before and after 9/11. they thought that after 9/11, the US would break down and give in to their demand.

That's really not a response to any of my points in post #46.

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by balls2wall

Islamic terrorism will always be around, Us aid may be one current reason, but ending it wont instill value of unbelievers human life into terrorists.


The fact is,

Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U.S.

Mind you Israel only has a population of 7 million in half people.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the work force, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

More - http://www.saveisraelcampaign.com/fa...out_israel.htm

Just take a look at the recent foreign investments into Israeli company's if you need any more proof.

Tax rates have 0 to do with it, Israel is an innovative country like no other.

And again, Israel has done without egypt, and could do it again.
The cooperation is in BOTH parties best interest.

the US and the UK would not have the problems that they do with islamic terrorism if it was not for involvement in the middeast, specifically israel. france, denmark, spain, and other european nations have far more muslims per capita than the US and UK, but they have yet to be the target of an attack, excluding spain, but that was because of their involvement in the iraq war. after pulling out of iraq, spain has yet to have a terrorist attack.

those stats are nice for israel, but it's not going to save money for a foreign company like lower tax rates would. it's just a red herring really, unless you can prove to me how those stats would save money, and how much.

most of those stats are probably an effect of foreign equity investing in israel because of lower lower taxes rather than a cause of it. low tax rates are great incentive for startup companies after all. also, what's the percentage breakdown, in regards to private vs. government, in funding the research that produces those scientific papers. i'm curious.

edit: what do you think a company like intel cares more about, how many scietific papers are produced in israel, or lower taxes? i've listened to quite a few conference calls where companies specifically state moving their incorporation into israel for tax reasons.

[Bydded_Gryf]

The Jewish lobby is extremely powerful.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by Bydded_Gryf

The Jewish lobby is extremely powerful.

The Christian right (which heavily supports Israel) is even more powerful in this country.

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by 1devil

That's really not a response to any of my points in post #46.

basically implying that al-qaeda was lying about those demands is like saying that somoene would take hostages in a building and demands 10 million dollars in exchange for those hostages is really just lying about wanting 10 million dollars and never wanted it in the first place.

it makes no sense.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by ZexCui

basically implying that al-qaeda was lying about those demands is like saying that somoene would take hostages in a building and demands 10 million dollars in exchange for those hostages is really just lying about wanting 10 million dollars and never wanted it in the first place.

it makes no sense.

Your created post #43. I responded to that post with post #46. You have yet to respond to that post in a way that makes any sense at all.

[YARDGORILLA]

Originally Posted by balls2wall

If this (votes) was the only concern and reason for giving aid to Israel, than what stops the already elected government from discontinuing aid?

Good question.
The same reason that the nations with endless oil wealth in the middle east really don't help the Palestinians.

[odin673]

The relationship between the U.S and Israel is pretty simple. Without U.S aid, Israel would probably not exist anymore.

American politicians from both sides of the aisle support Israel because they fear alienation. Many American Jews support Israel because they see Israel as a safe haven. Being Jewish pretty much gurantees Israeli citizenship if you want it. Conservative Christians believe that the establishment of a strong Israel is somehow tied in to the second coming of Jesus.

Unconditional support makes no sense to me. I'm an American Jew and don't think America should automatically back Israel every time.

[Harbinger]

Originally Posted by Bydded_Gryf

The Jewish lobby is extremely powerful.

[NuggzTheNinja]

Originally Posted by ZexCui

al-qaeda officials have stated themselves that one of the prime motivations for the 9/11 attacks was US Support of israel. iirc, there was a poll done in iraq and possibly other middeast countries that showed that US support of israel was their number one complaint about the US. it even beat out the iraq invasion. indeed, US support of israel makes it much much easier to recruit terrorists against america.

the best universities are found in america and america's populations is about 60 times larger than israel's. there is a much larger pool of intelligent scientists, engineers, etc. in america. if it weren't for that lower tax rate these companies would set up shop in america not israel.

i never said israel needed egypt's cooperation, but it certainly helps them. if that 1.6 billion dollars in trade was just a sum total from 1994 to 2000, that would only amount to 266 million dollar a year on average, far less than the 1.5 billion that they receive annually in aid from the US.

the US says that egypt must cooperate with israel to continue receiving aid, so in that regard, that aid can be counted as aid to egypt.

Israel was only one of the reasons given by Al Qaeda. More importantly, and higher up on their list, was the presence of US bases in what they call the "Islamic world".

As long as that oil is flowing, the US is going to have bases in the Middle East, and Al Qaeda and other terrorists are going to continue to hate the US. Israel is just the "little satan" on the road to the "great satan". Which is what they call the US.

[NuggzTheNinja]

Originally Posted by odin673

The relationship between the U.S and Israel is pretty simple. Without U.S aid, Israel would probably not exist anymore.

American politicians from both sides of the aisle support Israel because they fear alienation. Many American Jews support Israel because they see Israel as a safe haven. Being Jewish pretty much gurantees Israeli citizenship if you want it. Conservative Christians believe that the establishment of a strong Israel is somehow tied in to the second coming of Jesus.

Unconditional support makes no sense to me. I'm an American Jew and don't think America should automatically back Israel every time.

This could not be further from the truth. It wasn't true during the Cold War, and it definitely is not true today.

[Stizzel]

We don't just give them money, we pay their enemies to leave them alone.

But if you need cash to survive unemployment, dont' go looking to uncle same. He's broke.

[Domkratos]

Originally Posted by YARDGORILLA

This thread is a tarp.

(just as the hwole US-Israel affair)


a few historic facts as food for thought:

*The infamous Kishinev Pogrom in the capital of the Bessarabia province of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE prompted 40,000 Jews to leave for Palestine. (The so-called Second Aliyah and the settlement of kibbutz socialists-zionists).

*The first Israeli prime ministers David Ben-Gurion, Moshe Sharett, Levi Eshkol, Golda Meir all were born in RUSSIA.

*The SOVIET RUSSIA was the FIRST country to recognize the State of Israel DE JURE (May 17, 1947, thee days after the proclamation of independence).




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