Heaven.

[BTI]

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

I wasn't arguing on the basis of pascal's wager. I don't believe that anyone should take up a set of beliefs for the simple reason of increasing their probability of an after life. I also don't believe that someone who does it for that sole reason is truly saved, although only God knows. I was simply appealing to a logical side of it, since many don't believe at all in God, the Bible, and afterlife, etc.

Whether you realize it or not, you reached the same conclusion as Blaise Pascal. You both falsely assumed that there are only two possible options, that the god of Christianity exists, or that he does not. If you had used logic, you would have realized that these are not the only two possible options. There is an infinite amount of possible deities.

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

In your example, it would depend on what belief system ended up being "correct" and what the terms of that religion was.

That's it, isn't it? There is more than just Christianity and atheism to consider.

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

But I don't care to get into that discussion we would both be speaking in the hypothetical, and I feel like that is a waste of time with the other trillion "what ifs"

I see. Being intellectually honest is tough work. It's much easier to toss out all of the other equally probable faiths because you don't follow them.

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

I was simply stating erring on the side of belief in death and nothing more does put the atheist at somewhat of a disadvantage.

Once again, that's if the god of the Christian faith is real. That's a big "if" considering you cannot provide a single shred of objective evidence for his existence.

What if the true god is one that favors atheists and despises Christians. Then you would be at a tremendous disadvantage.

[Forge3]

Originally Posted by linolenic

Let's be honest...this "heaven" thing is just an idea we create to help ourselves get through life and lessen the fear of death.



Can you address these two posts please:

I will do my best to answer your follow-up questions tomorrow. It is 6pm here and I am going to the local diner to eat then off to the beach to take in my daily does of nature. Thanks for asking me these questions and look at this thread tomorrow. I am a man of my word though I can't promise I will fully satisfy your queries with my responses I'll do my very best

[BTI]

Originally Posted by Forge3

Everything I say is taken from a variety of sources, including mystical literature. And I have a feeling that even if I do backpaddle and search for every text from every book it is founded on you will just refute it anyway. This has been my experience I think every single time.

It would help if you could offer objective, verifiable evidence to support your claims about Heaven.

[ONtop888]

Originally Posted by BTI

if you had used logic, you would have realized that these are not the only two possible options. There is an infinite amount of possible deities

I see. Being intellectually honest is tough work. It's much easier to toss out all of the other equally probable faiths because you don't follow them.

There not all equally probable. If you were seriously "searching" for God or truth, then you can start by looking at the major world religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, and the Abrahamic faiths, then logically deduce from there, as well as pray, and talk to leaders of the faiths.

I agree that Paschal's Wager is a fail, for the exact reason you said. However, regardless of the outcome of the next life, whether you're right and I cease to exist or the Muslims are right (which wouldn't be so bad for me in the Shiaa case) and I go to hell, I still won't have any regret because I tried to follow God to the best of my ability and understanding.

[xgatoradex]

i thought the streets were made of gold in heaven.

[Forge3]

Lol I am eating at home now.


It is written in the Bible that perfect love casts out ALL fear. By definition perfect love does not have selfish characteristics to it; at least not that I have read or heard about it. So a better way of saying what I said is that the absence of perfect love likely means the presence of some form or degree of fear. Perhaps I am not being logical here.

[JAGERBOY]

Originally Posted by Forge3

Lol I am eating at home now.


It is written in the Bible that perfect love casts out ALL fear. By definition perfect love does not have selfish characteristics to it; at least not that I have read or heard about it. So a better way of saying what I said is that the absence of perfect love likely means the presence of some form or degree of fear. Perhaps I am not being logical here.

....

[Forge3]

Originally Posted by xgatoradex

i thought the streets were made of gold in heaven.

Maybe...maybe not. If the Bible says they are than so be it. I think that is from revelations near the end.

[Spuddy]

There are at least 9 theoretical dimensions, and we can only see 3. It is my opinion that heaven, angels, etc., exist in the expanded dimensions, and look at our world from mere inches away just like we look at a 2 dimensional Nintendo game from mere inches away. Since Mario can't comprehend more than two planes of reality, he cannot fathom our 3 dimensional world and he certainly can't see us, even though we are extremely close to him from our perspective.

If heaven exists with a physical knowledge of the 4th+ dimensions, God literally CAN be here with us, and he literally CAN see the entire world at once, much like we can see an entire videogame screen at once even though the 2d character can't see the other side while stuck in that 2 plane world. On top of this, several dimensions have to do with time as well, which means if God is exists at a level of dimensional understanding in that regard, then He is being quite literal when He says He is the beginning and the end- This would mean He can see the entire timeline of everything at that same "time" (of course there would be no time if you exist outside of it, so I use the world just to simplify things..)


That being said, it is my opinion that Heaven could very well exist right here in front of us, we just don't posess the understanding to see it. When we die, the shield is removed, and we see ourselves and the world as it really is- Heaven. Just as the difference between only seeing in 2 planes of reality and seeing in 3 planes is infinitely different and indescribable to those who can't see it, so would the difference be from our current life to what the afterlife is in the outside dimensions.

I don't believe for a second that our souls look ANYTHING like what we appear to be right now. If Super Mario were to look at my finger in 2d, he would see a mere cross-section.. Nothing more than a badly made circle. However, open his eyes to 3 dimensions, and all of the sudden my finger becomes this magical thing with depth..something of which he could never think up in his wildest imaginations. If I am correct, then the difference between our current understanding of our surroundings and what life becomes after death would be exponentially greater than going from 2d to 3d, meaning it really isn't even worth trying to figure out what the afterlife would consist of, since we don't even understand the beginning of what we don't understand. We truly are completely blind and limited in everything right now.



I thought this up on my own, and really haven't discussed it with many people, though after racking my brain inside and out, it's the most logical explanation I can think of. I base this first on taking God literally when He states that He is the Beginning and the End, and that He sees everything there is to see (which is a scientific possibility if you include higher dimensions) as well as the various descriptions of Angels and Heaven in the Bible. Seraphim, when seen from men on Earth, are described as looking like humans with wings. However, when John, made into spirit form (IE: not human flesh and blood anymore) sees them within Heaven in Revelations, they are described as being covered with faces and eyes, almost as if they are existing in multiple 3d planes at once- IMO much like a 2d character would try and describe a finger he saw in 3 dimensions to a fellow 2d character ("It was like a flesh circle covered with flesh circles"). Heaven is described in a manner that really doesn't make any sense at all (read Revelations 4 when you have a minute..), and that controlled nonsense is what makes me really think he's trying to dumb-down a 4d experience into a 3d existence, something that isn't possible to understand on any real level of comfort until you actually SEE it.



Thoughts? I've never seen anyone talk about this idea, and I'm curious if anybody else sees it as having the merit I would give it.

[Forge3]

Originally Posted by JAGERBOY

....

Lulz.

[JAGERBOY]

So Forge, you crave "eternal happiness" at any cost? It doesn't bother you that you go through this life as YOU, then when you go to heaven you are not the same person? Once you achieve this eternal happiness, you won't really truly be able to appreciate it since its artificial and you aren't you anymore.

[BTI]

Originally Posted by ONtop888

There not all equally probable. If you were seriously "searching" for God or truth, then you can start by looking at the major world religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, and the Abrahamic faiths, then logically deduce from there, as well as pray, and talk to leaders of the faiths.

Until one faith can provide objective, verifiable evidence to support it, they all have an equal probability of being true. It doesn't matter how many followers a particular faith has. The true god could be one that no human has ever had faith in.

I am searching for God in the sense that I am looking for objective evidence that supports his existence. I cannot trust my own subjective feelings if I am interested in discovering objective truth because everyone has there own personal truths, and these truths are all correct (to each individual).

I do enjoy studying religion. I have a Bible on my nightstand and I try to read a few pages from it each night.

Originally Posted by ONtop888

I agree that Paschal's Wager is a fail, for the exact reason you said. However, regardless of the outcome of the next life, whether you're right and I cease to exist or the Muslims are right (which wouldn't be so bad for me in the Shiaa case) and I go to hell, I still won't have any regret because I tried to follow God to the best of my ability and understanding.

For me personally, I think that I would regret making the wrong decision after the first time the flesh on my body was seared off my bones and boiling, toxic liquid was poured down my throat.

[An hero]

Originally Posted by Spuddy

There are at least 9 theoretical dimensions, and we can only see 3. It is my opinion that heaven, angels, etc., exist in the expanded dimensions, and look at our world from mere inches away just like we look at a 2 dimensional Nintendo game from mere inches away. Since Mario can't comprehend more than two planes of reality, he cannot fathom our 3 dimensional world and he certainly can't see us, even though we are extremely close to him from our perspective.

If heaven exists with a physical knowledge of the 4th+ dimensions, God literally CAN be here with us, and he literally CAN see the entire world at once, much like we can see an entire videogame screen at once even though the 2d character can't see the other side while stuck in that 2 plane world. On top of this, several dimensions have to do with time as well, which means if God is exists at a level of dimensional understanding in that regard, then He is being quite literal when He says He is the beginning and the end- This would mean He can see the entire timeline of everything at that same "time" (of course there would be no time if you exist outside of it, so I use the world just to simplify things..)


That being said, it is my opinion that Heaven could very well exist right here in front of us, we just don't posess the understanding to see it. When we die, the shield is removed, and we see ourselves and the world as it really is- Heaven. Just as the difference between only seeing in 2 planes of reality and seeing in 3 planes is infinitely different and indescribable to those who can't see it, so would the difference be from our current life to what the afterlife is in the outside dimensions.

I don't believe for a second that our souls look ANYTHING like what we appear to be right now. If Super Mario were to look at my finger in 2d, he would see a mere cross-section.. Nothing more than a badly made circle. However, open his eyes to 3 dimensions, and all of the sudden my finger becomes this magical thing with depth..something of which he could never think up in his wildest imaginations. If I am correct, then the difference between our current understanding of our surroundings and what life becomes after death would be exponentially greater than going from 2d to 3d, meaning it really isn't even worth trying to figure out what the afterlife would consist of, since we don't even understand the beginning of what we don't understand. We truly are completely blind and limited in everything right now.



I thought this up on my own, and really haven't discussed it with many people, though after racking my brain inside and out, it's the most logical explanation I can think of. I base this first on taking God literally when He states that He is the Beginning and the End, and that He sees everything there is to see (which is a scientific possibility if you include higher dimensions) as well as the various descriptions of Angels and Heaven in the Bible. Seraphim, when seen from men on Earth, are described as looking like humans with wings. However, when John, made into spirit form (IE: not human flesh and blood anymore) sees them within Heaven in Revelations, they are described as being covered with faces and eyes, almost as if they are existing in multiple 3d planes at once- IMO much like a 2d character would try and describe a finger he saw in 3 dimensions to a fellow 2d character ("It was like a flesh circle covered with flesh circles"). Heaven is described in a manner that really doesn't make any sense at all (read Revelations 4 when you have a minute..), and that controlled nonsense is what makes me really think he's trying to dumb-down a 4d experience into a 3d existence, something that isn't possible to understand on any real level of comfort until you actually SEE it.



Thoughts? I've never seen anyone talk about this idea, and I'm curious if anybody else sees it as having the merit I would give it.

the angels are watching me fap?

also sounds like complete broscience

[Spuddy]

Originally Posted by An hero

the angels are watching me fap?

also sounds like complete broscience

?

I stated my idea and reasoning for it, then asked what others thought because I haven't gotten much input yet in the area.. How does that constitute broscience?

Does anyone have any actual input on the thought?

[An hero]

Let me put it this way: it sounds plausible, but what evidence do you have for it, other than the bible?

[mamba44444]

forge3 is a genius

have you ever read the power of now i just got it cause i heard it was good

[Enso]

As it is stated in the Bible by Jesus, heaven, it seems, has two meanings, or levels perhaps....When he says "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you"...and "First seek the Kingdom of Heaven, then all things needed will be granted unto you"...it means that heaven is a state of inner peace and what we should strive for here on earth (which happens when we act in accordance with the Holy Spirit)...and that after death, heaven is a state of positive karma in the afterlife. Saying it is a 'place' is rather misleading due to the confines of language, but it is about the best that can be done when understood in a metaphorical sense.

[Fitzwell]

Originally Posted by BTI

Whether you realize it or not, you reached the same conclusion as Blaise Pascal. You both falsely assumed that there are only two possible options, that the god of Christianity exists, or that he does not. If you had used logic, you would have realized that these are not the only two possible options. There is an infinite amount of possible deities.



That's it, isn't it? There is more than just Christianity and atheism to consider.



I see. Being intellectually honest is tough work. It's much easier to toss out all of the other equally probable faiths because you don't follow them.



Once again, that's if the god of the Christian faith is real. That's a big "if" considering you cannot provide a single shred of objective evidence for his existence.

What if the true god is one that favors atheists and despises Christians. Then you would be at a tremendous disadvantage.

I was simply stating I am not interested in spending 100 posts arguing hypothetical situations with you. And why would any god favor a group of people who do nothing but doubt the existence of a supreme being and for the most part, spend time insulting people who do (at least the ones on here). I didn't rule out all other possibilities, I was stating that believing in some form of a supreme being who is connected to the after life would put one at a great probability of being involved in that afterlife than one who believes in no greater being or after life at all. In your mind it is a big "if", in mine it is not even a question. And once again we come to a moot point. I start to question why anyone even posts anything on here, it doesn't seem that either side would ever change their beliefs.

[Fitzwell]

Originally Posted by BTI

Until one faith can provide objective, verifiable evidence to support it, they all have an equal probability of being true. It doesn't matter how many followers a particular faith has. The true god could be one that no human has ever had faith in.

I am searching for God in the sense that I am looking for objective evidence that supports his existence. I cannot trust my own subjective feelings if I am interested in discovering objective truth because everyone has there own personal truths, and these truths are all correct (to each individual).

I do enjoy studying religion. I have a Bible on my nightstand and I try to read a few pages from it each night.



For me personally, I think that I would regret making the wrong decision after the first time the flesh on my body was seared off my bones and boiling, toxic liquid was poured down my throat.

You will never find the objective truth, because it turns subjective. When I look outside I see a great world created by God, others see scenery that has evolved from one thing or the other or come together by some random means. It is what each person accepts as truth that becomes objective to them. The nature of Christianity is to have faith in many things. I believe in this world there is absolute truth, but most do not.

[Spuddy]

Originally Posted by An hero

Let me put it this way: it sounds plausible, but what evidence do you have for it, other than the bible?

What other evidence would there be? I'm willing to bet Richard Dawkins hasn't released a book on what science says heaven is yet.

Sure, I could rattle off what other faiths view Heaven, Nirvana, the afterlife, etc. as, but that wouldn't be at all related to what I view the Heaven of my faith as. All I did was put some knowledge of the dimensions that I learned on TV together with what the Bible describes God and Heaven as, and came up with what I view to be an interesting and very plausible-sounding scientific view of the how of what Heaven is. I believe it either way because of my faith in God, I just thought this was kinda interesting, and is a nice expansion on the normal "our eyes are opened and we are with God" explanation. I have a very analytical mind, and I love trying to get to the how of things even if I already have no problem with the what.

[BTI]

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

I was simply stating I am not interested in spending 100 posts arguing hypothetical situations with you.

That's fine, just understand that you are incorrect if you believe that there are only two possible options.

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

And why would any god favor a group of people who do nothing but doubt the existence of a supreme being and for the most part, spend time insulting people who do (at least the ones on here).

The majority of scientists these days are atheists.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

What if God favors those that have actually benefitted society in some meaningful way instead of those that have spent their lives doing little but blindly believing in him?

What if God favors those that have invented cures for diseases, discovered innovative ways to treat pain, and increased the life expectancy of the average citizen?

If this were the case, then many atheists would be loved by God and many theologians would be despised by him.

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

I didn't rule out all other possibilities, I was stating that believing in some form of a supreme being who is connected to the after life would put one at a great probability of being involved in that afterlife than one who believes in no greater being or after life at all.

You are still missing the point. What if the true god is one that despises blind faith and prefers human beings that don't believe in things without objective evidence?

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

In your mind it is a big "if", in mine it is not even a question.

We use different standards. That's all. I use scientific evidence (or lack thereof) and you use emotion.

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

And once again we come to a moot point. I start to question why anyone even posts anything on here, it doesn't seem that either side would ever change their beliefs.

[BTI]

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

You will never find the objective truth, because it turns subjective. When I look outside I see a great world created by God, others see scenery that has evolved from one thing or the other or come together by some random means. It is what each person accepts as truth that becomes objective to them.

That's not true at all. I have my own personal opinions about how people should behave in different situations, but I don't for a second believe that my opinions are objective truth. They are simply my opinions; my subjective truth.

[Fitzwell]

Originally Posted by BTI

That's fine, just understand that you are incorrect if you believe that there are only two possible options.



The majority of scientists these days are atheists.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

What if God favors those that have actually benefitted society in some meaningful way instead of those that have spent their lives blindly believing in him?

What if God favors those that have invented cures for diseases, discovered innovative ways to treat pain, and increased the life expectancy of the average citizen?

If this were the case, then many atheists would be loved by God and many theologians would be despised by him.



You are still missing the point. What if the true god is one that despises blind faith and prefers human beings that don't believe in ideas without objective evidence?



We use different standards. That's all. I use scientific evidence (or lack thereof) and you use emotion.

I appreciate what you are saying here, and of course I understand there are more than 2 options, more than 2 belief systems. It would be nearly impossible to find any 2 people of the same religion that even share a 100% compatible belief system when there are so many thousands of details that each person has to choose from. I understand What you are saying with the objectivity and science and all, but like I said, you are looking for physical answers to a spiritual question. I don't deny that it takes a leap of faith, but i certainly wouldn't degrade that fact down to saying the basis of Christianity is simply emotion. However, you are obviously welcome to look at it however you want to look at it. I am sorry I can't list out point by point that God is real using science and physical examples, for one I am not that strong on science (accounting major) for two, if I could do that, if God could be 100% proved by physical evidence it would defeat the whole purpose of free will.

[BTI]

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

I appreciate what you are saying here, and of course I understand there are more than 2 options, more than 2 belief systems. It would be nearly impossible to find any 2 people of the same religion that even share a 100% compatible belief system when there are so many thousands of details that each person has to choose from. I understand What you are saying with the objectivity and science and all, but like I said, you are looking for physical answers to a spiritual question. I don't deny that it takes a leap of faith, but i certainly wouldn't degrade that fact down to saying the basis of Christianity is simply emotion. However, you are obviously welcome to look at it however you want to look at it. I am sorry I can't list out point by point that God is real using science and physical examples, for one I am not that strong on science (accounting major) for two, if I could do that, if God could be 100% proved by physical evidence it would defeat the whole purpose of free will.

O.K. bro. NP.

[Beeewbs]

Originally Posted by Forge3

This thread is to address all the erronous concepts of heaven posited on here. I have met some Christians who say it is angels jamming on harps for eternity in clouds and atheists who say that sounds boring and maybe hell is actually better than such monotony. Of course remember these angels can jam better than even Hendrix

But seriously heaven is not just a place. It is not like going to a tropical paradise or a carnival. Some people go to such places and experience loneliness, depression, sorrow regardless of the environment because their inner self is perturbed and can't be uplifted by just going to another place. Wherever you go there you are.


Then what is heaven? It is a state like a mental state or emotional state. It is a state of beingness. The Kingdom of heaven is within not without. Saints have basicaly said that even the scenery is an arid desert if God is present to them and they are united with Him in love than it is bliss and it is not better than if the scenery is of a tropical paradise.

It is a state of great joy. And since God knows the most inner recesses of our being and what alone will truly satisfy us than that is fulfilled in heaven. Heaven is fulfillment in the deepest sense. I can't say it visuallly contains orange clouds or rainbows but what the soul needs and desires. King David said in his 23rd Psalm "I shall not want"!

Yet having said that people will argue if everything is fulfilled would that not be boring. I honestly don't know how to say that perfect joy ever becomes boring. But if God made our souls such that we have a deep seated need to keep on learning, be challenged and explore than that will be provided for. It is not like we get to heaven and have all the answers for eternity. And even if some souls vary from others slightly Jesus said that in the Kingdom of Heaven there are many mansions.

What if, to me, heaven is raping kittens while watching television evangelists get torn apart by lions? Sweet, sign me up for your religion.

[Beeewbs]

Originally Posted by Fitzwell

if God could be 100% proved by physical evidence it would defeat the whole purpose of free will.

Which is why everyone in heaven is a robot.

If god is proven once you get to heaven, you have no free will.

If anyone's existence is proven to you, even your cat's, you have no free will.

This is a nonsensical argument.

[Forge3]

Originally Posted by Forge3

I will do my best to answer your follow-up questions tomorrow. It is 6pm here and I am going to the local diner to eat then off to the beach to take in my daily does of nature. Thanks for asking me these questions and look at this thread tomorrow. I am a man of my word though I can't promise I will fully satisfy your queries with my responses I'll do my very best

Ok the connection to fear and selfishness is as follows:

It is a deduction from the scriptural passage that "perfect love casts out all fear" and selfishness of heart does not equate with perfect love.

[Forge3]

Originally Posted by Beeewbs

What if, to me, heaven is raping kittens while watching television evangelists get torn apart by lions? Sweet, sign me up for your religion.

There would be some parameters. Since when we are in heaven we are united to God in perfect love. Your heart/mind here is sick, delighting in suffering and and hate filled fantasy.

[JAGERBOY]

Originally Posted by JAGERBOY

So Forge, you crave "eternal happiness" at any cost? It doesn't bother you that you go through this life as YOU, then when you go to heaven you are not the same person? Once you achieve this eternal happiness, you won't really truly be able to appreciate it since its artificial and you aren't you anymore.

Bump.

[Forge3]

Originally Posted by JAGERBOY

Bump.

The process of getting to heaven begins now. Jesus told one of the Rabbi's while he was still on earth "You are not far from the Kingdom of heaven!" It is a transformation of beingness in which the dross of sinfulness such as greed, envy, hatred, haughty pride are purged away. In the process of santification those things which lead to suffering are purged like dross from silver leaving in their place equanimity and loving kindness unhampered by such things. I am already a much different person than ten years ago. I was anxious, with an anxiety disorder, introverted or hard to socialize and full of false pride. Now I am much much more patient, loving and caring and feel tons more freedom in myself and lots more discipline. And I am more content. I am not becoming a robot in this process in fact I can say I am becoming more of myself in a way because I can express myself so much easier. So the end process of this sanctification does not worry me, I will simply realize the fullness of my self without being constrained by sinfullness in any form and the slavery/suffering it imposes on me.