Advice on an M-Drol Cycle

[gabefedota]

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

I personally don't see what all the fuss is about and I certainly don't see the need for clomid or nolvadex....
Keep liver values and cholesterol in check.
Use some trib to reserse or prevent testicular shrinkage

Simple

wow...

and op, you are starting with m-drol????
And you don't have pct lined up? Do you even know how to get Nolva?

h-drol would have been a better choice.

BTW I have never taken a ph, but I have studied them in my pharmacology class...

[getbig_ttt]

Originally Posted by gabefedota

BTW I have never taken a ph, but I have studied them in my pharmacology class...

Really? Please share some knowledge with us! (will rep)

[Champion510]

if You've already started it then keep some AI handy for after cycle.
Be ready for back pumps if you increase dose from 10mg
Start taking Taurine 1000mg a day to avoid back pumps /bananas also work great.
be ready for little bit of lethargy after the cycle ends.

[gjohnson5]

Originally Posted by getbig_ttt

gjohnson5, your trying to push tribulus, out of all OTC supplements, for a m-drol cycle? Are you serious? I really hope your joking/high.(srs)

OP, please take some time to research the hell out of mdrol before you take it. Feel free to ask all your questions here.

Actually I am serious
What I mean by avert testicular shrinkage is that tribulus does increase lutenizing hormone and follicle stimulting hormone.
If one is HPTA shutdown from taking androgens , then this increase can keep the testicles producing hormones.

The problem with the tribulus studies is that they were not done on people shutdown from taking prohormones. If they were IMHO the outcome would ibe exactly opposite.

LH and FSH will help keep the testicles producing hormones if the HPTA is broken from steroid use. Tribulus can help with this on cycle.
This way you don't lose your gains as you restore your HPTA. This should also lessen if not stop any 'estrogen rebound' because testosterone and estrogen cannot be simultaneously elevated....

[ProWrestleFan]

Originally Posted by arshigtx

...and you wonder why ph's are probably gonna get banned

STOCK UP!

Originally Posted by HeatFuelOxygen

Nolvadex or Clomid for PCT bro. Don't take more than 2-3 pills a day for no longer than 30 days. SD/M-drol is NO JOKE.

I'd assume he's going OTC. I always go OTC, I know that. Never ran Nolva or Clomid...

I've done one M-Drol cycle and I ran reversitol following the PCT instructions on the back of the bottle. Everything seems to be fine now. Had no side effects, etc... Everyone's different though.

I am not recommending a OTC PCT, just stating my history...

[gjohnson5]

On one side note what Dan wrote in his blog:
http://blog.bodybuilding.com/deserus...t-of-the-year/

Unfortunately, before the FDA finally caught up with this steroid being marketed as a dietaty supplement the damage had been done. This was the hottest post prohormone ban prohormone to hit the streets and word spread fast across the forums and sadly enough falling into the hand of many teenagers and adults who don?t have the first clue as to properly take an anabolic compound. As a result, there were cases of delayed onset gynecomastia, sever cramping, lethargy, increases in LDL cholestrol and decreases in HDL cholesterol, duiresis, and even lactation in a few cases. What teenage boy wouldn?t mind sporting a nice pair of lactating might I ask? Now since it was a methylated compound and has a duiretic effect, anyone who knows about anabolics could have told you there was a possibility Superdrol was quite possibly both toxic to the liver and kidneys as well. Well now we have our proof of this as well.

IMHO the main cause of lactation is the action of progestins in the body. An imbalance in the dopamine / prolactin negative feedback loop. Progestins (chemical alterations of progesterone) are known to cause reductions in dopamine activity. With reduced dopamine levels , prolactin activity is allowed to increase thus causing the lactation. If one is seeing lactation from prohormones / prosteroids , it is because you are taking a progestin , not a DHT derivative like Drostanolone

[WyldByll]

This thread is near fail. OP, Nolva: 40/20/20/20. If you listen to nothing else, listen to that. You don't need both nolva/clomid if you're just doing a 20mg cycle. Please do searches on every supplement you take from now on. We will thank you for it.

[ekill]

Originally Posted by ProWrestleFan

STOCK UP!



I'd assume he's going OTC. I always go OTC, I know that. Never ran Nolva or Clomid...

I've done one M-Drol cycle and I ran reversitol following the PCT instructions on the back of the bottle. Everything seems to be fine now. Had no side effects, etc... Everyone's different though.

I am not recommending a OTC PCT, just stating my history...

That was what i was planning to do. I was reading up on the reversitol and it seemed to fit the description of what various posters had been recommending.

Im taking the M-Drol 10mg the first week followed by 20mg the next 3 weeks along with the cycle assist. Then the reversitol for a PCT. DOes this sound legit?

[DAVE_MAN]

Originally Posted by ekill

Then the reversitol for a PCT. DOes this sound legit?

____

Originally Posted by WyldByll

OP, Nolva: 40/20/20/20. If you listen to nothing else, listen to that.

[DAVE_MAN]

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

If one is HPTA shutdown from taking androgens , then this increase can keep the testicles producing hormones.

The problem with the tribulus studies is that they were not done on people shutdown from taking prohormones. If they were IMHO the outcome would ibe exactly opposite.

Why would this differ from AAS to PH?
Shutdown is shutdown is it not?
According to this logic tribulus would recover AAS users too which is obviously not the case.

[gjohnson5]

Originally Posted by DAVE_MAN

Why would this differ from AAS to PH?
Shutdown is shutdown is it not?
According to this logic tribulus would recover AAS users too which is obviously not the case.

AAS differs from prohormones
1. dosage
2. potency
3. esterification
4. lipophillic , hydrophillic properties

For AAS you would use HCG...
The principal is the same

[ekill]

Originally Posted by DAVE_MAN

____

Ok so the Nolva. Someone asked me if i knew how to get it. So can anyone help me with that. I do appriciate all the help. I guess I shoulda done the H-Drol first but i already started the M-Drol so I just want to make sure I do it right. And what the hell does OP mean?

[DAVE_MAN]

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

AAS differs from prohormones
For AAS you would use HCG...
The principal is the same

"T. terrestris did not alter the urinary T/E ratio and would not place an athlete at risk of testing positive based on the World Anti-Doping Agency's urinary T/E ratio limit of 4:1."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

I can not find a relevant study for Trib's role in LH or FSH production but there seems to be evidence for both out there.
Regardless of tribulus' effectiveness or comparison to HCG, in AAS cycles Clomid and Nolva are both still used to restart the HTPA.
Without PCT the HPTA will have a tough time recovering regardless of the hormone being called a PH DS or AAS.

Both Superdrol and Test E will shut you down. Recovery should be approached the same way, Clomid and Nolva obviously work for 12 week and longer Test cycles so they will obviously be sufficient for SDrol. I would rather endure the side effects of Nolva for 4 weeks then low test for a year.

[WyldByll]

Originally Posted by ekill

Ok so the Nolva. Someone asked me if i knew how to get it. So can anyone help me with that. I do appriciate all the help. I guess I shoulda done the H-Drol first but i already started the M-Drol so I just want to make sure I do it right. And what the hell does OP mean?

It's an extrememly common mistake. Don't worry. I'm just glad you're not too stubborn and can learn from your mistakes. Nolva/Clomid are both prescription strength pct. Hence, you can't ask for source (might get you banned). Google is your best friend. Once you find what seems to be a reliable online source, do a review search of the company. Nolva (tamoxifen citrate) is cheap and thusly rarely faked. But still search carefully.

Reps on recharge DAVE_MAN

[gjohnson5]

Originally Posted by DAVE_MAN

"T. terrestris did not alter the urinary T/E ratio and would not place an athlete at risk of testing positive based on the World Anti-Doping Agency's urinary T/E ratio limit of 4:1."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

I can not find a relevant study for Trib's role in LH or FSH production but there seems to be evidence for both out there.
Regardless of tribulus' effectiveness or comparison to HCG, in AAS cycles Clomid and Nolva are both still used to restart the HTPA.
Without PCT the HPTA will have a tough time recovering regardless of the hormone being called a PH DS or AAS.

Both Superdrol and Test E will shut you down. Recovery should be approached the same way, Clomid and Nolva obviously work for 12 week and longer Test cycles so they will obviously be sufficient for SDrol. I would rather endure the side effects of Nolva for 4 weeks then low test for a year.

The study does not speak to the subject at all.

It's ridiculous to compare superdrol and test E. One aromatises and the estrogen rise is due to taking high doses of injectable an esterified drug which takes months to clear the system. The other drug is used to TREAT estrogen elevation.
Secondly the idea that superdrol will cause hypogonadism for a year is hyperbole. I would agree with some HPTA sensitive , this could be. For the vast majority of individuals this is not the case. IMHO the evidence is on you to show how SDROL could have such effects on HPTA.

In fact I've been saying this all day. Most of this is glorification of prohormones is hyperbole.
These are not injectable drugs and these drugs are not being done hundreds of mills t a time.

[DAVE_MAN]

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

The study does not speak to the subject at all.

It's ridiculous to compare superdrol and test E. One aromatises and the estrogen rise is due to taking high doses of injectable an esterified drug which takes months to clear the system. The other drug is used to TREAT estrogen elevation.
Secondly the idea that superdrol will cause hypogonadism for a year is hyperbole. I would agree with some HPTA sensitive , this could be. For the vast majority of individuals this is not the case. IMHO the evidence is on you to show how SDROL could have such effects on HPTA.

In fact I've been saying this all day. Most of this is glorification of prohormones is hyperbole.
These are not injectible drugs and these drugs are not being done hundreds of mills t a time.

It's also rediculous to compare Tribulus to HCG.
As far as I can see, there are no tests on tribulus showing it has any power, positive or negative, to affect LH or FSH production. Unless you can provide a study, article, sentence, anything to show otherwise, tribulus is useless in PCT.

In PCT of any compound, my first priority would be HPTA startup as soon as possible. Masteron is unable to convert to estrogen so superdrol should not behave any differently, I am not arguing there. They will both shutdown your HPTA test production.

I'm not arguing that SD or any other oral can touch Test or any other injectable. I just don't understand how you can advocate using something like tribulus to start up HPTA production after anything but injectables. 30mg of Superdrol and 500ml of Test are obviously completely different animals but both will shut down test production.

You obviously are much more knowledgeable then I am in the endocrine system and these compounds so I am sorry but I am not much of a challenge.

There is blood work to back up the effects Superdrol has on test levels, however I would be hard pressed to prove SD induced hypogonadism as it just has not been around long enough.

[gjohnson5]

Originally Posted by DAVE_MAN

It's also rediculous to compare Tribulus to HCG.

OK...

Clinical investigation on Tribestan in males with disorders in the sexual function MBI, 1982

So far, the mechanism of action of Tribestan remains vague. Following clinical trials, Koumanov et al (1982) launched the hypothesis of a central effect of the preparation as prompted by the elevated Lutenizing hormone level. Alternatively, Tribestan may realize its effects by being metabolized in the body into androgen-like products or stimulating the physiological transformation of testosterone into dehydrotestosterone (DHT), androstenediol or estrogens. There exists a possibility that Tribestan may exert a direct action on the hypothalamus and maybe also upon other superior brain structures. On the other hand, a peripheral effect is assumed to be present as well; most probably, it produces the effect of the preparation on the pelage. The treatment of patients suffering of a secondary hypogonadism is associated with an enhanced axillary and genital pelage. The increased quantity of DHT is related to it as well.
.
.
.
The treatment of patients with an unilateral or bilateral hypotrophy of the testes associated with the spermogram disorders is of a definite interest. Following a 60-day Tribestan treatment, the libido augments and spermogram improves. In patients with a primary or secondary hypogonadism, there is a libido recovery and enhancement, and an improved and prolonged erection following the administration of the preparation.


The problem with your logic is that you need to fund information on tribulus on those with secondary hypogonadism which would be quite similar to being shutdown from steroid use.
I have infact found a clinical trial of a tribulus which does report libido and lutenizing hormone increases in those who have secondary hypogonadism. Which does infact create a similarity in concept

[gjohnson5]

Originally Posted by DAVE_MAN

In PCT of any compound, my first priority would be HPTA startup as soon as possible. Masteron is unable to convert to estrogen so superdrol should not behave any differently, I am not arguing there. They will both shutdown your HPTA test production.

I'm not arguing that SD or any other oral can touch Test or any other injectable. I just don't understand how you can advocate using something like tribulus to start up HPTA production after anything but injectables. 30mg of Superdrol and 500ml of Test are obviously completely different animals but both will shut down test production.

Clearly you don't understand what I'm saying from the parts in bold. Infact I would say you should read on what HPTA actually is.
HPTA and test production are totally separate.
HPTA can be completely broken and one can produce testosterone.

I've spent alot of time trying to explain this and you've even went out of your way to see HCG and trib are not comparable without understanding this....
That's the part I don't get.

ALL HCG is sythetic Lutenizing Hormone. It's not used to restart HPTA , it's used to keep the testicules functioning UNTIL HPTA is restarted.
How people can think HCG can restart the hypothalamus in creating GnRH is beyond me because it does not do that.
I agree that HCG is much more potent then some herb and there is no comparison. It's just the concept of artificially increasing LH while one is shutdown / secondary hypogonadal or whatever...

[DAVE_MAN]

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

The problem with your logic is that you need to fund information on tribulus on those with secondary hypogonadism which would be quite similar to being shutdown from steroid use.
I have infact found a clinical trial of a tribulus which does report libido and lutenizing hormone increases in those who have secondary hypogonadism. Which does infact create a similarity in concept

This is actually very interesting.
Note: Tribulus and Tribestan are NOT the same and do NOT have the same effects. Tribestan is extracted from the tribulus plant.

Apart from this, your comparisons between tribulus and HCG are no different then the comparisons between SD and Test. They accomplish the same thing on different levels.

As far as the HPTA, if the HPTA is suppressed, it is not producing LH. LH is responsible for test production. Without the HPTA to produce the LH there is a small release of test only from the adrenal glands. I am confused as to where I don't understand the HPTA here.

[WyldByll]

Give it up fellas. Gjohnson, you're wrong. Anyone with any kind of experience will tell you that. Reversitol is by far the best otc pct agent there is but it is not even close to possessing the abilities to reactivate the hpta system as well as nolva or clomid. The both of you are spiriling down a confusing path with no directions. You are on the right track though DAVE_MAN.

[HeatFuelOxygen]

Reversitol for PCT after SD? Couldn't pay me to do it.

[Alec Trevelyan]

This is quite possibly one of the funniest threads of stupidity ive seen in a long time......im quite amused & sad at the same time.

[gjohnson5]

Originally Posted by DAVE_MAN

This is actually very interesting.
Note: Tribulus and Tribestan are NOT the same and do NOT have the same effects. Tribestan is extracted from the tribulus plant.

http://www.tribestan.com/

The active substance in Tribestan is a proprietary extract of Tribulus Terrestris and does NOT contain herbal particles that may pose health danger.

Wrong again

[gjohnson5]

Originally Posted by DAVE_MAN

Apart from this, your comparisons between tribulus and HCG are no different then the comparisons between SD and Test. They accomplish the same thing on different levels.

This is by far the most ridiculous statement ever

Originally Posted by HeatFuelOxygen

Reversitol for PCT after SD? Couldn't pay me to do it.

IMHO this is all that needed.
The cycle assist products (such as tribulus) on cycle and resveritol PCT should do fine

[SeanEH]

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

The 2 "supplements" he spoke about are not supplements. They are prescription drugs. Everyone gets around this by going to an ancillary shop and buying prescription drugs without a doctors oversight.
Not only that but you are taking a drug which has a label on it which says "not for human consumption". So who the hell knows whats in that bottle.....

Online pharmacies have the real stuff, no such label. The sides of a four week course of Nolva or Clomid are nothing. Women take this stuff for a year plus at a time and live through it.

[ekill]

Just wanted to thank everyone on their advice. I def needed to do more research so since it was only a day or say i decided to stop and wait. I'll keep the SD for when im ready for it, and use the Nolva as PCT for that cycle. However im going to take most posters advice and start with something like H-Drol first, and in doing so im going to make sure i have the right supps and PCT ready before I begin the cycle. CLearly i was a bit out of my element with the prohormone, but i think im just goiong to ask questions and do research before I do my first cycle. Thanks again to all who gave advice.

[DAVE_MAN]

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

http://www.tribestan.com/

The active substance in Tribestan is a proprietary extract of Tribulus Terrestris and does NOT contain herbal particles that may pose health danger.

Wrong again

From the site you posted:

"You may have assumed that Tribulus terrestris (a more popular and well known supplement), would provide you with all the benefits associated with Tribestan. That's a major problem because Tribulus terrestris has been confused with Tribestan for the past several years. But they are not the same thing."

Wrong again?

SD and Test accomplish the exact same thing. They both synthesize protein, build muscle, and most importantly as well as the point of this thread, they both shut down natural test production.

Would you take Reversitol for a masteron cycle?

[gjohnson5]

Originally Posted by DAVE_MAN

From the site you posted:

"You may have assumed that Tribulus terrestris (a more popular and well known supplement), would provide you with all the benefits associated with Tribestan. That's a major problem because Tribulus terrestris has been confused with Tribestan for the past several years. But they are not the same thing."

Wrong again?

Yep , still wrong
The original quote says clearly that the active ingredient tribestan is an extract of Tribulus terrestris...

What you're reading is called marketing....

Originally Posted by DAVE_MAN

SD and Test accomplish the exact same thing. They both synthesize protein, build muscle, and most importantly as well as the point of this thread, they both shut down natural test production.

Wrong again...
SD and test shutdown the HPTA which is a negative feedback loop
Stop arguing and learn the difference between primary and secondary hypogonadism

[DAVE_MAN]

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

Yep , still wrong
The original quote says clearly that the active ingredient tribestan is an extract of Tribulus terrestris...

What you're reading is called marketing....

Your original quote is from the same "marketing" site's study.


"There was no significant difference between Tribulus terrestris supplemented groups and controls in the serum testosterone , androstenedione, or luteinizing hormone levels. All results were within the normal range. The findings in the current study anticipate that Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins possess neither direct nor indirect androgen-increasing properties." (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...f04508592f54c4)

[tleaman]

Originally Posted by ekill

This is my first pro-hormone cycle. I am 21 years old, 6'0 192. I just got the M-Drol and Cycle Assist. I was wondering if anyone could give me advice on how many mgs i should take a day after the first week. I have only started one day so far with 10mg which is one cap. I would also appriciate any advice on PCTs. My goal is to gain muscle mass with as little side affects as possible.

I would save that bottle of M-Drol for later use. I'm almost done with a Spawn cycle, started out weighing 195 and weigh about 213 now. My strength went up a lot as well, could only get 315 one rep on bench when I started out. I am at week 3 and will try to get 355 later on today. Spawn was my first cycle and IMO saw excellent results.