Thanks! I have never seen it, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. My heals are about 5 inches apart when i pull.
Same as you I get a ton of help from oly shoes on conventional deads...but I'm switching over to sumo so I'm wondering if it would have the same effect. Guess I'll have to try it next time I deadlift.
Same as you I get a ton of help from oly shoes on conventional deads...but I'm switching over to sumo so I'm wondering if it would have the same effect. Guess I'll have to try it next time I deadlift.
If you are an OLY lifter why are you switching to sumo?
Maybe someday ill pull sumo, but not raw. My hips cant handle that, i have tried, it sucks.
Same as you I get a ton of help from oly shoes on conventional deads...but I'm switching over to sumo so I'm wondering if it would have the same effect. Guess I'll have to try it next time I deadlift.
generally pulling sumo you would want the opposite from what an Oly shoe will give you.
i know a lot of sumo pullers who have special chucks that they modified to put a block under their toes to help put their weight more firmly on the heels.
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If you are an OLY lifter why are you switching to sumo?
Maybe someday ill pull sumo, but not raw. My hips cant handle that, i have tried, it sucks.
I'm starting to gravitate from being just an oly lifter to more of an allround lifter, and sumo just feels better...
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaku900
generally pulling sumo you would want the opposite from what an Oly shoe will give you.
i know a lot of sumo pullers who have special chucks that they modified to put a block under their toes to help put their weight more firmly on the heels.
I see, so does sumo have significantly less quad drive of the floor than conventional?
My leg drive went WAY up when i put my olys on. I struggled with 435 in flat soles.
Mark Rippetoe Going Deeper into the Deadlift
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe
MK: In Starting Strength, you discuss the importance of the quadriceps in the beginning of the deadlift to produce knee extension. You state, ?The quadriceps must participate in the deadlift properly in order for the movement to be safe and efficient.? In this regard, you have recommended weightlifting shoes to better utilize the quads. Powerlifters are nearly always found deadlifting in some kind of flat shoe because it reduces the range of motion and makes it easier to get on the heels and recruit the posterior chain. From a powerlifting perspective, would the benefit of extra quad recruitment with weightlifting shoes outweigh the extra inch of the range of motion (ROM) on the pull and diminished posterior chain recruitment?
MR: I have deadlifted heavy both ways. In my later lifting career, I switched over to weightlifting shoes and pulled my biggest deadlift?633 lbs?on two separate occasions. The shoes I wore were the old, Adidas weightlifting shoes that had a little heel (about 5/8-inch elevation from the ball of the foot to the heel).
When powerlifters think about getting back on the heels, they?re putting the bar over the middle of the foot because when you start pushing on the ground with a heavy bar, that?s where it?s going to be in balance. If it?s behind the middle of the foot, you?re going to be off balance backward. If it?s in front of the middle of the foot, you?re going to be off balance forward. So we don?t really want to be on the heels. We want the bar directly over the middle of the foot. A better cue would be to push the middle of the foot into the floor. I like to think about the contact path directly under the bar and push it into the floor. That keeps me in better balance than doing it any other way.
If I have a little heel under my shoe, that places my knee in a position that is a little bit forward, maybe three to five degrees more forward than it would be in flat shoes. This increases the quadriceps? effectiveness off the floor because it increases the knee angle enough that it allows the quadriceps to open the knee up over a longer range of motion. Thus, the quadriceps has more work to do. It doesn?t increase the knee angle enough that posterior chain recruitment is diminished at all. The only way to do this would be to have enough of the heel so the lift would produce a knee angle so acute that it actually shortened the hamstrings from the distal end. We?re using the hamstrings from the proximal end to extend the hip. That?s the action of the posterior chain on the hip. If the knee angle is made acute enough that you actually put slack from the distal end into the hamstring you?re attempting to use from the proximal end, you diminish the effectiveness of the use of the posterior chain.
If the heel is low enough, there is no compromise between posterior chain recruitment and quadriceps recruitment. You only get that when the heel is too high. The heel on the shoe, while taking a tiny bit of tension off the hamstrings and making it a little bit easier to get into that extended lumbar position, also produces enough increase in the knee angle so that you get a little bit more work out of the quadriceps off the floor. I think it?s a reasonable compromise between that and the extra distance that the bar would have to be pulled. And the extra distance would be the height of the shoe directly over the middle of the foot, not at the end of the heel because you lock the bar out over the middle of the foot as well. That?s the extra distance that you?re pulling.
I also think wrestling shoes almost make it harder to get into the correct position because of the increased tension that the straighter knee places on the hamstrings. It?s harder to get the lumbar spine into an extended position against that hamstring tension. The pelvis is in a war for control between the muscles of the low back and the muscles of the hamstrings. If you?re going to pull the bar off the ground and not eventually hurt yourself, the lumbar spine needs to be in extension. That means the back muscles have to win the war.
In fact, the reason some deadlifters and most Olympic lifters rock forward onto their toes before they pull is because this takes the tension off the hamstrings and allows the low back to get into an arched position more easily. But it also means that the bar has to travel back to the mid-foot during the pull. This explains the ?hook? in the bottom of the bar path in a clean and snatch, which is light enough compared to a deadlift that the bar can actually leave the ground in this position. They can be done this way, but a heavy deadlift won?t leave the ground very far in front of the mid-foot.
The bottom line is that I don?t want less muscle in the movement. I want as much muscle in the movement as I can get. I need them all because I?m going to use them all. Whether I?m at my one rep max or on my third attempt, I need as much stuff helping me out as possible.
MK: When you mention a compromise with the extra distance that one pulls the bar with weightlifting shoes, one could likewise say that flat shoes create compromises regarding quad recruitment and proper lumbar position.
MR: Yes, you could. There are compromises on both sides that have to be appreciated before you can make an informed decision about it. I did it both ways, and I like a little bit of heel better. I understand that many people are doing sumo deadlifts right now and that might change the equation a little bit. I never did sumo. Sumo is used because it produces a more vertical back angle, and the wide stance reduces the effective length of the femur. There are mechanical differences between conventional and sumo that might favor a flat shoe. I don?t pull sumo though so I don?t know. I don?t know anybody who does pull sumo and doesn?t wear flat shoes.
Now, it very well might be that somebody pulling sumo might find a benefit out of a little bit of a heel in the same way that a conventional puller would, but I?d be pulling things out of my ass if I said that I knew for sure.
MK: If weightlifting shoes facilitate greater quad recruitment from the floor, it seems flat shoes are more advantageous in deadlift assistance exercises like Romanian deadlifts and good mornings that seek to exclude the quads. In deadlift assistance exercises like pulls on blocks and pulls with 35s entailing greater knee extension, weightlifting shoes seem more advantageous.
MR: These all seem to be reasonable conclusions.
MK: What is the maximum heel height that you have found to be compatible with keeping the bar over the middle of the foot?
MR: I like somewhere between 0.625 inches and 0.75 inches. That?s the difference between the height under the ball of the foot and the height under the heel. We have investigated this at length, and we don?t think that you can get somebody in position with the bar over the middle of the foot with a 1.75-inch heel.
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your shoes make that much of a difference? i just DL barefoot, although im only DLing around 90-100kg so i guess it woudltn make a huge difference to me yet lol
your shoes make that much of a difference? i just DL barefoot, although im only DLing around 90-100kg so i guess it woudltn make a huge difference to me yet lol
I notice a huge difference! But that might just by my style/ body mechanics.
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