ketogenic diet for showtime cutting

[WILDBILL]

Hello Everyone,
Hoping that some one can give me a little feed back on ketogenic dieting for contest preparation. Is it true that muscle size will be compromised from using this diet? I'm getting ready for the Michigan in March of 2010 and I will be beginning this type of diet August 6th. Any feed back will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Bill

[debrovnik]

Honestly Bill - Keto did nothing for me. Absolutely zero.

I personally think that it works best if you're very fat as you'll see results quickly but for me starting out lean... it didn't do a thing. Maybe it just doesn't suit my body, I don't know.

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by WILDBILL

Hello Everyone,
Hoping that some one can give me a little feed back on ketogenic dieting for contest preparation. Is it true that muscle size will be compromised from using this diet? I'm getting ready for the Michigan in March of 2010 and I will be beginning this type of diet August 6th. Any feed back will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Bill

Your dieting approach depends mostly on your insulin sensitivity/resistance. That information alone is plenty to determine whether or not to do a high/moderate/low carb approach.

By the way, there are NO benefits that a ketogenic diet has to offer that a simple low carb (think carbs at 20% of total cals or less) approach won't already give. And the entire "muscle sparing" talk surrounding keto diets are a myth.

Best of luck.

Sporto

[Jay Rawd]

Read my thread in Advanced Nutrition:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?p=319994001

My personal views: keto did nothing for me, and it actually caused significant muscle loss. Not only that, but if you want to look like you lift it's better to eat carbs, simply because keto causes a VERY flat and stringy muscle look. You end up looking like a swimmer more than a bodybuilder. Not only that, but energy levels are HORRIBLE, at least for me they were. Strength went down, muscle went down, and I was in a bad mood all the time.

Keep in mind I was eating about 1.5 g/lb. of bodyweight in protein, and did little to mitigate strength and muscle loss.

[Bulgarian_mm]

The advice you guys are giving is very biased. Jay, because it didnt work for you it doesnt mean it doesnt for everyone. Perhaps you didnt do it properly to suit your body. Also depends on whether you did keto straight up or a cyclical approach.

Personally i can tell you fora fact that all the people i have put on a cyclical ketogenic diet have seen great results. I used a traditional low carb diet to get lean for a show and i have used a cyclical diet (anabolic diet and get shredded diet) for another show. I looked better with the anabolic diet but i tailored everything to my needs. I've been on the anabolic diet for over a year now and personally i swear by its effectiveness in both muscle building and fat loss. But carbohydrates are absolutely essential at the right times.

If you decide to do keto, it will work and get you shredded BUT MAKE SURE you incorporate heavy carb up days in your plan. I like 6days low 1 day heavy loading and when i say carb up i dont mean cheat days. To avoid looking stringy like Jay said you MUST carb up frequently.

Also keep in mind that eventhough it worked for me and the poeple i've helped, ithere is a slight chance it might not work for you. Only way to find out is through experimentation

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by Bulgarian_mm

The advice you guys are giving is very biased. Jay, because it didnt work for you it doesnt mean it doesnt for everyone. Perhaps you didnt do it properly to suit your body. Also depends on whether you did keto straight up or a cyclical approach.

Personally i can tell you fora fact that all the people i have put on a cyclical ketogenic diet have seen great results. I used a traditional low carb diet to get lean for a show and i have used a cyclical diet (anabolic diet and get shredded diet) for another show. I looked better with the anabolic diet but i tailored everything to my needs. I've been on the anabolic diet for over a year now and personally i swear by its effectiveness in both muscle building and fat loss. But carbohydrates are absolutely essential at the right times.

If you decide to do keto, it will work and get you shredded BUT MAKE SURE you incorporate heavy carb up days in your plan. I like 6days low 1 day heavy loading and when i say carb up i dont mean cheat days. To avoid looking stringy like Jay said you MUST carb up frequently.

I carbed up frequently, friend. made no difference. No cheat days, either. Low fat, "good carbs", and lots of them.

[Jay Rawd]

Also, can you show me where I seemed to be biased? Notice I linked a thread which provides studies, which means I am objective. Keto works to a degree but there's no reason why a high protein, moderate carb, low fat diet can't be effective. Show me a study where a keto diet was matched against a high protein moderate carb diet and the keto diet proves to be more effective and muscle sparing?

Also, I love how you call me biased but the entirety of your post is nothing but anecdotes in an attempt to prove your point. Irony, much?

[Bulgarian_mm]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

I carbed up frequently, friend. made no difference. No cheat days, either. Low fat, "good carbs", and lots of them.

Well my energy levels are great. Right now i have 5-6 low carb days and 1 or 2 carb up days depending on how i look. I love 2lbs per week, look full eat about 2600-3000calories, 60%fat 35%protein. No cravings whatsoever. I do 20min cardio per day and it feels great.

It is possible that your just not suited to that, i think that most people are though, they just need to tailor it to their bodies. But everyone is different.

Im not saying that keto is more muscle sparing or not. Im not touching that with a ten foot pole. But keto is getting a bad rep because ppl JUST dont do it properly and end up looking like ****. I've done both types of eating. Both work, but i felt like i was starving on the carb approach

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by Bulgarian_mm

Well my energy levels are great. Right now i have 5-6 low carb days and 1 or 2 carb up days depending on how i look. I love 2lbs per week, look full eat about 2600-3000calories, 60%fat 35%protein. No cravings whatsoever. I do 20min cardio per day and it feels great.

It is possible that your just not suited to that, i think that most people are though, they just need to tailor it to their bodies. But everyone is different.

Im not saying that keto is more muscle sparing or not. Im not touching that with a ten foot pole. But keto is getting a bad rep because ppl JUST dont do it properly and end up looking like ****. I've done both types of eating. Both work, but i felt like i was starving on the carb approach

Like Tommy said, individual insulin sensitivity determines this. My body happens to be insulin sensitive to an insanely high degree unheard of to most people, I guess. I bulk on 600 grams of carbs, at least.

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

My personal views: keto did nothing for me, and it actually caused significant muscle loss.

What's up Jay. There could have been a few reasons why the muscle loss was significant. Sometimes it can be the sheer pace of weight/fat loss, sometimes it's because of the wrong starting calorie level being too low, etc. But, I would say that if you were feeling like crap (heck 600g+ of carbs in the offseason is a HUGE indicator), then this approach is not for you

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Not only that, but if you want to look like you lift it's better to eat carbs, simply because keto causes a VERY flat and stringy muscle look.

This actually depends...there are a few things you can do to avoid this, but that is a moot point if this approach is not for you!

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Not only that, but energy levels are HORRIBLE, at least for me they were. Strength went down, muscle went down, and I was in a bad mood all the time.

That right there is your indicator. For any noobs reading this, if you are on a dieting approach and your mood and energy levels are for horrible from the start or early on, then PAY ATTENTION to what your body is telling you. It's simply saying that you need a different approach. Dieting is not, and should not, be like that until you are either single digits, below setpoint for an extended period of time, or stage lean.

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Keep in mind I was eating about 1.5 g/lb. of bodyweight in protein, and did little to mitigate strength and muscle loss.

Do you know the exact macros? It could have been a few other things, but like I said, it really doesn't matter since this isn't for you!

Originally Posted by Bulgarian_mm

The advice you guys are giving is very biased.

I hope this wasn't directed towards me - the information I gave in my post was factual and unbiased.

Originally Posted by Bulgarian_mm

But keto is getting a bad rep because ppl JUST dont do it properly and end up looking like ****. I've done both types of eating. Both work, but i felt like i was starving on the carb approach

Keto gets a bad rep because there seem to be a large number of people that do keto diets that have no nutritional knowledge whatsoever and spout of BS myths to justify why they do what they do. Keto can work fine depending on a person's insulin resistance/sensitivity, but I still hold that you can deplete and carb up completely fine (and actually more effectively) by NOT going into ketosis, but rather keeping carbs below a certain percentage of calories. If you would like a mountain of proof and factual evidence to support this, speak to one of my good friends Lyle McDonald - who just so happens to be labeled the "ketogenic guru". He will even tell you ketosis is pointless if carbs are low enough to get what you want.

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Like Tommy said, individual insulin sensitivity determines this. My body happens to be insulin sensitive to an insanely high degree unheard of to most people, I guess. I bulk on 600 grams of carbs, at least.

Then yes, keto is NOT for you. Ya hear me?

Sporto

[Cape1]

A couple of years back, I lost close to 100# using an approach similar to what Tommy is talking about - i.e., carbs really low with maybe periods of drifting in and out of Ketosis.

I used this same approach to help 2 guys I worked with recently acheive a similar weight loss goals.

My conclusion is this: Both Camps have it wrong. 1) Those who say you'll loose all your muscle in ketosis and 2) those who say you need ketosis to loose fat.

Low, measured carbs, timed correctly works wonders (this assuming the insulin sensativity aspects aforementioned). I can speak only from my own experience but taking carbs too low hinders my workouts, makes me look flat and generally puts a hair accross my ass.

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by Cape1

A couple of years back, I lost close to 100# using an approach similar to what Tommy is talking about - i.e., carbs really low with maybe periods of drifting in and out of Ketosis.

I used this same approach to help 2 guys I worked with recently acheive a similar weight loss goals.

My conclusion is this: Both Camps have it wrong. 1) Those who say you'll loose all your muscle in ketosis and 2) those who say you need ketosis to loose fat.

Low, measured carbs, timed correctly works wonders (this assuming the insulin sensativity aspects aforementioned). I can speak only from my own experience but taking carbs too low hinders my workouts, makes me look flat and generally puts a hair accross my ass.

Hold on there, I didn't really say that YOU will lose your muscle mass in keto, I said that I did.

I know keto can work wonders for many people, but I think it's better to start with higher carbs (maybe like 150), lower fat, and find out how that goes before going into the ketogenic range. I'm a little over 300 grams of carbs right now and seeing nice quad separation coming out especially in the rectus femoris and vastus lateralis, as well as seeing some pec striations and crazy arm vascularity. I also am not losing size but looking tighter. No flat look yet. My exact macros are at 240 grams of protein, 309 grams of carbs, and 61 grams of fat each day. I haven't even done a refeed yet since my energy levels are still decent and I'm not looking flat. If I do, I'll drop protein to 195, up carbs to 495, and lower fat slightly to 54 grams.

[Cape1]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Hold on there, I didn't really say that YOU will lose your muscle mass in keto, I said that I did.

I know keto can work wonders for many people, but I think it's better to start with higher carbs (maybe like 150), lower fat, and find out how that goes before going into the ketogenic range. I'm a little over 300 grams of carbs right now and seeing nice quad separation coming out especially in the rectus femoris and vastus lateralis, as well as seeing some pec striations and crazy arm vascularity. I also am not losing size but looking tighter. No flat look yet. My exact macros are at 240 grams of protein, 309 grams of carbs, and 61 grams of fat each day. I haven't even done a refeed yet since my energy levels are still decent and I'm not looking flat. If I do, I'll drop protein to 195, up carbs to 495, and lower fat slightly to 54 grams.

sorry if this appeared to be aimed at you. I was not considering your post, necessarily, when I wrote this. I was making more of general observation about the attitudes toward Ketogenic diets.

I think Laynes article really simplifies this by saying, and I'm paraphrasing, that Keto is good when the clock is against you. If you have the time though a more balanced diet is better.

[burke]

Originally Posted by Sporto1633

Keto gets a bad rep because there seem to be a large number of people that do keto diets that have no nutritional knowledge whatsoever and spout of BS myths to justify why they do what they do. Keto can work fine depending on a person's insulin resistance/sensitivity, but I still hold that you can deplete and carb up completely fine (and actually more effectively) by NOT going into ketosis, but rather keeping carbs below a certain percentage of calories. If you would like a mountain of proof and factual evidence to support this, speak to one of my good friends Lyle McDonald - who just so happens to be labeled the "ketogenic guru". He will even tell you ketosis is pointless if carbs are low enough to get what you want.

Here is my question regarding that... if you take your carbs that low WITHOUT going in to ketosis aren't you going to feel like ****? The reason being that because you are not in ketosis your body would still be looking for carbs energy, and since they are low, but not low enough for ketosis, this would result in you feeling like pure ****. Am I wrong?

[freak31]

Originally Posted by burke

Here is my question regarding that... if you take your carbs that low WITHOUT going in to ketosis aren't you going to feel like ****? The reason being that because you are not in ketosis your body would still be looking for carbs energy, and since they are low, but not low enough for ketosis, this would result in you feeling like pure ****. Am I wrong?

as long as the little carbs your taking are keeping your insulin stable(clean sources) as wel the rest of the macros are fine, i dont see why you would have the hungry feeling/starvation mode.

[burke]

Originally Posted by freak31

as long as the little carbs your taking are keeping your insulin stable(clean sources) as wel the rest of the macros are fine, i dont see why you would have the hungry feeling/starvation mode.

Well im going on words from others. Many competitors that follow your standard non keto diet find that the closer the get to a show the lower their carbs go... the lower their carbs go the more they feel like ****/lethargic/cranky.

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by burke

Well im going on words from others. Many competitors that follow your standard non keto diet find that the closer the get to a show the lower their carbs go... the lower their carbs go the more they feel like ****/lethargic/cranky.

Keto amplifies this, believe it or not. At least in my case.

It's not like if you go slightly above 100 grams or carbs you'd feel worse than at 30 or so.

[tkatmommie]

Originally Posted by burke

Well im going on words from others. Many competitors that follow your standard non keto diet find that the closer the get to a show the lower their carbs go... the lower their carbs go the more they feel like ****/lethargic/cranky.

IMO most precontest diets take you on a severe LOW right near show time, Keto or otherwise, so ask any competitor how great they feel, if they have tons of energy etc on ANY diet and my guess....it is a necessary and TEMPORARY evil before a show.

I had great luck with Keto dieting for shows, but my body responds well to it, as i have friends who have not had as much luck.. Gotta find a diet and training plan that works for you. A little holy water and a small miracle. LOL

[freak31]

Originally Posted by tkatmommie

IMO most precontest diets take you on a severe LOW right near show time, Keto or otherwise, so ask any competitor how great they feel, if they have tons of energy etc on ANY diet and my guess....it is a necessary and TEMPORARY evil before a show.

I had great luck with Keto dieting for shows, but my body responds well to it, as i have friends who have not had as much luck.. Gotta find a diet and training plan that works for you. A little holy water and a small miracle. LOL

spot on.

[BBTake2]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Read my thread in Advanced Nutrition:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?p=319994001

My personal views: keto did nothing for me, and it actually caused significant muscle loss. Not only that, but if you want to look like you lift it's better to eat carbs, simply because keto causes a VERY flat and stringy muscle look. You end up looking like a swimmer more than a bodybuilder. Not only that, but energy levels are HORRIBLE, at least for me they were. Strength went down, muscle went down, and I was in a bad mood all the time.

Keep in mind I was eating about 1.5 g/lb. of bodyweight in protein, and did little to mitigate strength and muscle loss.

Nobody wants to read your crap.

All 5'8 162 lbs at 18% bf.

Nobody cares about your hatred for keto. If you hate it, don't f'n do it you tool.

[freak31]

Originally Posted by BBTake2

Nobody wants to read your crap.

All 5'8 162 lbs at 18% bf.

Nobody cares about your hatred for keto. If you hate it, don't f'n do it you tool.

Take it easy man, i guess hes just stating his personal opinion, its all good.We are all different.

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by burke

Here is my question regarding that... if you take your carbs that low WITHOUT going in to ketosis aren't you going to feel like ****? The reason being that because you are not in ketosis your body would still be looking for carbs energy, and since they are low, but not low enough for ketosis, this would result in you feeling like pure ****. Am I wrong?

If you feel like crap on low carbs, ketosis will be no different. You will feel crap in these 2 basic scenarios:

1) You are stage lean - no matter what approach you use whether it's high/medium/low/keto. Fact is, if you aren't cranky and feel like crap, then you aren't lean enough, plain and simple.

2) You are using the wrong approach because your dieting approach is conflicting with your individual insulin sensitivity/resistance. So if low carbs sucks for you early on, so would keto (until your refeed). If you feel better on keto, you feel just as fine on low carbs. This is an insulin issue that mainly causes this, not preferred fuel source.

Sporto

[burke]

Originally Posted by Sporto1633

If you feel like crap on low carbs, ketosis will be no different. You will feel crap in these 2 basic scenarios:

1) You are stage lean - no matter what approach you use whether it's high/medium/low/keto. Fact is, if you aren't cranky and feel like crap, then you aren't lean enough, plain and simple.

2) You are using the wrong approach because your dieting approach is conflicting with your individual insulin sensitivity/resistance. So if low carbs sucks for you early on, so would keto (until your refeed). If you feel better on keto, you feel just as fine on low carbs. This is an insulin issue that mainly causes this, not preferred fuel source.

Sporto

If this is the case why do so many people report feeling great while IN KETOSIS (under 40g carb) but feel like **** on a low carb diet?

If I diet around 95-120 carbs, like I have before, I feel terrible and my progress and the gym almost back tracks. However when doing the Palumbo diet my energy was great and my strength continued to climb.

As far as feeling like crap on stage... wouldn't that most like be due to the fact you are at extremely low bodyfat levels and are most likely eating a very low calorie diet...

Maybe it's just me but when I diet with high carbs I tend to feel good, low carbs I feel awful, and in keto I feel good. The only reason I can see not doing keto for a contest is because filling out may be difficult.

[ste247]

Originally Posted by BBTake2

Nobody wants to read your crap.

All 5'8 162 lbs at 18% bf.

Nobody cares about your hatred for keto. If you hate it, don't f'n do it you tool.

strong lol..............just give the keto a try for a month if you dont like it do a more normal diet, you have plenty of time if your show isnt untill next year, or are you planning on doing a 7 month cut or somit, if thats the case you will lose serious muscle on any diet on a 7 month cut lol.....imo you have time to experiment a bit..........oh and i think keto is good everyone is differant tho.....

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by BBTake2

Nobody wants to read your crap.

All 5'8 162 lbs at 18% bf.

Nobody cares about your hatred for keto. If you hate it, don't f'n do it you tool.

U mad?