Squatting Dilemma

[dac1]

After quite a bit of research I've decided to come to the brethren of the Workout Equipment section with my squatting dilemma. Brief background: I have two cervical (neck) herniations (diagnosed via MRI and several consultations with a spinal surgeon. Following PT and lifting/posture modifications I do not need surgery. Regular back squats are no longer an option for me. Regular back squats cause numbness, tingling and paid to radiate down both arms and into the hands. I've tried low bar placement and mid bar placement in an effort to keep the bar off the neck. Same results.

So I made the switch to front squats. Worked great until I developed shoulder problems (again diagnosed via MRI, x-rays and consultation with two orthopedic surgeons). No surgery at this point, just rehab and if that fails then surgery becomes more of an option. Front squats place too much pressure on the shoulder and A/C joint. I tried using the Sting Ray, but it still places too much pressure on the shoulder.

I use a York Trap Bar for my deadlifting (regular deads are not an option for the same reasons noted above). These work the legs nicely, but are not the same as squats.

I am not a big fan of leg press machines. I've looked at all the variations: 45 degree lying, hack squats, vertical leg presses, leg sleds such as Powertec's, etc. If I have to go that route, I'd probably go with the Powertec leg sled but I really want to be able to keep squatting. I've also considered roman chair squats http://muscleventures.com/video/2006...ir_squats.html, lunges, step ups, belt squats, etc. etc., but again would really like to keep squatting.

So, finally, to my question. Of the following items, which puts the least amount of stress and pressure on the cervical spine and the shoulders (please note - I don't have access to any of these prior to ordering them online so would appreciate anyone's real world experiences with any of these items particularly as it relates to cervical spine and shoulder pressure):

Safety Squat Bar (I've seen some reviews that suggest the heavily padded yoke places a lot of pressure on the neck).

http://newyorkbarbells.com/im-0210.html


Top Squat (After researching this one I've come to believe my numbness, tingling and pain from regular back squats are due to both bar placement and forcing my shoulders back to grasp the bar. The Top Squat looks like it would allow me to place the bar at a mid range point on the traps without forcing my shoulders back. It also has an indent in the pad to relieve pressure on the neck).

http://www.davedraper.com/mm5/mercha...oduct_Code=TTS


Manta Ray (This item looks like it causes the bar to ride very high up on the neck. Even with the disbursement of the load spread over the shoulders and traps it looks like it would still place pressure on the cervical spine).

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru50.htm


Leverage Squat Machine (These look like the shoulder pads would place most of the load on the shoulders. Not sure how much pressure it would place on the cervical spine. You also appear to be locked into one plane of motion based on the machine's pivot point).

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ptec/lsq.html

As I've written this, I find I'm leaning toward the Draper Top Squat. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Essexlad]

Best option If you can't place loads on your spine or shoulders at all would be belt squats, they are the same movement but with vey little spinal load. Just get a very good belt/harness, they dig in a lot at higher weights and can leave nasty big marks/grazes.

The roman chair squat you mention or sissy squat is not like a back or front squat at all, it's a weird and quite hard exercise that hammers your quads, but not much else.

Havent used most of the things you linked to so I can't comment, although have heard good things about the safety squat bar.

[dumb.bell]

I'm going to leave this to someone more qualified to answer. However, If you live anywhere near Nashville, Tn, you are welcome to try my leverage squat machines. I have a Power Squat (simulates a real squat better than most), and a Hack Squat/Front Squat.

[Wildtim]

I think of the above options that the Top Squat would be the best for you shoulder, I'm not sure about the cervical spine issue though. If this doesn't help with the neck issues I don't think any of the others will help much either, though the manta ray might be a bit more comfortable it would make the shoulder problem worse than just a bare bar.

The very best and of course most expensive option would be to find a belt squat machine. That would avoid all your upper body complications and still allow you to squat normally

[dumb.bell]

This is probably a dumb idea and it would be expensive, but what about those weighted vest, belts, and shorts. I know I've seen the vests that go up to 150lbs, and I would think you could pick up some shorts and possibly a belt that would add another 50lbs to 100lbs (total of 200lbs to 250lbs). How would that work.

This set up goes to 200lbs

[johnderriLLL]

Originally Posted by dumb.bell

This is probably a dumb idea and it would be expensive, but what about those weighted vest, belts, and shorts. I know I've seen the vests that go up to 150lbs, and I would think you could pick up some shorts and possibly a belt that would add another 50lbs to 100lbs (total of 200lbs to 250lbs). How would that work.

This set up goes to 200lbs

its not a dumb idea, but it could be improved. u can do hip belt squats or ball squats.

stuart mcroberts, ur best bet to read up on him.

also u could do tru squat squats.

hope this helps.

[PullBig]

A Safety Squat bar would take the load off of the neck and move it to the traps with not strain on the shoulders. That would be an option.

[vic84875]

For the ''free weight feeling'' ; take a look at Frank Zane leg blaster (..or similar device from other brand, of course..)

http://www.frankzane.com/EQUIPMENT.htm

[ira_est_a_donum]

as far as the top squat goes...a cheap way ive seen this done is with wrist wraps around the bar and pulled out in front of you... i tried it but it wasnt for me...

dont forget sprints, backward sled pulls, sprints with a sled behind you are great for the quads and variety in a leg workout that builds strength, power and size while burning lots of calories and taxing the heart.. i equate these 3 to doing hi rep heavy squatting...bc after a set of each my legs, lungs and heart feel like i tried to squat 325 for 25....at least thats what I remember 325 for 25 to feel like when i was younger...LOL

[dac1]

Originally Posted by Essexlad

Best option If you can't place loads on your spine or shoulders at all would be belt squats, they are the same movement but with vey little spinal load. Just get a very good belt/harness, they dig in a lot at higher weights and can leave nasty big marks/grazes.

The roman chair squat you mention or sissy squat is not like a back or front squat at all, it's a weird and quite hard exercise that hammers your quads, but not much else.

Havent used most of the things you linked to so I can't comment, although have heard good things about the safety squat bar.

I've considered the belt squats, but would probably go with the leg sled over the squats belt for the reason you mention plus the sheer daunting task of hooking and unhooking heavy weights from the belt without a spotter.

The sissy squat/roman chair squat looks like a killer and one I'd do as an additional exercise as I'm not a big fan of leg extensions. Thanks

Originally Posted by dumb.bell

I'm going to leave this to someone more qualified to answer. However, If you live anywhere near Nashville, Tn, you are welcome to try my leverage squat machines. I have a Power Squat (simulates a real squat better than most), and a Hack Squat/Front Squat.

Thanks for the offer. If I lived closer I take you up on it.

Originally Posted by dumb.bell

This is probably a dumb idea and it would be expensive, but what about those weighted vest, belts, and shorts. I know I've seen the vests that go up to 150lbs, and I would think you could pick up some shorts and possibly a belt that would add another 50lbs to 100lbs (total of 200lbs to 250lbs). How would that work.

This set up goes to 200lbs

Not a dumb idea at all. I'd considered combining the roman chair squats with my 100 pound weight vest. Thanks

Originally Posted by Wildtim

I think of the above options that the Top Squat would be the best for you shoulder, I'm not sure about the cervical spine issue though. If this doesn't help with the neck issues I don't think any of the others will help much either, though the manta ray might be a bit more comfortable it would make the shoulder problem worse than just a bare bar.

The very best and of course most expensive option would be to find a belt squat machine. That would avoid all your upper body complications and still allow you to squat normally

I think you're right about the Manta Ray placing more pressure on the shoulder. Cost is a big consideration so a belt squat machine is out (unless I find one cheap on CL LOL). Thanks

Originally Posted by johnderriLLL

its not a dumb idea, but it could be improved. u can do hip belt squats or ball squats.

stuart mcroberts, ur best bet to read up on him.

also u could do tru squat squats.

hope this helps.

I'll look into those. Thanks

Originally Posted by PullBig

A Safety Squat bar would take the load off of the neck and move it to the traps with not strain on the shoulders. That would be an option.

I've read some reviews that suggest the heavily padded yoke pushes the neck forward and places a lot of pressure on the neck - something I don't want. Have you used the SS bar? If so, could you comment on that aspect of it? Thanks

Originally Posted by vic84875

For the ''free weight feeling'' ; take a look at Frank Zane leg blaster (..or similar device from other brand, of course..)

http://www.frankzane.com/EQUIPMENT.htm

I considered that option, but it looks like it would place a great deal of pressure on the shoulders. Thanks

Originally Posted by ira_est_a_donum

as far as the top squat goes...a cheap way ive seen this done is with wrist wraps around the bar and pulled out in front of you... i tried it but it wasnt for me...

dont forget sprints, backward sled pulls, sprints with a sled behind you are great for the quads and variety in a leg workout that builds strength, power and size while burning lots of calories and taxing the heart.. i equate these 3 to doing hi rep heavy squatting...bc after a set of each my legs, lungs and heart feel like i tried to squat 325 for 25....at least thats what I remember 325 for 25 to feel like when i was younger...LOL

I'll look into these Thanks

I am leaning toward the Top Squat. If I go that route, I'll post a review after I try it for awhile. Reps to all.

[Essexlad]

Just a warning, work up to a 100lb weight vest on a sissy squat, some people have problems doing them with bodyweight!

And yeah dedicated belts squats do cost a hefty four figure sum, though you can make one with a low pulley of a lat machine for quite cheap.

I thought of these also;
An ironmind dip belt will hold several hundred pounds+, you can squat with on of those if you hang the weight low enough and stand on two solid boxes so the weight can hang down without hitting the floor; http://www6.mailordercentral.com/iro...sp?number=1310.

or the harness for suspending a bar from your hips, looks quite good just have to use a short bar; http://www6.mailordercentral.com/iro...sp?number=1220)


Yeah it's a pain starting from the bottom, but it's dam good for training explosion out of the hole. (won't avoid marks though i guess)

[new2lifting]

Originally Posted by vic84875

For the ''free weight feeling'' ; take a look at Frank Zane leg blaster (..or similar device from other brand, of course..)

http://www.frankzane.com/EQUIPMENT.htm

cool machine

if I couldnt squat, this would be my next option

[joshdroste]

i know i isnt quite a squat but have you thought of a leg press machine?

[Wildtim]

Originally Posted by new2lifting

cool machine

if I couldnt squat, this would be my next option

The only person I know who has used one has given it a very bad review, he stated that even with moderate (for him) weight the shoulder harness was painful to wear it felt like it was cutting into him.

[PullBig]

The SS bar will not put pressure on the back of the neck if you get in it right and balance it a little further back. If you were holding the handles and paid attention to how you used it I dont think it would put any pressure on the back of the neck. I only feel pressure on my traps when I use mine.

[new2lifting]

Originally Posted by Wildtim

The only person I know who has used one has given it a very bad review, he stated that even with moderate (for him) weight the shoulder harness was painful to wear it felt like it was cutting into him.

no pain, no gain

put some razors on that baby for extra intensity

[Wildtim]

Originally Posted by new2lifting

no pain, no gain

put some razors on that baby for extra intensity

LOL

By the way it was Bodyhard who said it hurt to much that more pain than I want to deal with.

[swinea73]

Single-Leg squats with kettle bells or dumb bells might be a good option for you. I have my athletes do them. Just hold a weight in front of you kind of like a front squat, but you hold it in your hands for balance. Raise one leg in front and use it for counter balance and squat with the other leg. Looks easy but is very hard. I have them use a bench to sit down on until they develop the ability to do the full range of motion.

[animalfan]

Originally Posted by swinea73

Single-Leg squats with kettle bells or dumb bells might be a good option for you. I have my athletes do them. Just hold a weight in front of you kind of like a front squat, but you hold it in your hands for balance. Raise one leg in front and use it for counter balance and squat with the other leg. Looks easy but is very hard. I have them use a bench to sit down on until they develop the ability to do the full range of motion.

sounds like a pistol? do you have them start holding weight or just bodyweight?

[extremenergy3]

Sounds like you shouldn't be doing back squats at all. Inevitably, you will have neck and shoulder strain with back squats and front.

Alternatives can be dumbbell squats (hey, my gym's dumbbells go up to 150. One in each hand, and you've got 300 lbs with no pain. Use straps ).

I also really like walking dumbbell lunges. Kills your entire thighs and butt and creates symmetry. As said above, pistol squats are cool too.

There are a ton of other things to do besides squats for legs. Don't know why you're so adamant about doing back squats. Looking at all those pads and what not to keep the bar on your back seems like a bad idea. Just do other stuff lol

[Turboboy]

I think the belt squats would be the safest for you but I think you should drop the squats all together with the pain and numbness it causes and switch over to something that doesn't. If that means leg presses, then I'd hit them as hard as possible. Tons of people make excellent gains with leg presses. Good luck either way!

[dac1]

Originally Posted by Essexlad

Just a warning, work up to a 100lb weight vest on a sissy squat, some people have problems doing them with bodyweight!

And yeah dedicated belts squats do cost a hefty four figure sum, though you can make one with a low pulley of a lat machine for quite cheap.

I thought of these also;
An ironmind dip belt will hold several hundred pounds+, you can squat with on of those if you hang the weight low enough and stand on two solid boxes so the weight can hang down without hitting the floor; http://www6.mailordercentral.com/iro...sp?number=1310.

or the harness for suspending a bar from your hips, looks quite good just have to use a short bar; http://www6.mailordercentral.com/iro...sp?number=1220)


Yeah it's a pain starting from the bottom, but it's dam good for training explosion out of the hole. (won't avoid marks though i guess)

Amen on the sissy squats and the weight vest- they can be killers. Thanks for the link to the IM squat belt. If my other options don't work, I'll likely try the squat belt.

Originally Posted by joshdroste

i know i isnt quite a squat but have you thought of a leg press machine?

A leg press/ leg sled is my secondary option if the Top Squat or SS bar don't work out.

Originally Posted by PullBig

The SS bar will not put pressure on the back of the neck if you get in it right and balance it a little further back. If you were holding the handles and paid attention to how you used it I dont think it would put any pressure on the back of the neck. I only feel pressure on my traps when I use mine.

I may give this a try if the Top Squat does not pan out.

Originally Posted by swinea73

Single-Leg squats with kettle bells or dumb bells might be a good option for you. I have my athletes do them. Just hold a weight in front of you kind of like a front squat, but you hold it in your hands for balance. Raise one leg in front and use it for counter balance and squat with the other leg. Looks easy but is very hard. I have them use a bench to sit down on until they develop the ability to do the full range of motion.

Great suggestions. I may try these tonight. Thanks

Originally Posted by extremenergy3

Sounds like you shouldn't be doing back squats at all. Inevitably, you will have neck and shoulder strain with back squats and front.

Alternatives can be dumbbell squats (hey, my gym's dumbbells go up to 150. One in each hand, and you've got 300 lbs with no pain. Use straps ).

I also really like walking dumbbell lunges. Kills your entire thighs and butt and creates symmetry. As said above, pistol squats are cool too.

There are a ton of other things to do besides squats for legs. Don't know why you're so adamant about doing back squats. Looking at all those pads and what not to keep the bar on your back seems like a bad idea. Just do other stuff lol

Originally Posted by Turboboy

I think the belt squats would be the safest for you but I think you should drop the squats all together with the pain and numbness it causes and switch over to something that doesn't. If that means leg presses, then I'd hit them as hard as possible. Tons of people make excellent gains with leg presses. Good luck either way!

Why squat with my chronic injuries? Good question. 1) Most of my training has been as a power lifter. Old habits die hard. 2) Squats are one of the best, if not the best, compound lifting movement for developing overall strength. 3) I like squatting. 4) If I can squat safely, without further aggravating my neck and shoulder, then I will. That is why I am looking for options/modifications to the regular back squat. If a Top Squat bar or a Safety Squat bar can keep me squatting, great! If not, then I will switch to a leg sled, belt squats, lunges, or combination of these and/or other exercises for the legs.


I do trap bar deads which places the hands in the same position as the heavy dumbbell squats.

I've ordered the Top Squat bar. After I've given it a try for awhile I'll write a review. Thanks for the all the suggestions.

[johnderriLLL]

u should do lunges anyway they are great for building legs

[strongback31]

try a hack squat machine. Its padded, and easier on you. also dumbell squats

[Mixelflick]

Ironmind hip belt plus a loading pin and two cinder blocks.

You can squat with 500+lbs and zero back pain. Problem solved.

[HardKore79]

Originally Posted by Mixelflick

Ironmind hip belt plus a loading pin and two cinder blocks.

You can squat with 500+lbs and zero back pain. Problem solved.

Im guessing the blocks are to increase the ROM?

[animalfan]

Originally Posted by HardKore79

Im guessing the blocks are to increase the ROM?

yup. i've gotta get some blocks, i'm using a pair of old kitchen table chairs.

[HardKore79]

Originally Posted by animalfan

yup. i've gotta get some blocks, i'm using a pair of old kitchen table chairs.

Doesnt sound too safe...

[animalfan]

Originally Posted by HardKore79

Doesnt sound too safe...

no, it's not. that's why i haven't done belt squats since i tried out my belt/loading pin. the bad thing is home depot is only like 4 miles away and they have blocks for like $2 each.

[HardKore79]

Originally Posted by animalfan

no, it's not. that's why i haven't done belt squats since i tried out my belt/loading pin. the bad thing is home depot is only like 4 miles away and they have blocks for like $2 each.

No, I meant the old kitchen chairs.