Water or milk... - Page 2

sinist3r · 11-12-2008, 09:15 PM

people say to use water because it digests faster. especially post work out. milk is a caseinate protein so its more time released. plus some people dont like the idea of chugging milk after a workout.

**Emma-Leigh** · 11-13-2008, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbailey

better hope its a cooked egg... uncooked eggs have extremely poor bioavailability so your basically getting next to no protein and all the fat from the yolk unless you use egg whites or take the yolk out

Yup.... Something I posted a little while ago in another thread -->

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

I agree with most of Zac's analysis on this shake...

But there is one important thing that Zac forgot to mention and that is that you might want to reconsider the use of raw eggs/raw egg beaters.

Firstly, the digestability of raw eggs is very poor - along the lines of 60%. So you are essentially wasting half of those egg whites as the protein will not make it into your body. There are some articles if you want to read information on them:Digestibility of Cooked and Raw Egg Protein in Humans
Amount and fate of egg protein escaping assimilation in the small intestine of humans

Additionally, eating too many raw eggs can contribute to Biotin deficiency. There is an article on this is called Biotin: the forgotten vitamin. And there is also another article here which has the following information: "Eating raw egg whites: Eating raw egg whites is commonly believed to be the only way to develop biotin deficiency. Although this is not true, consuming raw egg whites is a relatively certain (and quick) way to develop biotin deficiency."

Lastly, in some countries there is also a SMALL risk of contracting diseases such as salmonella (a low risk - but it is still a possibility).

So if you want to use eggs in your shake - cook them first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinist3r

people say to use water because it digests faster. especially post work out. milk is a caseinate protein so its more time released. plus some people dont like the idea of chugging milk after a workout.

Milk is pretty speedy to start digesting... (regardless of the casein in it) - And not only that, but a little casein is actually a very effective PWO supplement -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feleshia

Thanks guys and gals, that's good info. I guess I never really thought about the casein in milk having that effect, duh! I will drink my shakes with water unless it's before bed, thanks!

G'ah!! The message is never going to get through!!

Getting a little casein PWO is REALLY beneficial - and having skim milk is one of the best things you can drink PWO!

To re-post some other posts I have made:

Quote:

Actually milk is great PWO and it is due to not only an ability to rapidly increase insulin secretion, but also because of the unique combination of protein fractions (both caesin and whey).

And yes, milk will actually increase insulin substantially - you have to remember that insulin release and glycaemic index are not always related.

So, although it has a low GI (that is, it has a slow release of GLUCOSE into the blood - mainly because once the lactose is digested in the intestines, half of the carbohydrate content is galactose, and this needs to be processed to glucose in the liver before it is released into the blood) it actually has a very high Insulin index (II).

Milk has a high II because of the unique combination of amino acids (especially the high content of BCAAs) and glucose/carbohydrates. For some reason (most of which is unknown) these things act synergistically. This is also one of the reasons why whey protein also causes an increase in insulin levels - because of the high content of BCAAs.

But if you think about it logically, having milk reacti like this is, in terms of evolution, a very sensible thing to do.

As an infant/baby, you want to grow - and what better to grow than a good dose of insulin combined with an adequate mix of carbohydrates and protein!

So you have an 'instant' hit of energy and nutrient uptake (caused by the glucose component of the lactose when combined with the whey fraction of the milk protein which then act to cause a marked increase in insulin)... But then you do not want your meal to 'dissapear' from the blood too quickly (you want to provide a continuous stimulus for growth) therefore you add in a slower fraction of glucose (galactose) and a slower, anti-catabolic protein fraction (casein).

Milk does not slow the digestion of whey by any great length and the time frame is hardly relavant to anyone who has ensured that they have had a good pre-workout meal.

The milk contains different suspensions of protein. Casein is one. Whey is another. Just because the casein settles in the stomach doesn't mean the whey does as well - infact the vast majority of the whey fraction continues in the liquid fraction of the meal into the small intestine where it is absorbed without any delay.

If you REALLY did not want to delay the absorption of the whey then you would have to take it on an completely empty stomach/intestines - which means you would have to not eat for about 8 to 12 hrs....

Now.... I have been saying that milk is great for PWO for YEARS now... But if you do not believe me... Try to take a look at some of the latest research coming out about optimal PWO nutrition (S. Phillips, Tipton... etc etc)!!

International whey conference This presentation by Dr Phillips states "Bottom Line
SYNTHESIS: WHY = MIX > CAS
BREAKDOWN: CAS = MIX > WHY
OXIDATION: WHY > MIX > CAS
BALANCE: MIX > WHY = CAS
A MIXTURE OF WHEY AND CASEIN MAY PROVIDE AN OPTIMAL BLEND OF PROTEINS TO SUPPORT PROTEIN ACCRETION IN MUSCLE AS A RESULT OF RESISTANCE EXERCISE"

From This t-nation article There is this info "?Research is underway to determine which mix of whey-casein: 100% whey, 75/25, 50/50, 25/75 or 100% casein best improves protein retention after 80% 1RM whole-body resistance exercise. So far (4 subjects), the casein seems to provide a bit higher BCAA and leucine-specific responses in the blood at the 60-minute mark. Watch for protein powder manufacturers to jump all over this research as they design their products next year...."

There is also this article which just states that whey and casein both can help:

Quote:

Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004 Dec;36(12):2073-81.
Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.
Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX
PURPOSE: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. CONCLUSIONS: Acute ingestion of both whey protein and casein after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.

You can also check out this thread for some great info on nutrition around your workouts.

IzzyJ · 11-13-2008, 02:36 AM

Yup.... Something I posted a little while ago in another thread -->
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh View Post
I agree with most of Zac's analysis on this shake...

But there is one important thing that Zac forgot to mention and that is that you might want to reconsider the use of raw eggs/raw egg beaters.

Firstly, the digestability of raw eggs is very poor - along the lines of 60%. So you are essentially wasting half of those egg whites as the protein will not make it into your body. There are some articles if you want to read information on them

igestibility of Cooked and Raw Egg Protein in Humans
Amount and fate of egg protein escaping assimilation in the small intestine of humans

Additionally, eating too many raw eggs can contribute to Biotin deficiency. There is an article on this is called Biotin: the forgotten vitamin. And there is also another article here which has the following information: "Eating raw egg whites: Eating raw egg whites is commonly believed to be the only way to develop biotin deficiency. Although this is not true, consuming raw egg whites is a relatively certain (and quick) way to develop biotin deficiency."

Lastly, in some countries there is also a SMALL risk of contracting diseases such as salmonella (a low risk - but it is still a possibility).

So if you want to use eggs in your shake - cook them first.

Thanks for that i never knew that. learn something new everyday. I don't know how i'd cook an egg before i'd put it into a shake :S but then i'm not having raw eggs often because i don't make smoothies often. still makes me think i might start using natural yoghurt sometimes instead. question - does it matter how cooked the egg is? you know like some people like them runny and some people like them like rubber.

VanillaSie · 11-13-2008, 06:58 PM

I get all fancy with my post workout shake and add several things and blend it in my poor old blender.

For the liquid part, I add egg whites (pasteurized), pineapple juice, and soy milk.

Other yummies include frozen pineapple, flax oil (with DHA), and hemp protein powder.

For the main protein powder I use a combo of soy, rice, and pea (vanilla flavor).

And a handful of ice.

Yummmmm.

VanillaSie · 11-13-2008, 07:42 PM

With the previous raw egg post, I decided to dig up a few research studies for more information.

This first one shows that the digestibility of cooked egg protein is around 90%; whereas, raw egg protein is around 50%. Interesting....

Digestibility of Cooked and Raw Egg Protein in Humans as Assessed by Stable Isotope Techniques
J. Nutr., Oct 1998; 128: 1716 - 1722.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/...urcetype=HWCIT

This next one is a little old (alright, really old), but they not only observed less absorption with the raw, but also observed that the raw caused a more negative nitrogen balance when compared to the cooked. However, in their conclusion they determined that the raw egg did not have any markedly deleterious effects on nitrogen balance.

Supplemental Source of Dietary Protein
J. Nutr., Dec 1949; 39: 555 - 565.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/...urcetype=HWCIT

Apparently all the fuss with raw egg is due to an anti-tryptic compound which inhibits the activity of trypsin and other proteolytic enzymes (enzymes that split protein into small amino acid chains, i.e. helps digest them).

Thus, it is the anti-trypsin compound that causes the lower adsorption.

Also, it is the glycoprotein Avidin that bonds to the biotin so it is excreted instead of adsorbed by our body. Avidin not only bonds to biotin very efficiently, but it can successfully bond to 4 biotin molecules at a time!

Needless to say, I think I will be changing out my egg in my shake to something else.

**Emma-Leigh** · 11-14-2008, 02:56 AM

ps: While on the topic of PWO goodness -->

YUM!

orangechic · 11-14-2008, 09:46 AM

I use water or Almond Milk, every now and then I will use skim milk but I am not a huge milk fan.

Skim milk is actually cheaper than 1% or 2%, just fyi.

_VL · 11-14-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

ps: While on the topic of PWO goodness -->

YUM!

LOL, thanks for the chuckles EL. This video has to be from here in the states. After all, where else would you find recipes where someone mixes cookies in with it?! Why not also throw in some candy bars and fast food cheeseburgers too (LOL) as you can always then chase it down with a diet soda and lots of "weight loss" pills... LOL (and not so LOL as it's sad really).

jlo9sponser · 11-15-2008, 09:50 AM

i use whats in the fridge my dude if we got milk i drink it with milk if not man uppp and get some water lol

doit4fun78 · 11-16-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlo9sponser

i use whats in the fridge my dude if we got milk i drink it with milk if not man uppp and get some water lol

what he said

Gracehbd · 11-18-2008, 09:26 AM

Average cals in everyones' shakes?

mnmiz4me · 11-18-2008, 10:05 AM

half soy milk half water. unless I'm out then it's skim milk..I'm not picky. None of it is wonderful..I just mix drink and keep going

lajwinter · 11-18-2008, 12:18 PM

skim milk or a low sugar juice(w vanilla of course) like diet v8 splash or healthy balance cranberry/pomegranate

**Emma-Leigh** · 11-18-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gracehbd

Average cals in everyones' shakes?

Don't judge your requirements on what other people have - you REALLY need to make your PWO shake for YOU --> based on your body, your diet, your requirements and your goals.

Gracehbd · 11-18-2008, 12:53 PM

I know - I'm getting increasingly frustrated with myself for not having more cals (it's jst so flipping hard to get out of the minimal cal ED mindset). And I certainly won't be switching to water any time soon! Thanks for the concern : )

Megin · 11-18-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lajwinter

skim milk or a low sugar juice(w vanilla of course) like diet v8 splash or healthy balance cranberry/pomegranate

You put PP with juice? Is it a flavorless PP??

Gracehbd · 11-21-2008, 01:21 PM

My protein powder tin suggests juice, so I guess it's normal but I've never tried it myself! It also suggessts adding it to soup, which I have tried - it was SO HORRIBLE! I really felt like I was eating vomit.

blonde10 · 11-26-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlo9sponser

i use whats in the fridge my dude if we got milk i drink it with milk if not man uppp and get some water lol

This.

I use anything on hand: skim milk, 1%, almond, soy, water, or a combination of any of them.