Contest Pics...

[aguy fish]

To be really honest I don't really think listening too much to the body is good when aiming at being ripped to the bones on stage.
The body does not like to be on extremely low bodyfat ! Let also face the fact contest dieting when pushed to the extreme limit to be ripped to the bones is not really "healthy" ( in a medical point of view) otherwise it'd be just so easy to maintain stage conditionning all year round.
*When you say "Striations in glutes, triceps, whatever, it's all a matter of genetic predisposition... " I have to disagree: I had striated glutes for the first time in my life afetr 16 years of competing in 2007, because I worked even harder on HIT cardio, dieted harder and longer than before... I felt like **** , I was sooo tired and I almost gave it all up many times but i'm glad I came through ( on my avatar I was 2 weeks out !). So IMO it's just you have to try harder and accept pro's advice (sporto for instance).You asked for constructive criticisms and you had it.

[Ivan25]

Well then maybe bodybuilding is not for me...

I come in ripped up for 8-12 weeks, 14 was a stretch... And that's ok with me... The rest of the year I don't bodybuild, I will enjoy the benefits of good old fashioned exercise and I really enjoy functional exercise...

I may never get to their level (sporto, layne, fatherflex, etc).. I'm ok with that..

But I tell you what, don't think I won't be competitive on stage.. I could show up as ripped as I am now for the rest of my life and be in the running at many shows.. Maybe I'll just stay amateur and keep winning... Who knows...

I don't just do bodybuilding.. I like athletic training as well... So when I'm ready to bodybuild again, I will prep for 6-12 weeks, have striated pecs, shoulders, x-mas tree, striated calves, split hams, deep quad separation, bicep striations, glute cuts (ive had glute cuts before)... I may never have glute striations, quad striations, tricep striations...

Id rather be healthy doing it...

IF that means never turning pro, so be it.. But I sure enjoyed competing this year!

I also enjoy posing and being on-stage... Frank Zane is my favorite bodybuilder..

[Ivan25]

Here are some pics that do more justice to my conditioning this year.. Could it be better? Yes!! But these show how lean I was... The one attached shows the ham split from the side view... Right under the knee....

Reason legs look smooth sometimes is b/c I forget to HOLD THEM... You can see when I hold them, they are pretty well ripped up... Not as good as others on here, but I dont care about that.. For me, they were better than last year.


Pic---> http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orde...L000542&po=542

Pic---> http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orde...L000497&po=497

Pic--> http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orde...L000537&po=537

Pic---> http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orde...L000575&po=575

[ben2285]

Trap and Tommy are right... You are making excuses for yourself... You say you need to be leaner but then you defend your conditioning to the death. If you want to be leaner like you say you need to put the time and effort into it and stop being stubborn about it.

I am not knocking your work ethic or anything I'm just saying you need to be able to accept the constructive critcism and use it to make yourself better. We need to be humble and open minded in this sport because if we ever think our way is the only and perfect way then we are setting ourselves up for a long, plateau filled road. None of us know all.

I hope my post doesn't offend you because that isn't the aim of it... I am just trying to reiterate the good points that have been made. Hell I know I need to be leaner next time too, and my solution?... longer prep. We are all here to help so I hope you don't take my post as you have taken the ones previously. If you do then as Tommy said you will have a long and frustrating road ahead of you.

[Ivan25]

Originally Posted by ben2285

Trap and Tommy are right... You are making excuses for yourself... You say you need to be leaner but then you defend your conditioning to the death. If you want to be leaner like you say you need to put the time and effort into it and stop being stubborn about it.

I am not knocking your work ethic or anything I'm just saying you need to be able to accept the constructive critcism and use it to make yourself better. We need to be humble and open minded in this sport because if we ever think our way is the only and perfect way then we are setting ourselves up for a long, plateau filled road. None of us know all.

I hope my post doesn't offend you because that isn't the aim of it... I am just trying to reiterate the good points that have been made. Hell I know I need to be leaner next time too, and my solution?... longer prep. We are all here to help so I hope you don't take my post as you have taken the ones previously. If you do then as Tommy said you will have a long and frustrating road ahead of you.

Man you guys are in a colt... Did you not here what I just said? I dont care if I get leaner or not... And I ask for advice b/c I was hoping perhaps there was some productive advice out there... Don't be offended if I dont take advice.. IT's my choice and respect it...

And results? Like I said, I didnt follow advice given last year, won 4 shows this year...

Our philosophies don't match... It's that simple...

[wonderdude2]

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Man you guys are in a colt... Did you not here what I just said? I dont care if I get leaner or not... And I ask for advice b/c I was hoping perhaps there was some productive advice out there... Don't be offended if I dont take advice.. IT's my choice and respect it...

And results? Like I said, I didnt follow advice given last year, won 4 shows this year...

Our philosophies don't match... It's that simple...

You look really good, man. A lot of guys out there would love to have your body. You're a good amateur, and you may even be able to become a weak pro....

But if you want to climb up the ranks in bodybuilding, you've got to listen to the guys who are already up there. When you ask for constructive criticism, be willing to accept it. If bodybuilding isn't for you, that's cool, and I respect that. I just think it's pretty stupid to ask for "constructive criticism" and then attack anyone who gives you criticism that you don't agree with.... especially when they're pros.

You'll never become a top-level pro if you refuse to listen to the guys who are better than you. I'm not a better bber than you, but a lot of the guys in this thread are.

[Ivan25]

Originally Posted by wonderdude2

You look really good, man. A lot of guys out there would love to have your body. You're a good amateur, and you may even be able to become a weak pro....

But if you want to climb up the ranks in bodybuilding, you've got to listen to the guys who are already up there. When you ask for constructive criticism, be willing to accept it. If bodybuilding isn't for you, that's cool, and I respect that. I just think it's pretty stupid to ask for "constructive criticism" and then attack anyone who gives you criticism that you don't agree with.... especially when they're pros.

You'll never become a top-level pro if you refuse to listen to the guys who are better than you. I'm not a better bber than you, but a lot of the guys in this thread are.

I may be a weak pro, but that won't change the fact that I will still be a pro...

And I don't listen to one-view... Dieting longer is the consensus... Well sorry, but I know there is another way...

I've read the research papers on body composition, good studies from Forbes et al.

1--> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

2--> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

I'm not coming back with an empty-rebuttle... It's a well-argued one... B/c I can support my method with research AND personal experience..

I come with both, not just 1...

Thanks for your concern though...

[musclemass22]

You sir.......are an idiot! Strong work ethic, lots of knowledge, good physique, but an idiot. I agree that some people can achieve the type of conditioning of FF, Sporto, etc with shorter, 12-16 week prep but you had better know your body extemely well and know how to manipulate it. That comes with years of experience and staying within striking distance year round, which you do. You keep improving each show which is good, but you need to take the constructive criticism, use what you can and come back better next show. Good luck to you Frank....I mean Ivan

[Ivan25]

Originally Posted by musclemass22

You sir.......are an idiot! Strong work ethic, lots of knowledge, good physique, but an idiot. I agree that some people can achieve the type of conditioning of FF, Sporto, etc with shorter, 12-16 week prep but you had better know your body extemely well and know how to manipulate it. That comes with years of experience and staying within striking distance year round, which you do. You keep improving each show which is good, but you need to take the constructive criticism, use what you can and come back better next show. Good luck to you Frank....I mean Ivan

Take constructive criticism that is opposed to my approach?

That's not being an idiot, actually that's called integrity.

It's easier to follow, than to lead.

But you are right.. I will be back better for it... You can believe that..

[ben2285]

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Take constructive criticism that is opposed to my approach?

That's not being an idiot, actually that's called integrity.

It's easier to follow, than to lead.

But you are right.. I will be back better for it... You can believe that..

There is a difference between respectfully disagreeing and being closed minded. You don't take constructive criticism, you shoot down and bash anything that isn't your approach. It's not called leading if no one else is following.

I know I am wasting your and my time by posting here so I won't continue to do that. Good luck to you.

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by aguy fish

To be really honest I don't really think listening too much to the body is good when aiming at being ripped to the bones on stage.
The body does not like to be on extremely low bodyfat ! Let also face the fact contest dieting when pushed to the extreme limit to be ripped to the bones is not really "healthy" ( in a medical point of view) otherwise it'd be just so easy to maintain stage conditionning all year round.
*When you say "Striations in glutes, triceps, whatever, it's all a matter of genetic predisposition... " I have to disagree: I had striated glutes for the first time in my life afetr 16 years of competing in 2007, because I worked even harder on HIT cardio, dieted harder and longer than before... I felt like **** , I was sooo tired and I almost gave it all up many times but i'm glad I came through ( on my avatar I was 2 weeks out !). So IMO it's just you have to try harder and accept pro's advice (sporto for instance).You asked for constructive criticisms and you had it.

exactly.

do genetics matter? sure. But they will not stop you from being absolutely shredded.

That is all will. Look at kurt weidner. He is a friend and someone i respect greatly but he has an absolutely terrible structure and symmetry, he has no business placing in a pro show, hell even being a pro. But he WILLS himself into the level of conditioning that will just not allow him to be overlooked. As a result he is hardly ever outside the top 3 in a natural pro show. People who complain about genetics need to look at kurt.

[musclemass22]

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Take constructive criticism that is opposed to my approach?

That's not being an idiot, actually that's called integrity.

It's easier to follow, than to lead.

But you are right.. I will be back better for it... You can believe that..

Thats's why I said take the constructive criticism and USE WHAT YOU CAN. What's the point of your thread if you already have it all figured out?

[liftjunkie06]

Ivan sure gets flamed alot of these forums. While everyone has good points, I can see his as well. I also take a similar approach. I don't care about going pro, however. I have maintained good conditioning this year and am only doing a 10 week prep. I don't want to be as lean as alot of these guys. I want an athletic build and a healthy body. The difference for me is that bodybuilding is a hobby, much like fly fishing or the like, and not my life. i already won a very tough drug free for life weight class anyway, and getting up there is the whole point.

I think Ivan is looking to get critiques on his build or posing, not his leanness. Sure, you can say "we can't tell because you aren't lean enough," but from what i can tell it is overall symmetry, muscle maturity, etc. that he is seeking advice on.

While striated glutes, etc. may appear to define the natural pro bodybuilder, some people just don't or choose not to take it to that level. Some seek a balanced, athletic build, with lower BF, but not 3%. Getting down to and being at essential fat levels is questionably unhealthy, not to mention all the crap people use to get there. Not judging, just saying. I took lots of supplements for years.

Having prepped for over 5 months for my last show after an overzealous bulk (I lost 30 lbs), I've come to greatly respect the guys and girls who devote everything to this. That's what it takes to become the best. I watched my 2 year old son eat more than me. However, there are others who don't use alot of supplements, or whatever, and take a different road. I think it's just a matter of perspective.

Ivan, just say thanks, take what you can, and move on. Everyone on here is going to have an opinion, which should be respected unless they're a-holes about it, and some are just different. Keep making improvements and stay healthy, because to me that's really all it is about.

[str8flexed]

i would agree with you but he has stated he wants to be pro. If you just want to do it to have fun and be a good amatuer and not have to go through the riggors of being super lean then that's fine. But don't ask what you can do to turn pro or improve and get pissed when people say you need to get leaner. I fault no one for having their own reasons for competing, but don't throw people's advice back in their faces after you've asked for it. I think that's where the frustration comes from.

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by liftjunkie06

While striated glutes, etc. may appear to define the natural pro bodybuilder, some people just don't or choose not to take it to that level. Some seek a balanced, athletic build, with lower BF, but not 3%. Getting down to and being at essential fat levels is questionably unhealthy, not to mention all the crap people use to get there. Not judging, just saying. I took lots of supplements for years.

what crap are you referring to? Are you insinuating that supplements somehow allow people to achieve extraordinarily low levels of bodyfat that they couldn't achieve otherwise. I"m sorry, that's BS nonsense. Supplements can help a little bit here and there, but the overbearing factor in getting lean enough is simply time and willpower.

and no one is going to starve or hurt themselves at a low bodyfat, so long as you are eating above a minimal calorie intake you'll be fine. Might be tired and a bit cranky, but it's not going to kill you

[liftjunkie06]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

what crap are you referring to? Are you insinuating that supplements somehow allow people to achieve extraordinarily low levels of bodyfat that they couldn't achieve otherwise. I"m sorry, that's BS nonsense. Supplements can help a little bit here and there, but the overbearing factor in getting lean enough is simply time and willpower.

and no one is going to starve or hurt themselves at a low bodyfat, so long as you are eating above a minimal calorie intake you'll be fine. Might be tired and a bit cranky, but it's not going to kill you

As I greatly respect everything you do around here, please don't take insult from this. However, do you, and others for that matter (to not name names) take alot of supplements year round, and more while prepping? I have not seen a fully natural prep on these boards. Are those not intended to enhance performance, decrease catabolism, etc.? And are they not full of artificial colors, sweeteners, compounds, etc., which have been proven in studies to have a possible harmful (surely not beneficial) effect on the body? And isn't the process of getting that lean an act, somewhat, of starvation? Since the body seeks homeostasis, I view it as such. and, being at essential bodyfat levels is potentially dangerous if one is to get an even somewhat serious illness.

Diet is the key, of course. Again, you are a great man and athlete in life and on these forums, and this isn't an attack on supplements. I just choose not to take them, just like you choose to have striated glutes. I never said that supplements themselves are reponsible for straitions.

I apologize if you took insult.

[str8flexed]

you are kidding right?

I am not insulted because I know what I do isn't dangerous, but I don't see how it wasn't meant to be anything other than an 'insult' you are implying that many people couldn't get that lean without taking any supplements. Look supplements might be an aid, but they are not going to carry you there. And i've worked with people who chose not to take fat burners and the like and got plenty lean.

And please don't start on the whole artificial sweetners and colors, i mean come on. All the data has shown they are perfectly safe. Maybe we should live in a cave, only eat what we can kill, and prep that way. Would that be natural? Everyone has their own definition of what 'natural' is. Personally I think it's a ridiculously notion, but calling myself natural is easier than saying i'm a bodybuilder who doesn't take": and then list everything I don't take. Calling myself 'natural' is easier. But please don't try to diminish the accomplishments of people like Tommy, Alberto, Ben, etc who have achieved freaky levels of leanness by someone implying they could not have gotten there without supplements.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of what natural is. I don't think people who take prohormones are 'natural' but they disagree. Fair enough, they are entitled to their opinion, as long as they don't compete in shows where prohormones or banned I have no issue with them. But I don't look down on them or am not on a holier than thou trip for it

I am just not sure how you expected me to take what you said.

[liftjunkie06]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

you are kidding right?

I am not insulted because I know what I do isn't dangerous, but I don't see how it wasn't meant to be anything other than an 'insult' you are implying that many people couldn't get that lean without taking any supplements. Look supplements might be an aid, but they are not going to carry you there. And i've worked with people who chose not to take fat burners and the like and got plenty lean.

And please don't start on the whole artificial sweetners and colors, i mean come on. All the data has shown they are perfectly safe. Maybe we should live in a cave, only eat what we can kill, and prep that way. Would that be natural? Everyone has their own definition of what 'natural' is. Personally I think it's a ridiculously notion, but calling myself natural is easier than saying i'm a bodybuilder who doesn't take": and then list everything I don't take. Calling myself 'natural' is easier. But please don't try to diminish the accomplishments of people like Tommy, Alberto, Ben, etc who have achieved freaky levels of leanness by someone implying they could not have gotten there without supplements.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of what natural is. I don't think people who take prohormones are 'natural' but they disagree. Fair enough, they are entitled to their opinion, as long as they don't compete in shows where prohormones or banned I have no issue with them. But I don't look down on them or am not on a holier than thou trip for it

I am just not sure how you expected me to take what you said.

Never said I was better, never said anything to take away from the athletes here. To the contrary, I commended their devotion and hard work. Please re-read my post. I take a natural whey protein and BCAA's, and that's it. That's my choice. I've been there Layne, and I know that my mindset and hard work got me there. Again, I commend the athletes around here. i'm not ignorant enough to think that supplements are what get people there. If i was, i wouldn't be doing a prep without almost all of them.

and as for the artificial stuff, that is my opinion. if you look at almost all supplements these days nothing is real, it is all created. seems weird to me. But, you especially should know that this is my opinion and I'm not harassing anyone. if you don't like it, just ignore it.

And most people on these boards fit my definition of natural, which is no hormones. you're reading too much into what I said. Too each his own, my man. i just don't think supps work, and the stuff in them is crap, so i don't take them. nothing against those who do. It was a statement of my views, nothing more.

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by liftjunkie06

However, do you, and others for that matter (to not name names) take alot of supplements year round, and more while prepping? I have not seen a fully natural prep on these boards.

again you are entitled to your opinion, but i fail to see how this was not a shot across the bow of others

[liftjunkie06]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

again you are entitled to your opinion, but i fail to see how this was not a shot across the bow of others

Understood, this was not the intent. I'm not even doing this, really, if you look at it. So, i'm no better than anyone else. Just doing what I feel is right for me. If i can't express that, these forums are meaningless.

[str8flexed]

was just pointing out that while we may mean no disrespect... sometimes it comes across anyway.

I have been in the reverse position. Thanks for the clarification

[liftjunkie06]

And thank you for all you do and have done for people in the sport.

No disrespect to anyone else either, so I hope that ends the issue.

[tvicemanXXL]

Originally Posted by Flynn

I would venture a guess that the guys that won Pro Cards this year (or any other), and have yet to compete as a "Pro", would vehemently disagree!

I am absolutely positive they would disagree. But I still think my point is valid. There are probably over 100 shows in the U.S. every year between all the natural organizations that give out Pro status/cards. And there are rarely ever qualifiers for these shows, meaning it could be someone's first show and they win a pro card. That's an awesome accomplishment, but if it were me I wouldn't be so quick to brag. The winner may have an awesome physique, but his competition may have been extremely weak.

And I'm not at all trying to take away from someone else's accomplishments. Hell, I've competed 3 times (2 of which gave out pro cards) and I've got nothing to show for it other than a few trophies. And I went from first place in my second competition to last place in my third competition, which illustrates the point I'm trying to make: I think that some people flaunt their status too much, when there are many, many other people on these boards, who don't have pro cards, and would've completely crushed them in a competition.

[tvicemanXXL]

There is 3-4 completely different arguments and discussions going on in this relatively short thread.

HA!

[cflivinadream]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

exactly.

do genetics matter? sure. But they will not stop you from being absolutely shredded.

That is all will. Look at kurt weidner. He is a friend and someone i respect greatly but he has an absolutely terrible structure and symmetry, he has no business placing in a pro show, hell even being a pro. But he WILLS himself into the level of conditioning that will just not allow him to be overlooked. As a result he is hardly ever outside the top 3 in a natural pro show. People who complain about genetics need to look at kurt.

You're right! check out Kurt:

http://www.kurtweidner.net/

Amazing conditioning but somethings up with his structure!

[Flynn]

Originally Posted by tvicemanXXL

I am absolutely positive they would disagree. But I still think my point is valid.

While granted you are entitled to your own opinion, I won't concede the validity of that point/opinion. And as to not belabor the point, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[tvicemanXXL]

Originally Posted by Flynn

While granted you are entitled to your own opinion, I won't concede the validity of that point/opinion. And as to not belabor the point, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Touche!

[dogg74]

Originally Posted by Sporto1633

They may have been the leanest you've ever gotten your legs to be, still doesn't change the fact that they weren't lean enough. Nobody was saying get "much" leaner, rather you just quite weren't there yet conditioning wise. You had a few weeks left at least....



Anyone who has competed already knows this. Pictures never show anything like what it looks like in person on stage. Ever. Don't waste time trying to justify your condition by stating there were veins that weren't in the pictures. That's almost always the case. Instead, accept the fact that there was still room to go. Everybody ALWAYS underestimates how fat they really are and everybody holds it in different places. Plus, we can't control where the bodyfat comes off as we diet. So it's not wise to think you couldn't have dieted any longer or gotten any leaner by looking at the places where you were lean. Look at the back of your legs and glutes. Are they in? No. Keep dieting. Very simple.



That's a better way to look at it...but we already told you. Diet longer. This isn't some mysterious puzzle we're trying to figure out here. You may THINK you only need 14 weeks because you don't carry a whole lot of fat (that you can see), but clearly you need longer. Accept this and do it next time.



Very incorrect. Dieting for longer than 14 weeks has nothing to do with being out of shape. Plus, like I said, you may not hold a lot of fat where you can SEE it. If you don't believe in prepping for too long, then you need to either a) change your point of view on this, or b) stop trying to figure out why certain areas aren't quite lean enough yet. If you are going to keep as much muscle as possible AND get to the bottom single digits in bodyfat naturally, you MUST do it slow and over a longer period of time. If you refuse to believe this, then you have a long frustrating road ahead of you.



You never know who is going to show up to what show. Heck, you could've turned pro at a qualifier that many people didn't even show up for and in worse shape than a show where you came absolutely dialed in at, but there was a freak of nature that happened to show up too. That's just the way it is. Many phenomenal bodybuilders aren't pro yet, and some people who are really have no business being one. You put up a good track record, but this sport is about competing against yourself. I'd hate to see you spinning in circles next time because of refusing to believe you needed longer to diet to bring the back of your legs in. If you don't, then that's going to be one more thing the judges take into consideration when deciding who turns pro and who doesn't. Take the extra time if you really want to leave no doubt and turn pro.

Sporto

1000% correct! Seen it happen may times..especially with people who win cards against a total of 8 people..then call themselves pro's..then when they have stepped on stage aginst the Big Boys ..They were completely BLASTED!

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I dieted last year for about 20-weeks, and then 6-more weeks and saw NO CHANGE, just MAINTANCE...

That, my friend, is entirely YOUR fault. If that really was the case, then you most certainly did NOT make the right adjustments during the time you saw no change. Plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I don't really know what you guys do, whether you drive yourself to the ground with what many registered dieticians would deem as unhealthy nutritional practices, but I'm one to do things the right way... No deprivation... If I feel like I'm on a DIEt, then I begin eating to change that feeling...

First off all, there is nothing healthy about being a TRUE 3-4% bodyfat for a contest. That's why we aim to get there for a short period of time and then we DON'T stay there. We don't run ourselves into the ground - we simply take our time getting there at a slow pace. It's really only the last few weeks or so (give or take) that become potentially unhealthy, simply because bodyfat is too low. But there's nothing life-threatening about being there for such a short period of time. All of the top naturals pros do it "the right way" while still using several approaches. And we don't deprive ourselves...we simply will ourselves to get to the next level.

And second, the bolded part is why you will never achieve the leanness that the natty pros do. As long as you can accept that, you'll be just fine winning your amateur shows and will no longer need to ask how to be a natty pro.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I got really lean this year eating plenty of fruit at night and eating a healthy well-balanced food intake...

I may never get as lean as many of you, but I'm ok with that... At least for now, until I prove myself wrong in the future when I compete again... And I want to get that lean by doing it the right way.. And if the right way will never get me that lean, then I need to understand the science behind the other ways and weigh the risk-benefit ratio before even considering going in that direction... Unhealthy way would be going low carb intake inducing ketosis, super high protein, feeling hungry, having an altered mental state, etc etc... I felt great this season eating healthy and getting super ripped... Key for me was the cardio and resistance training.

What makes you think we don't get lean doing it the right way? What wrong way are we doing it then, since you seem to know? Low carb is not unhealthy, and in fact, is a healthier approach for some people (mostly IR people). They have MORE energy, MORE strength, and get super ripped...and yes, they are healthy. So you can throw that BS right out the window too.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Striations in glutes, triceps, whatever, it's all a matter of genetic predisposition... I speak from a knowledge-base in exercise science, I don't put much stock into personal opinion. Everyone is different... Some guys have striations in glutes, but no serious quad separation, or there abs are not as tight...

Exactly, because we all hold BF differently. The initial question you had was about your legs essentially coming in last and how to get them leaner, turn natty pro, etc. You at least now know where you will tend to hold onto your BF last. And until you give yourself proper time to get rid of it, your legs will continue to come in the same way.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Trapzilla--> Your triceps are amazing and so are your hamstrings... Really tight.. Super tight... But I thought your abs could be tigher too... Maybe that is a trouble spot for you.. I don't really know...


Sporto---> Probably one of the leannest guys I've seen on here... Abs were amazing and so were quads... But I thought hams could be tighter... And I didn't see quad cross-striations...

Yes, I've definitely got my weak points, and have certainly been hammering away at them this offseason, but since we are critquing, allow me to do the same.

Ivan---> Your upper body was in shape. Congrats. Your legs, well, every single picture you've posted shows them pretty soft and not nearly conditioned enough. At your bodyweight, to win an overall (for a pro card) you are going to need to be as lean as possible because you lack size...and you lack size in your legs even moreso which hurts your symmetry big time. So for you, if the natty pro card is your goal, then get rid of this stupid ego and do what has to be done. Or don't.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I'm far from the level you guys have attained, but the point is, it seems that getting leaner occurs every year until one hits a peak.. I don't really know... Maybe it takes the body time to get used to the process of getting lean and it goes a step further each year... I believe this is a high probability... I will not get any leaner this year, but when I began prep next year, I will get as lean as I was this year, and then a step further most likely...

I seriously hope you don't believe this...and if you do, well then best of luck to you trying to get your body used to getting lean.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

What I know is this is a trial and error type thing... Once we get to a point of being as lean as possible for ourselves, hopefully someone will write a book on it, taking John Hansen's book Natural Bodybuilding to a whole new level.. His book only scratches the surface of where natural bodybuilding is today...

Of course it's trial and error. But, tyou can greatly sharpen your learning curve dramatically by listening to those who have been where you want to go, and have what you want.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I know you guys are pressed for time and you reply quickly, but I have a master's & bachelors degree in exercise physiology... Excuse me, but I need more than a simple reply stating "Diet longer" the body burns fat slowly....

Ok then Mr. Masters and Bachelors degree...with all that knowledge you have, what else is it rather than dieting longer (when referring to the leanness of the legs)? What kind of magic, voodoo, or bull**** answer are you looking for?

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I started my prep at 168 lb, in 14-weeks, got down to 160... That's less than 1lb/week... Hence, I did prep slowly and subtly...

My body just plateaued once and for all...

Which was a great pace, until you got it in your head that your body plateaued and you couldn't do anything about it. THAT RIGHT THERE is why you failed to get your legs where you wanted them, to get your natty pro card, etc. You didn't have it mentally to do what it takes. Period. Change your mindset and attitude and you'll be doing a lot better, not only in this hobby, but in life in general.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

But I still don't understand the logic to getting the glutes rock hard, or the quads with cross-striations or triceps with cross-striations...

This is a science to me, not just a way of doing well at shows..

There is a difference between being lean, and being lean with the muscular development and the right fluid balance to show off such cross striations and having a rock hard look. For instance, you had a conditioned upper body, right? Did you have cross striated triceps? If not, that might be a muscular development issue (i.e. training) rather than a low bodyfat issue. But, like with your legs, you weren't lean enough to even tell that. If you were, then you might be getting a little different answer to your original question.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

So now overtraining is a good thing??

B/c I didnt give up.. I just listened to my body and realized it was time to stop...

Overtraining? Are you serious? You don't even get close to overtraining if your routine is in balance. You listening to your body THINKING it was time to stop, instead of making another tiny adjustment and keeping at it, is probably the number one reason why your legs looked soft and not well conditioned.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Well the same thing happened last year, and I came in harder than ever this year.. And had success in competition as well.. So actually, I did quite alright on my own... I have the freedom of choice to choose who to listen to and who not to listen to...

And since you seem to be doing so well on your own, this will be your last post asking for help or advice then, won't it?

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Well then maybe bodybuilding is not for me...

I come in ripped up for 8-12 weeks, 14 was a stretch... And that's ok with me... The rest of the year I don't bodybuild, I will enjoy the benefits of good old fashioned exercise and I really enjoy functional exercise...

Bodybuilding doen't mean competing in competitions. Bodybuilding is what EVERYONE does when trying to exercise for better health no matter what the individual goal is. Old people "bodybuild" by walking, stretching, and doing active things. Women "bodybuild" by doing yoga, eating healthy, and trying to maintain overall well-being. Non competitive guys "bodybuild" by simply tying to improve something about themselves physically that they are unhappy with. You do too bodybuild in the offseason...just because you aren't dieting for a contest doesn't mean you aren't trying to build a better body.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I may never get to their level (sporto, layne, fatherflex, etc).. I'm ok with that..

I don't mean this in a negative way, but with your attitude and mindset, I can assure you that you never will unless they change.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

But I tell you what, don't think I won't be competitive on stage.. I could show up as ripped as I am now for the rest of my life and be in the running at many shows.. Maybe I'll just stay amateur and keep winning... Who knows...

No one said you wouldn't. You asked about being a natty pro and about your legs not being in the condition you wanted them to be in. People do contests for different reasons. If this is all you want out of bodybuilding, then keep doing what you are doing, because it's obviously making you happy.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I don't just do bodybuilding.. I like athletic training as well... So when I'm ready to bodybuild again, I will prep for 6-12 weeks, have striated pecs, shoulders, x-mas tree, striated calves, split hams, deep quad separation, bicep striations, glute cuts (ive had glute cuts before)... I may never have glute striations, quad striations, tricep striations...

Id rather be healthy doing it...

And natty pros don't? This is a hobby for just about every single natty pro. Why? There's simpy no money competing as a natural pro. Period. This is simply a hobby for us as well. So, that comment was pointless as ALL natty pros do MANY other things than competitive bodybuilding. They have families, jobs, etc.

And if you feel like you can prep for 6-12 weeks and get all those things, then why hasn't that been the case yet? Surely with all those trophies you would've figured that out by now, right?

Originally Posted by Ivan25

IF that means never turning pro, so be it.. But I sure enjoyed competing this year!

I also enjoy posing and being on-stage... Frank Zane is my favorite bodybuilder..

And that's the only reason why any of us do what we do, no matter what level...because we enjoy it.

Sporto

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Here are some pics that do more justice to my conditioning this year.. Could it be better? Yes!! But these show how lean I was... The one attached shows the ham split from the side view... Right under the knee....

Yea, there's a line on the side. But the legs still look soft and not well conditioned, especially from the back. Even from the front, your quads don't have very deep cuts at all.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Reason legs look smooth sometimes is b/c I forget to HOLD THEM... You can see when I hold them, they are pretty well ripped up... Not as good as others on here, but I dont care about that.. For me, they were better than last year.


Pic---> http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orde...L000542&po=542

Pic---> http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orde...L000497&po=497

Pic--> http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orde...L000537&po=537

Pic---> http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orde...L000575&po=575

Not sometimes, they look pretty similar in every picture. Quit trying to justify the way your legs look by these comments. Not every picture is going to pinpoint every detail, but there are pictures where you are CLEARLY holding your legs flexed and they are still not up to par with your upper body conditioning wise or size wise.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Man you guys are in a colt... Did you not here what I just said? I dont care if I get leaner or not... And I ask for advice b/c I was hoping perhaps there was some productive advice out there... Don't be offended if I dont take advice.. IT's my choice and respect it...

And results? Like I said, I didnt follow advice given last year, won 4 shows this year...

Our philosophies don't match... It's that simple...

First of all, you mean occult, which there isn't one. Just a bunch of people who clearly recognize your attitude and pointing it out.

Second, you DID care about getting leaner with the legs, that's what started all this. If you don't care about getting leaner, then stop posted threads asking such things. There's plenty of productive advice, and it is your choice to listen or not, but your attitude and the way you do it is very poor.

Since you won four shows...do you have comparison pics of guys in your class at all these shows? Did you win the overall at all 4 of them? How big were the shows themselves? Did anyone come into great condition with the lower body? Winning a show is great, but SEVERAL factors go into who wins, including the questions I asked and many more.

Originally Posted by liftjunkie06

And thank you for all you do and have done for people in the sport.

No disrespect to anyone else either, so I hope that ends the issue.

I will say that it did come off as disrespectful, but I understand what it was you were trying to say.

Originally Posted by tvicemanXXL

I am absolutely positive they would disagree. But I still think my point is valid. There are probably over 100 shows in the U.S. every year between all the natural organizations that give out Pro status/cards. And there are rarely ever qualifiers for these shows, meaning it could be someone's first show and they win a pro card. That's an awesome accomplishment, but if it were me I wouldn't be so quick to brag. The winner may have an awesome physique, but his competition may have been extremely weak.

And I'm not at all trying to take away from someone else's accomplishments. Hell, I've competed 3 times (2 of which gave out pro cards) and I've got nothing to show for it other than a few trophies. And I went from first place in my second competition to last place in my third competition, which illustrates the point I'm trying to make: I think that some people flaunt their status too much, when there are many, many other people on these boards, who don't have pro cards, and would've completely crushed them in a competition.

This is a very good point. I think Flynn was disagreeing with the way you put it, but not all shows are created equal. You never know who is going to show up in what shape. Getting the actual card is one thing, but actually having a physique worthy of any kind of placing in a top natty pro show is something COMPLETELY different.

Sporto