I sent my (anti low carb) dad a website of "Why You'd do Low carb"...He replies

[Starky1177]

1st thing, my dad is completely ignorant on the subject....

I sent him a link to a website that explains why someone would do lowcarb

he replied with (excuse any spelling or grammar errors, he didn't plan on this being shown publicly)

__________________________________________________ _______

k,Ok...It just doesn't seem right to me...If you go to the American Heart association, they say to stay away from all that stuff (eggs, cheese, fat) as it clogs blood vessels...I would think that a well balanced diet in moderation is better for you health wise in the long run than just eating one food group forever....seems to me that sailors died from scurvy because they didn't get fruit and veges on long boat trips, but they had goats and pigs to eat...Just dont want you to do something that hurts in the long run...Knew a guy I used to work with that hated fruits and veges, loved butter and animal fat......died before he was 48...heart attack.....You might want to get a different perspective from the medical community....remember, guys like Atkins and south beach had a motive (profit) for "selling" their weight loss programs....Also Have to remember that the ancestors that the guy in your article refers to who only ate meat died when they were 40 (average life expectancy)....Remember, we love you and are only looking out for you...."kids do the darnedest things"....dad

__________________________________________________ _________


Interesting eh? I'm guessing most of your parents that don't support keto (and that are completely ignorant on the subject) think along the same lines

I'm going to give a rebuttal, but can someone else who's even more well versed in keto really knock him on his ass?


I was going to say something like this:

"Hey there, my rebuttal..Ancestors died because They didn't have medical knowledge and it was 100 times more dangerous to live back then. Notice how diabetes, Obesity and Heart Diseases Popped up so recently..."


Before I stopped and decided to make this thread

[ambo33]

Typical uninformed response to the diet.

My father was big on atkins so totally understand the science behind it and supports both me and my brother. He did atkins and lost 40lbs in 2 months on it. Very successful for him.

He actually schooled ME a little bit on the subject and actually offered me good meals

[Starky1177]

I guess the only thing im really struggling with the response is the response to his AHA argument, how would one convince someone that they're wrong?

[phabphour20]

http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php...ol4n2/diet.xml

-PP

[gixxer0.6g]

I'm still mixed on this. I've tried them all and for me this is what I've found. For weight loss the keto diet works great. It's main drawback is the social side of things and trying to find foods you can eat. I've also had good results with a low fat, moderate carb diet as well. It takes longer but I feel healthier knowing I'm eating all food groups in moderation. For me this is the better solution because health concerns will take precedence over speed of weight loss. Your dad does have some good points there that you may want to consider. It's always better to be safe than sorry. It's not like you can't cut on a low fat, moderate carb diet. It just takes longer.

[Starky1177]

I think this is what im going to write

Hey there, Alright here's my rebuttal:

1.) The AHA (and any other Government health agencies) committed a long time ago, when no better knowledge was known to create a diet that was very high in Carbohydrates...Even though this kind of diet has lead to an epidemic of heart disease, diabetes and Obesity. Also they are backed by the agriculture industry who would be extremely pissed if they changed it (Money talks)...And even if they wanted to change it, they couldn't because they would lose all credibility. So they push low fat diets because they're basically paid to, and they don't want to be wrong, even if it has caused heart disease, Diabetes and obesity.

2.) Sailors didn't have or take multi vitamins and didn't eat vegetables like those on Low carb diets do (or are supposed to)...broccoli has more Vitamin C than most fruits, and most other important nutrients in it

3.) And I bet your friend didn't work out and do cardio on a daily bases, nor did weekly or bi weekly carb refeeds, and obviously didn't eat his vegetables or take Multi Vitamins (which I do)

4.) Our ancestors, lived a MUCH more dangerous life than we did, they had to hunt, and always having food wasn't a sure thing, and didn't know anything about treating wounds or anything medical, so small injuries could even lead to death. Not to mention, the point of talking about our ancestors was that the fact that they evolved eating low carb for millions of years, and our body is evolved to work better with that (as that article explains better than I do) . Eskimo's and other natives that live way up north, are practically devoid of obesity, diabetes and heart diseases, which are product of high carb diets

[Starky1177]

Nvm.....comp messed up...>Ended up sending that....I wonder how he'll respond

[mar999]

heres another point on life expectancy. Infanty mortality rates were much much higher in the past than they are today. This can create a big disparity between life expectancies in the past and today. Plus advances in medicine which are keeping people alive longer. I don't think diet is at all a factor in expectancy.

[Starky1177]

Diet is a (huge) factor...when you become obese, get diabetes or heart disease....and otherwise its still a big factor

but good point

[mar999]

yeah i see your point but i think you misunderstood me... I would argue that diet has no effect on the life expectancy being shorter for our ancestors. If they had our diet today i think that would cause a shorter life expectancy. I think advances in medicine have compensated for poor nutrition. They did not have to worry about heart disease and diabetes as much. We have created problems and then created reactive solutions

[Knux]

Send him a rebuttal with quotes from Layne's saturated fat/cholesterol article!!

[Starky1177]

They didn't have to worry about it because, they weren't able to eat the food that will give you those things....if you dont eat healthy you wont be healthy, not being healthy will effect your life expectancy greatly

[mar999]

exactly

[Notts_Ben]

tell him how the typical diet which is pretty much ok with the AHA is full of crap. Explain about how sugar = insulin = bad (unless controlled).

Also, tell him that on this diet we eat tons of vegatables no problems! I'm eating more veg and better food now than when I was eating more carbs.

Make clear to him the fact that diets low in fat and high in carbs have gone up while obesity is worse than ever!

Tell him your eating plenty veggies with each meal (u should be) and tell him your having your unsat fats (nuts/flax oils/fish oil/avacado) as well as the saturated fats.

Tell him how before western diet was introduced into many cultures they never heard of heart disease.

Ask him when the last time a lion died of heart disease lol.

Oh yeah tell him that eating cholestrol has little/no affect on your cholestrol. Also, tell him u need cholestrol for certain hormones and to feel good (seretonin).

[mc4_a]

Originally Posted by gixxer0.6g

I'm still mixed on this. I've tried them all and for me this is what I've found. For weight loss the keto diet works great. It's main drawback is the social side of things and trying to find foods you can eat. I've also had good results with a low fat, moderate carb diet as well. It takes longer but I feel healthier knowing I'm eating all food groups in moderation. For me this is the better solution because health concerns will take precedence over speed of weight loss. Your dad does have some good points there that you may want to consider. It's always better to be safe than sorry. It's not like you can't cut on a low fat, moderate carb diet. It just takes longer.

Yes, this.

[mrmoose63]

You may want to take a look at Good Calories, Bad Calories... it has a load of information about how our nutritionally healthy "standards" came to be.

[DecemberDays86]

If your dad keeps on quoting health authorities, show him these journal papers...

Just be warned that the second and third papers were supported by grants from the Atkins Foundation and people might discredit them for that reason.

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/140/10/769

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/134/4/880

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/7/1879

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

[Starky1177]

OK i got a response from my dad, who apparently passed it off to my step mom whos a little less ignorant on the subject and more intelligent when it comes to nutrition all around heres what she wrote:

__________________________________________________ ____________


* AHA - only recently heavily weighted the pyramid to mostly carbs and there is a fair amount of research on the fact that it is not necessarily good. It used to be much more balanced toward a mix of fruits, veg, protein,carbs. This really does not support the case and demonizes "big cereal" - sounds like conspiracy craziness. Don't you think "big beef" had a hand in it too?
* True - simple sugar is bad. totally understand the science, agree. We are not talking chocolate cake here - we are talking the occasional bit of corn or a peach
* sailors didn't eat broccoli nor have vitamins 300 yrs ago and had scurvy from crackers and meat. A broad based diet is necessary to ensure that over time, you get a solid mix of vitamins (no one is sure that supplements actually do the job)
* Exercise and looking fit do not trump diet nor prevent clogged arteries - google Jim Fixx
* If carbs are so fattening, why are the Asians so slim and "are practically devoid of obesity, diabetes and heart diseases, which are product of high carb diets"? Could it be that portion size/calories are the issue? Could it be that Americans just eat too much junk (fries and Cokes). There are a lot more calories in a tenderloin that a chicken breast - because it is lower fat.
* Also google nitrate management - an issue with beef - should eat a balance of beef, port, fish, chicken and legumes for protein


__________________________________________________ __

Can you guys help me to rebut to that...A good explanation to the Asian thing would be good, cuz I dont know where to start with that one....Looking over it one more time, she just made some statements...Any good facts on how fruit is not necessary, and how High fat diets wont clog arteries (if we could get a get defining article from a very well respected source then we could flaunt that around) anyone know what?

[ferak]

why bother theyve already made up their mind on the subject and arnt going to change

[Starky1177]

Cuz this is a good time to put them in their place, They always bother me about this when im over, and they're ignorant on the subject and it would be good for them to have some knowledge of it so they can stop bothering me and stop thinking that im going to clog my arteries and die

[ItalWHOP]

This was just posted by another reader, but might be of use to you:

http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php...ol4n2/diet.xml

The adverse effects portion will be good for them to read.

I believe her statement about asians is wrong. The obesity epidemic is catching up with them too. Let me try to find some info.

[ItalWHOP]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in525887.shtml


"After a series of independent surveys in 10 Asian countries, researchers have come up with an alarming conclusion ? millions of people like Prapai in the region have symptoms of obesity, despite their small frames and apparent lack of excess fat.

It is not that Asians have suddenly become unhealthy. It's just that health experts had all along been applying a global standard, known as body mass index, to measure obesity that was unsuited to Asians. "

[ItalWHOP]

Interesting:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthrea...ighlight=asian



http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1885133

"A nutritional survey of the same cohort showed that the intake of rice and pasta was high in diabetics of normal body weight [41]. Thus, in much of Asia obesity and insulin resistance are not due to excess fat in the diet but to the imbibing of carbohydrates in excess of energy needs."

[Tiny Tim]

Originally Posted by Starky1177

I think this is what im going to write

Hey there, Alright here's my rebuttal:

1.) The AHA (and any other Government health agencies) committed a long time ago, when no better knowledge was known to create a diet that was very high in Carbohydrates...Even though this kind of diet has lead to an epidemic of heart disease, diabetes and Obesity. Also they are backed by the agriculture industry who would be extremely pissed if they changed it (Money talks)...And even if they wanted to change it, they couldn't because they would lose all credibility. So they push low fat diets because they're basically paid to, and they don't want to be wrong, even if it has caused heart disease, Diabetes and obesity.

2.) Sailors didn't have or take multi vitamins and didn't eat vegetables like those on Low carb diets do (or are supposed to)...broccoli has more Vitamin C than most fruits, and most other important nutrients in it

3.) And I bet your friend didn't work out and do cardio on a daily bases, nor did weekly or bi weekly carb refeeds, and obviously didn't eat his vegetables or take Multi Vitamins (which I do)

4.) Our ancestors, lived a MUCH more dangerous life than we did, they had to hunt, and always having food wasn't a sure thing, and didn't know anything about treating wounds or anything medical, so small injuries could even lead to death. Not to mention, the point of talking about our ancestors was that the fact that they evolved eating low carb for millions of years, and our body is evolved to work better with that (as that article explains better than I do) . Eskimo's and other natives that live way up north, are practically devoid of obesity, diabetes and heart diseases, which are product of high carb diets

Actually, I will assure you that his friend didn't cut our breads, pasta, potatoes, etc.. The State of Ketosis has been proven to cause the heart to be 28% more efficient than any other type of diet (according to Dr. Eades.) people keep forgetting that Atkins was A HEART SPECIALIST. Why would a heart specialist put his patients on a diet that he would think might kill them? Evidently, he didn't kill them, because he was putting them on this diet for almost 30 years!


The mixture of flours and oils is what I personally believe causes plaque in your blood vessels; think about it this way. Have your dad eat a piece of white bread and then go look at his teeth. In between will be filled with all sorts of mush....well breads, pasta, etc become like glue in your system.

One of the first things you'll notice when you go on a keto diet, is that your teeth feel clean all the time once you get into ketosis - even right after you eat - because you have eliminated the food that clings to your teeth - which is mainly wheat products.



Tim

[Starky1177]

Any good studies that show that high fat, low carb diets dont clog arteries?

[ItalWHOP]

Originally Posted by Starky1177

Any good studies that show that high fat, low carb diets dont clog arteries?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

"and the data suggest that some form of carbohydrate restriction is a candidate to be the preferred dietary strategy for cardiovascular health beyond weight regulation."


http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/140/10/769

"Compared with recipients of the low-fat diet, recipients of the low-carbohydrate diet had greater decreases in serum triglyceride levels (change, ?0.84 mmol/L vs. ?0.31 mmol/L [?74.2 mg/dL vs. ?27.9 mg/dL]; P = 0.004) and greater increases in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels (0.14 mmol/L vs. ?0.04 mmol/L [5.5 mg/dL vs. ?1.6 mg/dL]; P < 0.001). Changes in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol level did not differ statistically (0.04 mmol/L [1.6 mg/dL] with the low-carbohydrate diet and ?0.19 mmol/L [?7.4 mg/dL] with the low-fat diet; P = 0.2)."


http://www.research.va.gov/news/pres...iet-052103.cfm

"Obese patients on a low-carbohydrate diet for six months lost more weight and fared better on certain cardiovascular and diabetes measures than patients on a low-fat, calorie-restricted diet, according to a Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) study appearing in the May 22 New England Journal of Medicine."

"The authors said the study results underscore the paradox of America's fascination with low-fat eating: Americans are taking in less fat, but not losing weight or improving their cardiovascular health as a result."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12097663


"There were significant decreases in fasting serum TAG (-33%), postprandial lipemia after a fat-rich meal (-29%), and fasting serum insulin concentrations (-34%) after men consumed the ketogenic diet. Fasting serum total and LDL cholesterol and oxidized LDL were unaffected and HDL cholesterol tended to increase with the ketogenic diet (+11.5%; P = 0.066). In subjects with a predominance of small LDL particles pattern B, there were significant increases in mean and peak LDL particle diameter and the percentage of LDL-1 after the ketogenic diet. There were no significant changes in blood lipids in the control group. To our knowledge this is the first study to document the effects of a ketogenic diet on fasting and postprandial CVD biomarkers independent of weight loss. The results suggest that a short-term ketogenic diet does not have a deleterious effect on CVD risk profile and may improve the lipid disorders characteristic of atherogenic dyslipidemia."


http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/7/1879#T1

"Numerous studies now suggest that high-carbohydrate diets can raise TAG levels, create small, dense LDL particles, and reduce HDL cholesterol (i.e., atherogenic dyslipidemia)—a combination along with insulin resistance, that has been termed syndrome X (42Citation ,43Citation ). Syndrome X is postulated to be resistance to insulin-mediated glucose disposal by muscle (44Citation ), 30% of adult males and 10% to 15% of postmenopausal women have this particular syndrome X profile, which is associated with several-fold increase in heart disease risk. Replacing saturated fat with carbohydrate appears to accentuate insulin concentrations and the atherogenic dyslipidemia associated with syndrome X (44Citation ,45Citation ). The ketogenic diet in this study resulted in favorable responses in fasting TAG, postprandial lipemia, HDL-C, LDL particle size, and insulin levels in healthy normolipidemic men. Although the duration of the diet was short (6 wk), these data suggest that a ketogenic diet does not have an adverse effect on accepted biochemical risk factors for CVD and improves those associated with syndrome X."


http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...67527305011666

"The LCKD with nutritional supplementation led to beneficial changes in serum lipid subclasses during weight loss. While the LCKD did not lower total LDL cholesterol, it did result in a shift from small, dense LDL to large, buoyant LDL, which could lower cardiovascular disease risk."

[DecemberDays86]

Originally Posted by Starky1177

Any good studies that show that high fat, low carb diets dont clog arteries?

My previous post here (#17) has an article about the "cardiovascular effects" of lowcarb diets. That should answer you question...

The article attached here has a nice graph on its 5th page showing that a keto diet beats the pants off of a low-fat diet in many areas in people who follow the diets for 12 weeks. This article came out Feb 2008. It also talks about how keto can help in the area of fat desposits in arteries.

[kenckar]

You should send this link
http://webcast.berkeley.edu/event_de...ebcastid=21216

to your dad.

It is Taubes Berkeley lecture. It's a lot easier and shorter than the book and goes a long way towards demonstrating the issues.

[grapemaster]

look at the american indians diet...

hah, posting in here again...considering doing a quick 4 week keto cut

when I do keto though I do a mini carb up twice a week... which I think is more on lines of health wise. feast/famine...and keeps insulin in check.

[BeejGrpA]

Originally Posted by kenckar

You should send this link
http://webcast.berkeley.edu/event_de...ebcastid=21216

to your dad.

It is Taubes Berkeley lecture. It's a lot easier and shorter than the book and goes a long way towards demonstrating the issues.

thats so fukking awesome. i loved that lecture. i really wanna shake gary's hand, i hav so much admiration for what hes done