Serious Discussion On HIT/Heavy Duty/Abbreviated Training

[all pro]

Originally Posted by bania

That just doesn't appear to be the case, Bob. Did you even READ what I posted?

Here, let's try again: "an actual high velocity movement in training exercises is not necessary to produce a high velocity specific training response."

Behm, D. G., and D. G. Sale. 1993. Intended rather than actual movement velocity determines velocity-specific training response. Journal of Applied Physiology 74: 359-368.

You said "have to." You don't HAVE to. Your comment is on par with DF1's infamous, "some Type II fibers are ONLY recruited by really fast speeds", i.e., just plain absurd.

Not to mention the higher probability of injury, which is obvious.



No.

Your comments regarding "slow" lifting in the gym making you "slow" on the field is also absurd. Use some common sense here. I'll help:

1. As you've stated yourself, there are NFL teams that use "HIT" and thus train "slow" and don't do plyometrics or Olympic lifts. By your logic, these teams should be blown off the field every time they play a team that uses "fast" speeds and plyos. They shouldn't win a single game at that elite level. Yet somehow, those teams somehow win.

2. This is the point you really need to get: EVERY movement in the gym is "slow" compared to what you do on the field! Think about this: can you move a weight anywhere near as fast as you move WITHOUT a weight on the field? You can bench 135lbs as fast as possible, but guess what, it isn't gonna move as fast as your limbs WITHOUT a weight, or the weight of a football.

So by this logic, just lifting weights in the gym AT *ANY* SPEED will make you "slow" on the field. Obviously that isn't the case.

I suggest you read up on something called "The Principle of Specificity" to help explain why that's the case.

You know "all pro", I gotta be fair. In general, your advice isn't bad. You're a big proponent of abbreviated training. You're a fan of Arthur Jones' original "HIT." I agree with you to a large extent on diet. You're just off on a few things, namely rep speed, and "optimal" set/rep schemes (there ain't such animal).

The reason why I'm a bit hard on you is that you attack certain folks for no reason (like MR and Awnold) and just make things up to further your case (like I negged you).

Um first off my name isn't Bob. ??? Secondly you have a mental problem that is prohibiting you from accepting anything other than your own narrow minded preconceived ideas. I've listed 3 that is THREE different methods for increasing speed, strength and power. For best results use them all. The worlds FASTEST and MOST POWERFUL athletes do. The proof is in what D1 and I have already posted. I'm not having this discussion with you. You've already lost the argument. I'm sorry you got it wrong in your HIT FAQ. You can always correct your error in V4.
You aren't baiting me into a discussion about MR or Awnold.
Did you neg me? I had so many as a result of that thread I may have been mistaken. Oh look at that, I can admit maybe being wrong. NOW reread what I wrote about speed very, very carefully. I think you missed my point.
RFD = 3 sets of 3 reps @ 90%. The bar speed won't be fast although the intent to move it as fast as possible certainly is. Compensatory acceleration = lite weight approximately 70% of a 1 rep max lifted as fast as possible for 8-10 sets of 2-3 reps. Explosive starting strength = O lifts and their cousins.
My answers aren't 'exactly' the same as what D1 posted. Again reread the posts.
For sarcoplasmic hypertrophy use a normal rep speed in the higher rep ranges, 8+.


The Arthur Jones Collection
Nautilus Bulletin #1
16
Speed as a Factor
Using normally applied methods, it is literally impossible to accurately measure strength and the figures
produced by most currently practiced methods of testing strength have little or no significance. Strength is the
ability to produce power ? and while it is extremely difficult to measure strength directly, we can measure
power; and having done so, a reasonable estimate of strength can be made. "How much can he press?" is a
meaningless question ? unless we also consider "how far does he press?" and "how fast does he press?" Both of
which points ? distance and speed ? are generally ignored in strength tests.
During a recent workout, one of our test subjects was accurately tested while generating slightly over three
horsepower; disregarding the power required for raising a good part of his own bodyweight, he raised 275
pounds a distance of over two feet in less than one third of a second.
http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Bulletin1/16.PDF

[TheAdlerian]

Originally Posted by paps8

Ive been reading everything I can find about HIT for about a month. When I came across Arthur Jones and the Colorado EXperiment I automatically thaught it was a crock of ****. In the mean time went to a local vitamin shop to check my body composition and the owner turned out to be a HIT Jedi (I love that term). After discussing HIT for about 2 hours he gave me a routine that he said would pack on muscle twice as fast as the high volume training(that i made great gains with) i had been doing. I was skeptical but I decided to give it a try. Sure enough, yesterday after only eight days I returned to check my progress and I was stunned by the results. At first I was dissapointed because I only gained a pound on the scale, but it turned out I dropped 2% bodyfat, which means I lost 2 pounds of fat and gained 4 pounds of muscle IN 8 DAYS! NATURALLY. So far I can say I am very satisfied and if this continues Ill never turn back.

I'm trying the two day a week full body version of Hit. What program did he suggest for you?

Keep it basic if you like.

[Orlando1234977]

Originally Posted by Defiant1

Mel Siff cont:

The sequence of recruitment of muscles fibers by exercise also has important consequences for training. The ST (Type I) fibers are recruited first for muscle tension up to about 25%, the FTa (Type IIA) are recruited next and the FT (FF or Type IIX) fibers last, as the intensity of the activity increases towards a maximum or as the ST fibers become seriously energy depleted. (See below)

Hmm, does this suggest that the FT fibers are the last to recruit and exhaust?

Notice, FT fibers are recruited as the intensity increases towards a maximum or the ST fibers become seriously energy depleted. Sounds like they're needed as you approach failure, as the ST are becoming energy depleted.

[BIO-FORCE]

Originally Posted by Kelei

Thanks for posting that, an interesting read. Now that I have read it I now what you are talking about. It's simply stating the difference between explosive strength and maximal strength.

The take home message from this is that you should attempt to lift a weight as fast as possible regardless of load and actual movement speed. In competitive powerlifting the lifts take longer than 0.3 seconds to complete so at the end of the day it will still be maximal strength and not explosive strength that determines how much a powerlifter can lift. Maximal strength is the limiting factor in competitve powerlifting, explosive strength is the limiting factor in olympic lifting.

Hi Kelei,

That is not "exactly accurate" if you increase your "explosive" (RFD) then if your Maximal Strength " stays the same, you will lift more because the load will be moving faster, and take less MAX STRENGTH to maintain that speed.

That is the whole reason PL's address RFD in their training.

Originally Posted by Kelei

Maximal strength will not improve explosive strength, but also explosive strength can not improve maximal strength, why such advaned lifters would be training for explosive strength is quite amusing.

The following line from the article proves that maximal strength will not improve explosive strength;

"If the time available for force development in a sport exercise is short (less than 0.3 s), the rate of force development rather than maximal strength itself is a deciding factor"

That is true.

Originally Posted by Kelei

Also the following line from the article states that improvements to explosive strength will not improve maximal strength;

"Therefore, the method of dynamic effort is used not for increasing maximal strength but only to improve the rate of force development and explosive strength."

All powerlifting lifts take longer than 0.3 seconds to complete so maximal strength is the deciding factor, therefore explosive strength is of no relevence to powerlifting.

That is not true. The reason Max Stength won't help in your first example is that the "time" is too short (little).

However in your second example, both "explosve and max" have plenty of time to do what they do.

Originally Posted by Kelei

**** I'll try and simplify this mess, basically the conclusion is -

Because powerlifting lifts take longer than 0.3 seconds to complete it means that rate of force development is irrelevent, this would render any improvements in explosive strength completely useless to a powerlifter, maximal strength will be the only deciding factor.

That too is inaxccurate. If time is a restriction Explosve is your best bet. If it is not, "BOTH" can be implemented.

Hope that makes sense.

[s4lnj]

RFD = 3 sets of 3 reps @ 90%. The bar speed won't be fast although the intent to move it as fast as possible certainly is. Compensatory acceleration = lite weight approximately 70% of a 1 rep max lifted as fast as possible for 8-10 sets of 2-3 reps. Explosive starting strength = O lifts and their cousins.

cool-- it only took 40 pages and 2.5 months to get a 3 sentence answer to what i was looking for!!!!

[N@tural1]

What books would you recommend for me to read on these subjects and more?

Any personal favorites that are a must read?

Thanks guys!

[paps8]

Originally Posted by TheAdlerian

I'm trying the two day a week full body version of Hit. What program did he suggest for you?

Keep it basic if you like.

Its the basic bodypart split that i had been previously using (Monday:Legs/abs Wednsday:Chest/Back Friday:Shoulders/Arms) except with only 2 sets of 1 exercise per bodypart to failure.

Monday: Leg press 2 x 6-12(starting with 6 reps to failure until you can perform 12 with the same weight and then bumping up the weight to where you can only perform 6 again, the same goes for all exercises)
Leg curls 2 x 6-12
Calf raises 2 x 6-12
Machine crunches 2 x 6-12

Wednsday: Machine Flyes or Bench Press 2 x 6-12
Pulldowns or Rows 2 x 6-12
Shrugs 2 x 6-12
Deadlifts or Hyperextensions 2 x 6-12

Friday: Seated Press 2 x 6-12
Machine Curls 2 x 6-12
Tricep Extension machine, Skullcrushers or Closegrip Bench 2 x 6-12
Reverse curls 2 x 6-12
Wrist curls 2 x 6-12

Each Set should be taken to complete failure with emphasis on the negatives


Its nothing crazy but its producing great results for me.

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by britlifter

What books would you recommend for me to read on these subjects and more?

Any personal favorites that are a must read?

Thanks guys!

For this type of info, "Supertraining" by Mel Siff can't be beat.

[nabil]

hello guys, i see a lot of people with experience here and i really want to learn from you guys. What do you think about full body workout? my program is: Monday: 2 exercise of chest superset with 2 exercise of back
2 exercice of leg
2 exercise of shoulder superset with biceps and triceps
every exercices have 5 set of 10 reps

this program will be the same 4 times per week , monday, tuesday, thursday and friday, i try to achieve maximum pump and muscle growth, every day of this routine will have always different movement. what do you think? Do you think i will be overtraining????

Thank you very much brovs

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by Orlando1234977

Hmm, does this suggest that the FT fibers are the last to recruit and exhaust?

Notice, FT fibers are recruited as the intensity increases towards a maximum or the ST fibers become seriously energy depleted. Sounds like they're needed as you approach failure, as the ST are becoming energy depleted.

For less than threshold intensity (load, not effort), in most cases, higher threshold units are recruited after the lower threshold units....but they fatigue faster. Colloquially, they pitch in to help...but they suck at it. In fact, they suck so much, that the body will CHANGE them if your "status quo" is using them for endurance.

Step back and look from the outside for a second. Why would fibers optimized for short bursts of effort be selectively used for endurance?

In fact:

Moreover, endurance training reduces vertical jump power, explosive speed and similar FT fibers activities possibly because endurance training may degrade FT fibers, replace them with ST fibers or cause enzymatic and neuromuscular changes more appropriate to slow endurance activities (Armstrong, 1987).

All Pro hit the nail on the head right here:

Originally Posted by AllPro

Using a fast rep speed forces the CNS to recruit 2B fibers with the very first rep even if the weight is lighter than 80%. If you train slowly and in the higher rep ranges 8+ for long periods of time your body will adapt by replacing 2B motor units with 2As it also de conditions the CNS. The time to train with a slow rep speed and or higher reps is when muscular/anaerobic endurance and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is the goal. If you want strength, speed and power you have 3 choices light weight lifted fast, heavy weight lifted as fast as possible or Olympic lifts and their cousins.
Otherwise what you are saying is akin to running 1 mile everyday to lower your 40 times. It ain't gonna happen.

[momofo]

wrong,mentzer hit hits all muscle fibers and makes them grow-defiant1 fancys himself an expert but so far has not proven anything

[GuyJin]

Learn how to read King...er, momo.

But before that, you have to learn how to think.

[momofo]

King momofo huh?lmao i like that

[GuyJin]

Still not thinkin' clearly, are you mo?

Man you are so in the red--I would really love to neg you, but it just ain't worth it. Crawl back to your basement--reread all pros' posts--if you can't understand what he's saying, why post at all...?

[momofo]

listen trollboy if you dont like my posts dont read them or put me on ignore or something. like the typical volume sith youre rude and contribute nothing.
tough to be owned constantly isnt it

[momofo]

try this bicep workout-do 2 sets of palms up lat pulldowns to warmup then with a 424 speed do one set of those to failure then a set of bicep curls to failure and then chimups to failure-watch the gains skyrocket! and another variation can be found here with a testimonial-
http://highintensity.net/Forums/View...?topic_id=3046

[GuyJin]

Hey mo,

"Owned and boned" should be your "log in " password, but I'll let your little boy comments go--you've been had so many times your butthole must be a mile wide!

At any rate, for you, read ANYTHING by Defiant1 or all pro--unlike you, they have no agenda except promoting a better way to train. At no time have I ever stated that HIT is NOT good. It is. But there ARE better ways to train for overall power and strength, and HIT, IMHO, does NOT address those issues completely. Yes, I know you'll trot out the old warhorse of "building strength and not demonstrating it"--fine. How much strength and power will you build with SSTF? If you can bench, say, 315 for a triple, are you seriously telling me that you should go into a workout and then do (roughly) 70% or 225 without a warmup, you're asking for an eventual injury. Same with squats. Doing a max of 315 or more pounds for reps without a warmup is madness personified. And then you'll tell me that after doing this one set to take a week or more off and let that one set build you up? You NEED a certain amount of volume--not crazy amounts, BTW--in order to trigger an adaptive response, and if you are training for strength, you need to train your CNS with a SPECIFIC rep range. HIT does NOT address that at all.

As for your recommendation of how to work your arms, it's an old post, and it has some merit, but I've seen it all before, and how long can you do such a workout before plateaus inevitably result? That's the biggest problem with SSTF and HIT in general--plateaus, both in strength, size, and power. You know it, and so does everyone else. HIT does not address the ideas of plateaus except for factoring in NTF days--one NTF day to compensate for constantly pushing for more reps and/or weight; burning out is not the basis for a successful programme which one would employ to gain strength AND overall size. (Size being larrgely determined by genetics). HIT doesn't really address deloads, either, except for the NTF days.

Face it, trollboy, you're talking out of your butthole when it comes to this kind of training. I'm all for abbreviated training, but sensible abbreviated training which will give me the best of both worlds in overall size and strength; HIT didn't do it for me, and doing it your way won't do jack for the other guys who're considering this kind of programme. SSTF is a great way to stay in shape, but it doesn't address the problems of maximizing strength and power.

Better luck next time. As for the "ignore" function, most of this forum has been ignoring you for ages, so that's okay...say hi to Larry and Curly for me willya?

Nyuk nyuk...

[momofo]

see you dont even know what mentzer hit is about, its not about just one set its multiple warmup sets and then one workset. when we talk about doing one set we dont mean thats the only set just the only workset,you need to warm up for safety and psychological reasons so your right about the injury thing but wrong about what hit really is. and recovery is different for everybody,everyone on here likes to talk about once a week but thats not for everyone just for those who are more advanced

[momofo]

also your not taking into account statics holds,negatives,forced reps and other intenstity building techniques its not always one set to failure but sometimes more then that-learn what hit is before bashing it

[fbcoach]

Originally Posted by GuyJin

Hey mo,

"Owned and boned" should be your "log in " password, but I'll let your little boy comments go--you've been had so many times your butthole must be a mile wide!

At any rate, for you, read ANYTHING by Defiant1 or all pro--unlike you, they have no agenda except promoting a better way to train. At no time have I ever stated that HIT is NOT good. It is. But there ARE better ways to train for overall power and strength, and HIT, IMHO, does NOT address those issues completely. Yes, I know you'll trot out the old warhorse of "building strength and not demonstrating it"--fine. How much strength and power will you build with SSTF? If you can bench, say, 315 for a triple, are you seriously telling me that you should go into a workout and then do (roughly) 70% or 225 without a warmup, you're asking for an eventual injury. Same with squats. Doing a max of 315 or more pounds for reps without a warmup is madness personified. And then you'll tell me that after doing this one set to take a week or more off and let that one set build you up? You NEED a certain amount of volume--not crazy amounts, BTW--in order to trigger an adaptive response, and if you are training for strength, you need to train your CNS with a SPECIFIC rep range. HIT does NOT address that at all.

As for your recommendation of how to work your arms, it's an old post, and it has some merit, but I've seen it all before, and how long can you do such a workout before plateaus inevitably result? That's the biggest problem with SSTF and HIT in general--plateaus, both in strength, size, and power. You know it, and so does everyone else. HIT does not address the ideas of plateaus except for factoring in NTF days--one NTF day to compensate for constantly pushing for more reps and/or weight; burning out is not the basis for a successful programme which one would employ to gain strength AND overall size. (Size being larrgely determined by genetics). HIT doesn't really address deloads, either, except for the NTF days.

Face it, trollboy, you're talking out of your butthole when it comes to this kind of training. I'm all for abbreviated training, but sensible abbreviated training which will give me the best of both worlds in overall size and strength; HIT didn't do it for me, and doing it your way won't do jack for the other guys who're considering this kind of programme. SSTF is a great way to stay in shape, but it doesn't address the problems of maximizing strength and power.

Better luck next time. As for the "ignore" function, most of this forum has been ignoring you for ages, so that's okay...say hi to Larry and Curly for me willya?

Nyuk nyuk...

GREAT POST!! Right on the money Guy Jin.

[Defiant1]

Not worth getting riled up about momo/kingfish/squeezer/HITMOF.


It's like getting mad a flowers for blooming.


They can't help it.

[jras]

Palms up pulldowns followed by curls with a slow negative is a killer,try it for a month,you will grow.

[all pro]

Originally Posted by Defiant1

For this type of info, "Supertraining" by Mel Siff can't be beat.

Add this one to your shopping list http://www.amazon.com/Neuromechanics.../dp/0736002510
and Periodization breakthrough By Fleck and Kraemer.
There are a lot more but these are a great start.

[all pro]

Originally Posted by Defiant1

Not worth getting riled up about momo/kingfish/squeezer/HITMOF.


It's like getting mad a flowers for blooming.


They can't help it.

I still laugh everytime I see this picture. It's a classic.

[Joao costa]

I'm doing HD training for 5 weeks and now i have one problem:
i cant steel gain weight and power and my biceps didtn grown up.
steel at the same 40cm and 81kg.
So after 5 weeks,stops the evolution and now comes the big question:What can i do now to change this perspective??

I'm thinking to change the cadence 4,2,4 to 3,1,3.

I'm feeling that my chest and back are bigger but my biceps/triceps didtn change anything.

[s4lnj]

see you dont even know what mentzer hit is about, its not about just one set its multiple warmup sets and then one workset. when we talk about doing one set we dont mean thats the only set just the only workset,you need to warm up for safety and psychological reasons so your right about the injury thing but wrong about what hit really is. and recovery is different for everybody,everyone on here likes to talk about once a week but thats not for everyone just for those who are more advanced

i was actually taught that while using HIT due to the slow rep speed, warm ups were not needed. one set, till failure, then gone.

i know what comes next, "you were taught wrong, obviouslly they didn't know HIT"

but it was from Dr. Doug Mcguff, a solid resource.

[GuyJin]

McGuff ain't always right. His concept of correct dosage of exercise being akin to correct dosages of medicine is a poor analogy at best. While we should get the most precise dosage of meds--obviously--there is no real "precise" method of exercise. Less is better, precise is best--sure; I'll agree with that. But what "precise" means depends on the individuals' response.

I've said this before: While there is a very real threat of overtraining, and most guys are guilty of that, there is also a very real threat of undertraining. Do that, and you cheat yourself out of possible gains. If you don't go to the edge of overtraining, how will you know what your limits are?

[HIT-IT-HARD]

Originally Posted by paps8

Ive been reading everything I can find about HIT for about a month. When I came across Arthur Jones and the Colorado EXperiment I automatically thaught it was a crock of ****. In the mean time went to a local vitamin shop to check my body composition and the owner turned out to be a HIT Jedi (I love that term). After discussing HIT for about 2 hours he gave me a routine that he said would pack on muscle twice as fast as the high volume training(that i made great gains with) i had been doing. I was skeptical but I decided to give it a try. Sure enough, yesterday after only eight days I returned to check my progress and I was stunned by the results. At first I was dissapointed because I only gained a pound on the scale, but it turned out I dropped 2% bodyfat, which means I lost 2 pounds of fat and gained 4 pounds of muscle IN 8 DAYS! NATURALLY. So far I can say I am very satisfied and if this continues Ill never turn back.

Good to hear the positive results. Seems few here are interested in hearing positive real life experiences with HIT. Personally, I have been doing heavy duty HIT for the past (just under) 2 years after having done the volume thing with poor results. Since starting Heavy duty HIT June/2006 I gained 20lbs of solid muscle while at the same time losing 90 lbs of fat without drugs. Will be posting photos soon.

It's brutal training which is why the extra rest is needed. While others are spending their life in the gym doing endless useless reps and sets were growing and have a life outside the gym.

Now that I have nearly reached my fat loss goals I with plan to gain 20 lbs more muscle over the next 12-16 months. Don't let the negative comments about HIT sway you. HIT works plain and simple as it is built on sound principles.
HIT-IT-HARD.

[Actarus]

But what "precise" means depends on the individuals' response

Exactly like with medicines... but general optimal dosage are still possible for the big majority of people. And optimal training intensity is essentialy the same for everyone.

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by s4lnj

i was actually taught that while using HIT due to the slow rep speed, warm ups were not needed. one set, till failure, then gone.

i know what comes next, "you were taught wrong, obviouslly they didn't know HIT"

but it was from Dr. Doug Mcguff, a solid resource.

That IS the original Jones HIT idea. At least in terms of warming up.


Low force, high effort was the idea.



Oh, and hint: Results from deloading are NOT the same as fresh results. In fact, they are the result of the effort of the ORIGINAL program. Those touting "sudden" gains when a reduction in workload is done need to realize this.