Thermogenic Thyrotabs

[panic66]

Originally Posted by uhockey

or a BA in BS.

lol just beautiful uhockey

[Endocrine]

Originally Posted by uhockey

Hey, smartass, I didn't mean you wouldn't "get it" as in you wouldn't be intelligent enough. I meant they won't post it, therefore you won't "get what you're asking for"

Take your pretense elsewhere, because at 23, you aren't posting with more than a BA or BS, or a BA in BS.

Yeah, or we wont get it... because it doesnt exist.

[uhockey]

Originally Posted by Endocrine

Yeah, or we wont get it... because it doesnt exist.

Hmmm, BK's word vs. the beliefs of the "career"-man......I don't know.....

Anyhow, I agree that more info would be nice, but to assume that this is merely iodine and phenylalanine and that the conjugation has no effect seems pretty ignorant to me.

[Endocrine]

Originally Posted by uhockey

Hmmm, BK's word vs. the beliefs of the "career"-man......I don't know.....

Anyhow, I agree that more info would be nice, but to assume that this is merely iodine and phenylalanine and that the conjugation has no effect seems pretty ignorant to me.

Lay it out then. I never said they have no effect, but rather, why the high price? Beliefs? I havent stated anything buy my questions...

[Blk98Bird]

Originally Posted by Endocrine

Lay it out then. I never said they have no effect, but rather, why the high price? Beliefs? I havent stated anything buy my questions...

By your questions.

While your request for more information is entirely reasonable, it is not unreasonable that you aren't given an answer. I know if I worked on something for years I wouldn't be quick to lay everything out there for the masses. I imagine this to be especially true in an environment full of knock-offs.

There is evidence in logs out there demonstrating how well the product does or does not work. If you are still uncomfortable using the product without knowing the specific mechanisms of action (again, entirely reasonable) then avoid said product.

I would suggest buying some bulk phenylalanine and tyrosine in an effort to determine for yourself whether or not the product is worth your money.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by Endocrine

why the high price?...

So do not buy it. The molecule is exceedingly difficult to make. It is -

3,3'-diiodo-l-thryonine (DIT) which a metabolite as well as a precursor to
liothyronine (T-3) and levothyroxine (T-4). It costs a lot to make and we can only get 100g every 6-8 weeks. Price is relative. If you think it is too much buy something else.

You keep pestering people for "more information?" yet you don't really mention what you are looking for.

A basic pharma or physio text will show you the exact synthesis of thyroid hormones in humans as well as their metabolites.

DIT picks up 1-2 iodine groups at 5 or 5,5' to make T-3 and T-4. That's just how they are made. It's fact. Not to mention that DIT is metabolically active on its own.

Despite Dave Burton's assertions to the contrary (Dave works for a competitor) this is probably the least suppressive thyroid product on the market in humans and if memory serves me, is about 15%-20% less suppressive at equipotent doses to 3,5-T2. He'll cite abstracts from rat studies but humans aren't rats (well, with a few exceptions) and store fat differently from rats.

If you think I or anyone else is going to make you a powerpoint presentation or some colored flow chart or flash cards...perhaps you should opt for a different product. If you want to buy 10 gross of the product, I might me more inclined to speak with you by telephone. But I refuse to do it if you're buying 1-2 boxes as then everyone will expect the same.

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by Endocrine

Here's my letter to info@gasparinutrition.com:

Hi,
I'm currently involved in an ongoing discussion regarding Thyrotabs on BodyBuilding.com's supplement forum: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=921376
We're trying to obtain some information regading how exactly the molecule used in Thyrotabs is worth the price as well as how it becomes an active molecule of T3 or T4. A metabolic flow chart or a depiction of the molecule would be informative and helpful and would settle some questions better than just; "Thyrotabs converts to T3". We all understand that phenylalanine and iodine are both used in the formation of T4, but are curious to see how Thyrotabs ingredient is more potent just supplementing extra phenylalanine and tyrosine in the diet as well as worth the price.
Thanks,
Endocrine (BodyBuilding.com forum name)

I got your letter. Hold your breath waiting for an answer.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by Endocrine

Hey buddy, Im sure I'll "get" the flow chart just fine. Unlike some, I'm no longer a student and moving forward with a career. Take that nonsense elsewhere.

I could understand why they wouldnt want to post up some information.. All im asking for is a bit of reasoning because I'd like to know. Not because I want to duplicate, but because its of interest of people that use it and are using as an alternative to the real thing.

If BK, "knows a few things" then, by all means, enterain us with some reasoning please.

You need to learn a lot more about thyroid hormones and their molecular configuration before asking these questions.

This is not phenylalanine or tyrosine. The fact that you do not know that tells me you need to do a little more independent research into the nomenclature of these things.

Keep holding your breath for the flow chart too

BK

[daveburton]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

Despite Dave Burton's assertions to the contrary (Dave works for a competitor) this is probably the least suppressive thyroid product on the market in humans and if memory serves me, is about 15%-20% less suppressive at equipotent doses to 3,5-T2. He'll cite abstracts from rat studies but humans aren't rats (well, with a few exceptions) and store fat differently from rats.
BK

Well Sherlock, as yet I don't think we've seen any research on how 3,5-T2 or 3,3 T2 affects TSH in humans. In fact, it's not known to the best of my knowledge how 3,5-T2 (3,3-T2) operates to suppress TSH in rodents or humans. A couple of models have been proposed. One is that at sufficiently high concentrations T2 may bind to the pituitary T3 receptor and act in a negative feedback manner to suppress TSH. Another proposal is that T2 increases levels of pituitary 5'deiodinase, the enzyme that converts T4 to T3, and the resulting T3 lowers TSH.

I have read in several papers and texts that rats have very little TBG (
Thyroxine Binding Globulin) compared to humans, so the thyroid hormones
have much shorter half lives in rats than in humans. This suggests the
rapid elimination of T3 and its metabolite T2 might lead to less buildup of T2 in the rat pituitary compared to the human pituitary, leading to even greater suppression of TSH in humans compared to the data reported for rats. Some food for thought anyway.

[daveburton]

Here is another research paper to consider:

Metabolic Effects of Thyroxine, 3,3',5-Triiodothyronine, 3,3'-Diiodo-5-Bromothyronine and 3,3'-Diiodothyronine Administered Orally to Rats

Chalmers L. Gemmill 1
1 From the Department of Pharmacology, School of Medicine, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia

By using large amounts of (–) thyroxine, (–) 3,3',5-triiodothyronine, (±) 3,3'-diiodo-5-bromothyronine and (±) 3,3'-diiodothyronine in the drinking water of rats, it was found that thyroxine, triiodothyronine and 3,3'-diiodo-5-bromothyronine elevated the metabolism while 3,3'-diiodothyronine had no effect with this method of administration. It was observed that there was a limiting value to the elevation of the metabolism which was soon reached with thyroxine but not with triiodothyronine. The maximal elevation of metabolism obtained with triiodothyronine was +244 in the thyroidectomized animal and +201 in the normal animal. With thyroxine the maximal metabolism was +141 in the thyroidectomized animal and +26 in the normal animal. One hypothyroid rat showed skin changes which healed after 11 days with triiodothyronine in the drinking water.

[Endocrine]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

You need to learn a lot more about thyroid hormones and their molecular configuration before asking these questions.

This is not phenylalanine or tyrosine. The fact that you do not know that tells me you need to do a little more independent research into the nomenclature of these things.

Keep holding your breath for the flow chart too

BK

You're 100% correct. I could do more research. However, thyroid research isn't exactly my cup of tea. What is, is the market you and I both work in and how its saturated with products (of which I do have about six boxes of your Thyrotabs sitting on my shelf at 30% below MSRP and still havnt moved in... almost 5 months now) that hold no scientific weight. I appreciate that you took the time to go into a little about the science of this supplement. A flow chart isnt necessary, but for guys like me who really like this stuff, it would be nothing more than interesting and a nice pin up to my metabolic flow chart plastered on the wall behind me.
Your attempt to belittle me, I dont really understand. I'm trying to get a little perspective so I CAN BETTER SELL YOUR ****! A phone call wont be necessary, but what I will do is do a test run of this stuff (while documenting my exercise and diet regamine) and get back to everyone on how it went.
It should also be noted that I've used real synthetic T3 at doses of 100mcg a day for the appropriate amounts of time with good results and all the signs and symptoms of hightened thyroid levels. So I've got a good comparison to match Thyrotabs with. This time, I will take my bodytemp intermittently throughout.

[flexap00]

hey guys I started this thread to find out a little more info for myself, and yes I am not much of a genius on how the thyroid operates which is why I asked for a little more info.

Endo just backed me up and he is more knowledable on the subject than I and for that it is truely appreicated, we / he is not asking for the secret formula but a better understanding of what we are putting into our body so that we can better use the product.

I have started using throid tabs, it has only really been a week in, this is when its suppose to start kicking in. Have to say that I have seen a decrease in bf and an feel an increase in body temp and seems to be hyeractive and sweating more than usual. I am also stacking it with Novadex xt and 3 degree burn, so while it might not just be the thyroid tab working by itself to give me the results, this is not so much so a trial run for the product as it is for me to get my bf down. The three together has seem promising thus far.

All feedback has been much much appricated thus far, we are all here to learn and gather info (well at least I am).....to be able to draw from a pool of real world info and experience from all you guys in invaluable, wish I had this kind of info at my fingertip when I first started lifting 13 years ago....I wouldnt have had to drive the rest of the gym staff that i worked with crazy with constant question after question.

[Endocrine]

Flexpa,
Take your temperature. Anything above 98.6 would look good for Thyrotabs. An under the tounge thermometer is only a few bucks.

[Endocrine]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

So do not buy it. The molecule is exceedingly difficult to make. It is -

3,3'-diiodo-l-thryonine (DIT) which a metabolite as well as a precursor to
liothyronine (T-3) and levothyroxine (T-4). It costs a lot to make and we can only get 100g every 6-8 weeks. Price is relative. If you think it is too much buy something else.

You keep pestering people for "more information?" yet you don't really mention what you are looking for.

A basic pharma or physio text will show you the exact synthesis of thyroid hormones in humans as well as their metabolites.

DIT picks up 1-2 iodine groups at 5 or 5,5' to make T-3 and T-4. That's just how they are made. It's fact. Not to mention that DIT is metabolically active on its own.

Despite Dave Burton's assertions to the contrary (Dave works for a competitor) this is probably the least suppressive thyroid product on the market in humans and if memory serves me, is about 15%-20% less suppressive at equipotent doses to 3,5-T2. He'll cite abstracts from rat studies but humans aren't rats (well, with a few exceptions) and store fat differently from rats.

If you think I or anyone else is going to make you a powerpoint presentation or some colored flow chart or flash cards...perhaps you should opt for a different product. If you want to buy 10 gross of the product, I might me more inclined to speak with you by telephone. But I refuse to do it if you're buying 1-2 boxes as then everyone will expect the same.

BK

3,3'-diiodo-l-thryonine... is that the same as the listed 3,3P-iodo-4-(4-hydroxyphenoxy)-L-phenylalanine?

[uhockey]

Originally Posted by Endocrine

Flexpa,
Take your temperature. Anything above 98.6 would look good for Thyrotabs. An under the tounge thermometer is only a few bucks.

Temperature is a highly sensitive measure for hyperthyroidism? Could've fooled the medical world.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by daveburton

Here is another research paper to consider:

Metabolic Effects of Thyroxine, 3,3',5-Triiodothyronine, 3,3'-Diiodo-5-Bromothyronine and 3,3'-Diiodothyronine Administered Orally to Rats

Chalmers L. Gemmill 1
1 From the Department of Pharmacology, School of Medicine, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia

By using large amounts of (–) thyroxine, (–) 3,3',5-triiodothyronine, (±) 3,3'-diiodo-5-bromothyronine and (±) 3,3'-diiodothyronine in the drinking water of rats, it was found that thyroxine, triiodothyronine and 3,3'-diiodo-5-bromothyronine elevated the metabolism while 3,3'-diiodothyronine had no effect with this method of administration. It was observed that there was a limiting value to the elevation of the metabolism which was soon reached with thyroxine but not with triiodothyronine. The maximal elevation of metabolism obtained with triiodothyronine was +244 in the thyroidectomized animal and +201 in the normal animal. With thyroxine the maximal metabolism was +141 in the thyroidectomized animal and +26 in the normal animal. One hypothyroid rat showed skin changes which healed after 11 days with triiodothyronine in the drinking water.

Dave...you keep citing the SAME RAT study. Are you a rat? Most people I know are not. Youy also conveniently fail to look at the other half dozen studies that contradict this.

Dave...who do you work for again?

Thats what I thought.

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by daveburton

Well Sherlock, as yet I don't think we've seen any research on how 3,5-T2 or 3,3 T2 affects TSH in humans. In fact, it's not known to the best of my knowledge how 3,5-T2 (3,3-T2) operates to suppress TSH in rodents or humans. A couple of models have been proposed. One is that at sufficiently high concentrations T2 may bind to the pituitary T3 receptor and act in a negative feedback manner to suppress TSH. Another proposal is that T2 increases levels of pituitary 5'deiodinase, the enzyme that converts T4 to T3, and the resulting T3 lowers TSH.

I have read in several papers and texts that rats have very little TBG (
Thyroxine Binding Globulin) compared to humans, so the thyroid hormones
have much shorter half lives in rats than in humans. This suggests the
rapid elimination of T3 and its metabolite T2 might lead to less buildup of T2 in the rat pituitary compared to the human pituitary, leading to even greater suppression of TSH in humans compared to the data reported for rats. Some food for thought anyway.

So are you saying a rats metabolism is analogous to a humans?

Look into brown fat, Dave.

BK

[highwhey_14]

I have Thyrotabs, brand-new and sealed. I'll let it go for cheap. pm me bro

[Endocrine]

Originally Posted by uhockey

Temperature is a highly sensitive measure for hyperthyroidism? Could've fooled the medical world.

So are you saying a blood test would be most accurate? I think so to, however, I've gotten notable hotter when taking T3 in the past. So much so, that I hucked all my blankets from my bed in the dead of winter!

[uhockey]

Thank the good lord for n=1+rats studies, Sorry BK, you're WRONG.

[deserusan]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

Look into brown fat, Dave.

Bingo! The only humans that have brown adipose tissue are newborns. Brown adipose tissue is also significantly different when compare to white apidose tissue. I'm not trying sound racist either.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by deserusan

Bingo! The only humans that have brown adipose tissue are newborns. Brown adipose tissue is also significantly different when compare to white apidose tissue. I'm not trying sound racist either.

But rats are loaded with brown adipose tissue. I do not have time to get into basic thyroidal homeostasic now and I am experienced enough to know when someone is looking to pick a fight or just find some pickeyune excuse to bash the product like this Endo guy is.

Dude, if they are sitting on your shelf in "your store" and you think the price is too high...sell them for less! Or return them to your wholesaler. It's pretty simple.

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by uhockey

Thank the good lord for n=1+rats studies, Sorry BK, you're WRONG.

I have worked with this molecule since 1998 in my Biotest days. I am going to go out on a leg here and say there might be a dozen guys on the planet that know more about it than I do and none of them work in the supplement industry.

I am *NOT* asking people to use this stuff based on blind faith in me either.

However, people have to do a little homework on their own. When a guy PM's me, EM's Gaspari and posts here within an hour and demands I do a colored flow chart and provide him with knowledge regarding basic cellular biochemistry that is found in even the crudest pharmacology, biology, biochemistry and/or physiology text well...I am calling a spade a spade.

BK

[Endocrine]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

But rats are loaded with brown adipose tissue. I do not have time to get into basic thyroidal homeostasic now and I am experienced enough to know when someone is looking to pick a fight or just find some pickeyune excuse to bash the product like this Endo guy is.

Dude, if they are sitting on your shelf in "your store" and you think the price is too high...sell them for less! Or return them to your wholesaler. It's pretty simple.

BK

Oh buddy! For the last time, I'm very interested in the dynamics of your invention. You came on here, panties all in a ruffle, with your dukes up in total defense mode. Kind of telling. I got the response I was looking for... just about, minus all the attitude.

I suggested/requested a depiction of the breakdown of the ingredient in Thyrotabs and your coming at us in a manner of "just trust me, it works"... I'm not looking to pick a fight, slander your product, or Gaspari. I did this because its of interest to me... then the responses I get give me the impression there's some bs behind the scenes... I dont think thats the truth, but thats the impression you've given me and everyone else on here.

I think you're the one looking for a fight, slamming me on what you think I know and dont know. Hell! I dont even know if it works! It may just kick ass. I'd have to try it out. All I know thus far, is the guy who supposedly came up with the stuff has ponied up 10% answers and 90% wastless guff.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by Endocrine

Oh buddy! For the last time, I'm very interested in the dynamics of your invention. You came on here, panties all in a ruffle, with your dukes up in total defense mode. Kind of telling. I got the response I was looking for... just about, minus all the attitude.

I suggested/requested a depiction of the breakdown of the ingredient in Thyrotabs and your coming at us in a manner of "just trust me, it works"... I'm not looking to pick a fight, slander your product, or Gaspari. I did this because its of interest to me... then the responses I get give me the impression there's some bs behind the scenes... I dont think thats the truth, but thats the impression you've given me and everyone else on here.

I think you're the one looking for a fight, slamming me on what you think I know and dont know. Hell! I dont even know if it works! It may just kick ass. I'd have to try it out. All I know thus far, is the guy who supposedly came up with the stuff has ponied up 10% answers and 90% wastless guff.

Your still not getting flash cards or flow charts.

To quote a dearly departed "friend" from bb.com - NEGGED!

BK

[flexap00]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

Your still not getting flash cards or flow charts.

To quote a dearly departed "friend" from bb.com - NEGGED!

BK

Dude I think you might have took this the wrong way man, we are just interested in the product or we would not have asked about it, I am currently using it and am not slamming it, was just a little curious about what I'm putting into my body and wanted to gain a better understanding of it...once again we are not slamming the product or asking for the "secret formula"

I'm very interested in the Gasperi products and have used the novadex xt in the past and the 3 degree burn with good results so naturally when I saw this I wanted to find out more about it.

Relax my dude, its not that serious.

[ab-swing asianbabe]

Originally Posted by flexap00

Relax my dude, its not that serious.

For some reason I think Bk is doing just fine

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by flexap00

Dude I think you might have took this the wrong way man, we are just interested in the product or we would not have asked about it, I am currently using it and am not slamming it, was just a little curious about what I'm putting into my body and wanted to gain a better understanding of it...once again we are not slamming the product or asking for the "secret formula"

I'm very interested in the Gasperi products and have used the novadex xt in the past and the 3 degree burn with good results so naturally when I saw this I wanted to find out more about it.

Relax my dude, its not that serious.

Let me ask you a few questions. And I am not being a dick here, I am being serious. Maybe I expect too much of people, I dunno.

Don't you think you should know as much as possible about a product BEFORE putting it in your body? Not after you start?

Don't you think you should have learned a little more about basic physio/biochem?

Do you think perhaps the "search" feature here on the board could have been used before asking questions that have been answered 5 or 6 or 500 times already?

Now, this is for you, not the other guy who is a troll.

The product contains 3,3'-diiodo-l-thyronine (the phenylalanine nomenclature on the label is another way of writing it). This stuff is one of 4 potential di (double) iodinated "cousins" to both 3,3',5-triodo-l-thyronine (T-3, Cytomel, the "[potent endogenous thyroid hormone with 3 iodones) and 3,3',5,5'-tetraiodo-l-thyronine (levothyroxine or Synthroid or T-4).

The di's will be called "DIT" for short hereafter.

DIT's (aside from being metabolite of) are prohormones to T-3 and T-4. DIT is further iodinated in the thyroid gland to become T-3 and T-4 so this makes DIT (and the product) a prohormone to two thyroid hormones.

However, there is a lot of evidence that 3 of the 4 DIT configurations are "metabolically active" on their own, that is to say, they have inherent thyroidal activity all by themselves. There is quite a bit of evidence to support this and a little evidence to say it is not so (but in all honesty, in rats, this seems to be the case...sometimes).

One study which I am too tired to find shows that this type of DIT is about 15%-25% less "suppressive" than the more typical kind that made it's way to the supplement industry (3,5-DIT). Some people feel the 3,5 is stronger. More data is needed. I do not think anyone will dispute this.

The reason the 3,3'-DIT took so long to hit the market (8 years after 3,5-DIT was introduced) is the 3,3'-DIT is very difficult to make and it is much more expensive to make (use the search feature to see why and see what HF is).

I do not really know what else you're looking for?

BK

[Endocrine]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

Let me ask you a few questions. And I am not being a dick here, I am being serious. Maybe I expect too much of people, I dunno.

Don't you think you should know as much as possible about a product BEFORE putting it in your body? Not after you start?

Don't you think you should have learned a little more about basic physio/biochem?

Do you think perhaps the "search" feature here on the board could have been used before asking questions that have been answered 5 or 6 or 500 times already?

Now, this is for you, not the other guy who is a troll.

The product contains 3,3'-diiodo-l-thyronine (the phenylalanine nomenclature on the label is another way of writing it). This stuff is one of 4 potential di (double) iodinated "cousins" to both 3,3',5-triodo-l-thyronine (T-3, Cytomel, the "[potent endogenous thyroid hormone with 3 iodones) and 3,3',5,5'-tetraiodo-l-thyronine (levothyroxine or Synthroid or T-4).

The di's will be called "DIT" for short hereafter.

DIT's (aside from being metabolite of) are prohormones to T-3 and T-4. DIT is further iodinated in the thyroid gland to become T-3 and T-4 so this makes DIT (and the product) a prohormone to two thyroid hormones.

However, there is a lot of evidence that 3 of the 4 DIT configurations are "metabolically active" on their own, that is to say, they have inherent thyroidal activity all by themselves. There is quite a bit of evidence to support this and a little evidence to say it is not so (but in all honesty, in rats, this seems to be the case...sometimes).

One study which I am too tired to find shows that this type of DIT is about 15%-25% less "suppressive" than the more typical kind that made it's way to the supplement industry (3,5-DIT). Some people feel the 3,5 is stronger. More data is needed. I do not think anyone will dispute this.

The reason the 3,3'-DIT took so long to hit the market (8 years after 3,5-DIT was introduced) is the 3,3'-DIT is very difficult to make and it is much more expensive to make (use the search feature to see why and see what HF is).

I do not really know what else you're looking for?

BK

Thanks man. Troll? No. Is that what you call someone who will now have a better understanding of this previously confusing product and will be better equipt in selling it? Bruce, I really have had some questions regarding your stuff, the second one always involves the price. I can sell anything at any price as long as I'm armed with some good info for the customer.
Saying that its not nearly as suppressive as introducing T3 into the system, makes it all the more interesting.
I'm glad you took the time to help us out. Have you used it...? Stupid question, im sure you have. How'd it go?

[Allio813]

What are the directions as far as taking the thermogenic thyrotabs?? Anyone?