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  1. #31
    Registered User hyper.radio's Avatar
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    the white blood formula i believe is 5 yrs old, WB+GB was one of the very first stacks i tried
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  2. #32
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    on a side note: would healing and arginine

    http://www.ergo-log.com/argininewounds.html

    interesting stuff
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by sloop View Post
    lol De_eB is like a scientist!

    Muscletech must be quaking in their boots.
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  4. #34
    Registered User snorkelman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MCrow View Post
    At least there is some evidance that Argnine may help increase GH levels. Well, at least when not exercising.
    See, Growth hormone, arginine and exercise. Kanaley JA. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2008 Jan;11(1):50-4. (At rest oral L-arginine ingestion will enhance the growth hormone response and the combination of arginine plus exercise increases growth hormone, but this increase may be less than seen with exercise alone. This diminished response is seen in both in both younger and older individuals.)

    see also, Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults. Marcell TJ, et al, J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1999 Aug;54(8):M395-9. ("we concluded that oral Arg does not stimulate GH secretion and may impair GH release during resistive exercise.");

    see also, Oral arginine attenuates the growth hormone response to resistance exercise. Collier SR, et al, J Appl Physiol. 2006 Sep;101(3):848-52. (full text at: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/101/3/848 ) (Oral arginine alone (7 g) stimulated GH release, but a greater GH response was seen with exercise alone. The combined effect of arginine before exercise attenuates the GH response.)

    As you can see from the following graphs, exercise alone will produce a significantly greater growth hormone response than adding supplemental Arginine to your workout (The GH response was 50% higher on the exercise only day than the (exercise + arginine) day, and 65% higher than on the (arginine + no exercise) day.)


    (Integrated GH concentrations on each study day. *P < 0.05 vs. placebo. **P < 0.05 vs. exercise. P < 0.05 vs. arginine + exercise.)

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  5. #35
    Platinum Member eldawg's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nailbomb9 View Post
    What bat are you swinging in your pic?
    I believe its an (older) Easton Synergy in that pic. Been using a Miken Vicious the last couple of of games.
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  6. #36
    Grumpy Old Dwarf MCrow's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by snorkelman View Post
    See, Growth hormone, arginine and exercise. Kanaley JA. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2008 Jan;11(1):50-4. (At rest oral L-arginine ingestion will enhance the growth hormone response and the combination of arginine plus exercise increases growth hormone, but this increase may be less than seen with exercise alone. This diminished response is seen in both in both younger and older individuals.)

    see also, Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults. Marcell TJ, et al, J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1999 Aug;54(8):M395-9. ("we concluded that oral Arg does not stimulate GH secretion and may impair GH release during resistive exercise.");

    see also, Oral arginine attenuates the growth hormone response to resistance exercise. Collier SR, et al, J Appl Physiol. 2006 Sep;101(3):848-52. (full text at: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/101/3/848 ) (Oral arginine alone (7 g) stimulated GH release, but a greater GH response was seen with exercise alone. The combined effect of arginine before exercise attenuates the GH response.)

    As you can see from the following graphs, exercise alone will produce a significantly greater growth hormone response than adding supplemental Arginine to your workout (The GH response was 50% higher on the exercise only day than the (exercise + arginine) day, and 65% higher than on the (arginine + no exercise) day.)


    (Integrated GH concentrations on each study day. *P < 0.05 vs. placebo. **P < 0.05 vs. exercise. P < 0.05 vs. arginine + exercise.)


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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by snorkelman View Post
    See, Growth hormone, arginine and exercise. Kanaley JA. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2008 Jan;11(1):50-4. (At rest oral L-arginine ingestion will enhance the growth hormone response and the combination of arginine plus exercise increases growth hormone, but this increase may be less than seen with exercise alone. This diminished response is seen in both in both younger and older individuals.)

    see also, Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults. Marcell TJ, et al, J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1999 Aug;54(8):M395-9. ("we concluded that oral Arg does not stimulate GH secretion and may impair GH release during resistive exercise.");

    see also, Oral arginine attenuates the growth hormone response to resistance exercise. Collier SR, et al, J Appl Physiol. 2006 Sep;101(3):848-52. (full text at: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/101/3/848 ) (Oral arginine alone (7 g) stimulated GH release, but a greater GH response was seen with exercise alone. The combined effect of arginine before exercise attenuates the GH response.)

    As you can see from the following graphs, exercise alone will produce a significantly greater growth hormone response than adding supplemental Arginine to your workout (The GH response was 50% higher on the exercise only day than the (exercise + arginine) day, and 65% higher than on the (arginine + no exercise) day.)


    (Integrated GH concentrations on each study day. *P < 0.05 vs. placebo. **P < 0.05 vs. exercise. P < 0.05 vs. arginine + exercise.)


    so arginine is worthless?
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  8. #38
    Grumpy Old Dwarf MCrow's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hutch1999 View Post
    so arginine is worthless?
    Wrothless in a preworkout,intra or post workout supplement but could be good if taken in the the night before or morning of an off day.

    Definitely no good preworkout.
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by hutch1999 View Post
    so arginine is worthless?
    It does appear to be true lol based on those graphs.
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  10. #40
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    Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    on a side note: would healing and arginine

    http://www.ergo-log.com/argininewounds.html

    interesting stuff
    No doubt there is benefits to this amino just as there is with any and all aminos. Just that it probably doesn't make sense to use it as a primary ingredient in your pre-workout... I wouldn't worry about having a little, but adding in gram amounts and claiming NO effects, etc... probably should be an extinct marketing angle when just about any semi-knowledgeable member on a bb.com forum knows the difference.
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  11. #41
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    So your telling me, I've been CHEATED!!! lol
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by hutch1999 View Post
    so arginine is worthless?
    basically yes, in oral doses...and for the stated goals
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  13. #43
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    this makes me think about returning my WF now and just getting some caffeine pills if you're really better off without arginine pre workout
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  14. #44
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    well it's good to know arginine is worthless, I still like WF as a preworkout though.
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  15. #45
    Grumpy Old Dwarf MCrow's Avatar
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    WF may be a worthless NO supplement but it does have beta alanine for improved performance and has a good stim. 2 scoops will give you plenty of beta alanine.

    However, I think Assault is probably a better preworkout supplement with beta alanine,creatine,Glutamine, Aspartic Acid...ect.

    It does have arginine, but I don't think most supplements have enough of it in them to be detrimental to HG during exercise.
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  16. #46
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    Originally Posted by MCrow View Post
    WF may be a worthless NO supplement but it does have beta alanine for improved performance and has a good stim. 2 scoops will give you plenty of beta alanine.

    However, I think Assault is probably a better preworkout supplement with beta alanine,creatine,Glutamine, Aspartic Acid...ect.

    It does have arginine, but I don't think most supplements have enough of it in them to be detrimental to HG during exercise.
    you need more than 1.6 grams of beta alanine a day to get much use out of it
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  17. #47
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    Originally Posted by eldawg View Post
    I believe its an (older) Easton Synergy in that pic. Been using a Miken Vicious the last couple of of games.
    That's what I thought it was...nice!! Can't beat the 98 orange and blue Mayhem though!!
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  18. #48
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    Originally Posted by CarpeDiem89 View Post
    this makes me think about returning my WF now and just getting some caffeine pills if you're really better off without arginine pre workout
    dont let people get to you, there is plenty of good info on arginine in healthy humans: (there are studies for and against it like almost every other compound on the market) I am not getting into any debates back and forth as people who have already formed strong opinions (for one reason or the other)are not going to waiver, so in the essence of fairness I am listing just some of the positive studies you can find with an easy web search.


    Gerseli Angeli , Turibio Leite De Barros, Daniel Furquim Leite De Barros and Marcelo Lima
    S?o Paulo Fc, Brazil
    Investigation of the effects of oral supplementation of arginine in the increase of muscular strength and mass

    J Appl Physiol. 2001 Mar;90(3):933-8.
    L-arginine enhances aerobic exercise capacity in association with augmented nitric oxide production.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624416
    A decrease in glucose production is associated with an increase in plasma citrulline response to oral arginine in normal volunteers. (shows oral arginine increase NO production)

    Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2008 Oct;18(5):493-508.
    Creatine, arginine alpha-ketoglutarate, amino acids, and medium-chain triglycerides and endurance and performance.

    J Muscle Res Cell Motil. 2006;27(8):577-84. Epub 2006 Oct 19.
    Arginine supplementation induces myoblast fusion via augmentation of nitric oxide production.

    (says arginine increases NO production)

    Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2009 Aug;41(8):1626-32.
    Dietary arginine supplementation speeds pulmonary VO2 kinetics during cycle exercise.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386475 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386475
    Effects of arginine-based supplements on the physical working capacity at the fatigue threshold.

    Nutr Res. 2008 Nov;28(11):738-43.
    L-ornithine supplementation attenuates physical fatigue in healthy volunteers by modulating lipid and amino acid metabolism.

    Cell Biochem Funct. 2003 Mar;21(1):85-91.
    Effect of arginine, ornithine and citrulline supplementation upon performance and metabolism of trained rats.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
    Mol Cell Biochem. 2003 Feb;244(1-2):125-8.
    Effect of caffeine on metabolism of L-arginine in the brain.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513444
    says extra arginine increases NO

    mayo clinic says arginine turns into NO in the body:
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/l-a...tient-arginine

    its healthy for the heart according to the mayo clinic:
    Mayo Clinic (1999, July 14). Mayo Clinic Study Shows Dietary Supplement May Help Fight Heart Disease.

    mayo clinic is even launching clinical trials to show positive effects on coronary health:
    http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00583388

    adding l-arginine to the diet will relax the need for or competition between arginase and NO synthase, so it will allow for a greater amount of NO production to occur as well as ridding the body of ammonia.
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  19. #49
    Grumpy Old Dwarf MCrow's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by De__eB View Post
    you need more than 1.6 grams of beta alanine a day to get much use out of it
    No, actually one study showed pretty good results with 1.5 grams.
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    Originally Posted by MCrow View Post
    No, actually one study showed pretty good results with 1.5 grams.
    I'll drop that number down to 1.4 and "call"....
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  21. #51
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    Originally Posted by kfairhurst View Post
    It doesn't get pumped much but checkout White Blood. First ingredient on the list: Arginine Ethyl Ester Di-HCL.

    No hate to CL but why bother adding useless compounds to a product?
    Makes it look more impressive. People eat that extra compound sh*t right up....especially if they don't know what the compound does/if it adds anything to the product.

    "Wow! Arginine Ethyl Ester Di-HCL has extra words in the name. It must be better than regular Arginine."
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  22. #52
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    Originally Posted by CONTROLLED LABS View Post
    dont let people get to you, there is plenty of good info on arginine in healthy humans: (there are studies for and against it like almost every other compound on the market) I am not getting into any debates back and forth as people who have already formed strong opinions (for one reason or the other)are not going to waiver, so in the essence of fairness I am listing just some of the positive studies you can find with an easy web search.


    Gerseli Angeli , Turibio Leite De Barros, Daniel Furquim Leite De Barros and Marcelo Lima
    S?o Paulo Fc, Brazil
    Investigation of the effects of oral supplementation of arginine in the increase of muscular strength and mass

    J Appl Physiol. 2001 Mar;90(3):933-8.
    L-arginine enhances aerobic exercise capacity in association with augmented nitric oxide production.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624416
    A decrease in glucose production is associated with an increase in plasma citrulline response to oral arginine in normal volunteers. (shows oral arginine increase NO production)

    Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2008 Oct;18(5):493-508.
    Creatine, arginine alpha-ketoglutarate, amino acids, and medium-chain triglycerides and endurance and performance.

    J Muscle Res Cell Motil. 2006;27(8):577-84. Epub 2006 Oct 19.
    Arginine supplementation induces myoblast fusion via augmentation of nitric oxide production.

    (says arginine increases NO production)

    Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2009 Aug;41(8):1626-32.
    Dietary arginine supplementation speeds pulmonary VO2 kinetics during cycle exercise.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386475 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386475
    Effects of arginine-based supplements on the physical working capacity at the fatigue threshold.

    Nutr Res. 2008 Nov;28(11):738-43.
    L-ornithine supplementation attenuates physical fatigue in healthy volunteers by modulating lipid and amino acid metabolism.

    Cell Biochem Funct. 2003 Mar;21(1):85-91.
    Effect of arginine, ornithine and citrulline supplementation upon performance and metabolism of trained rats.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
    Mol Cell Biochem. 2003 Feb;244(1-2):125-8.
    Effect of caffeine on metabolism of L-arginine in the brain.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513444
    says extra arginine increases NO

    mayo clinic says arginine turns into NO in the body:
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/l-a...tient-arginine

    its healthy for the heart according to the mayo clinic:
    Mayo Clinic (1999, July 14). Mayo Clinic Study Shows Dietary Supplement May Help Fight Heart Disease.

    mayo clinic is even launching clinical trials to show positive effects on coronary health:
    http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00583388

    adding l-arginine to the diet will relax the need for or competition between arginase and NO synthase, so it will allow for a greater amount of NO production to occur as well as ridding the body of ammonia.
    All sketchy at best.

    One shows it works if you use 30grams. Another is a study done on septic people and pigs, too bad when you are septic the bacteria actually can create NO, so no good there. In fact, any gram positive bactiria will emit NO. Staph is the most common bug and can create a lot of NO.

    The rest mean nothing for NO.
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  23. #53
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    Originally Posted by MCrow View Post
    All sketchy at best.

    One shows it works if you use 30grams. Another is a study done on septic people and pigs, too bad when you are septic the bacteria actually can create NO, so no good there. In fact, any gram positive bactiria will emit NO. Staph is the most common bug and can create a lot of NO.

    The rest mean nothing for NO.
    its not 30 grams, that was for insulin, read it again (i doubt you read through all of those in the last 15 minutes?)
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  24. #54
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    Originally Posted by CONTROLLED LABS View Post
    its not 30 grams, that was for insulin, read it again (i doubt you read through all of those in the last 15 minutes?)
    Sorry, read that wrong. Still, didn't say how much was neeeded. It also does not say how much it was increased by and also stated that "Individuals may have a variable NO response from an oral arginine administration". Hardly sounds consistant enought to base a supplement around.

    I read the linked ones, I'll read the rest later but I suspect I'll find the same jumping from one assumption and half truth to another.
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    Originally Posted by MCrow View Post
    Sorry, read that wrong. Still, didn't say how much was neeeded. It also does not say how much it was increased by and also stated that "Individuals may have a variable NO response from an oral arginine administration". Hardly sounds consistant enought to base a supplement around.

    I read the linked ones, I'll read the rest later but I suspect I'll find the same jumping from one assumption and half truth to another.
    of course it says it, right here

    "Three grams of freebase arginine or alanine was ingested hourly between 4 am and 2 pm. Neither arginine nor alanine had an effect on C-peptide or insulin concentration. Oral arginine, but not alanine, increased plasma arginine, citrulline, and ornithine concentrations."
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  26. #56
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    Originally Posted by CONTROLLED LABS View Post
    of course it says it, right here

    "Three grams of freebase arginine or alanine was ingested hourly between 4 am and 2 pm. Neither arginine nor alanine had an effect on C-peptide or insulin concentration. Oral arginine, but not alanine, increased plasma arginine, citrulline, and ornithine concentrations."

    Got it.

    Then we only need 3 scoops to get what we need then?

    So we need at least two scoops to the the Beta Alanine and probably 3 scoops to the the Arginine. Sounds to like a serving should be more like 18g instead of 6 then.

    Glad you pointed that out. =-)
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    Originally Posted by CONTROLLED LABS View Post
    of course it says it, right here

    "Three grams of freebase arginine or alanine was ingested hourly between 4 am and 2 pm. Neither arginine nor alanine had an effect on C-peptide or insulin concentration. Oral arginine, but not alanine, increased plasma arginine, citrulline, and ornithine concentrations."
    Originally Posted by MCrow View Post
    Got it.

    Then we only need 3 scoops to get what we need then?
    That would be three scoops every hour over the course of 10 hours. Not trying to be a dick CL, but the study you're quoting doesn't help your case.
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    i just ordered some white flood did i dun goof'd?
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    Originally Posted by deadliftsnmilk View Post
    i just ordered some white flood did i dun goof'd?
    The stuff is great for energy and focus...no doubt. Very similar to jack3d, except no 1,3 dimeth.
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