What carb source in PWO shake?

[pu12en12g]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that carbs are important yes. But the timing is key. So is what you mix with the carbs.

I think the emphasis should be on pre-workout. I think I mentioned that..

wouldn't you agree that carbs are still necessary pre and post-workout (especially PRE) for a insulin response (among other things) ? Just trying to make sure we're on the same page.

and in response.. you didn't mention PRE-workout. And if you don't think a insulin response is beneficial, I'd be most interested in your logic.

[Maki_Man]

I think the emphasis should be on pre-workout. I think I mentioned that..



and in response.. you didn't mention PRE-workout. And if you don't think a insulin response is beneficial, I'd be most interested in your logic.

My comments were directed towards post-workout. As for pre-, you're right. I really haven't thought it through yet. I can say that I do use an EAA/carb drink sometimes before lifting...

[Maki_Man]

As I posted elsewhere though, protein supplements can elicit an insulin response. You might be able to get away with taking just a protein supplement if all you want is an insulin response. Glycogen, well, that's another matter entirely...

[pu12en12g]

As I posted elsewhere though, protein supplements can elicit an insulin response. You might be able to get away with taking just a protein supplement if all you want is an insulin response. Glycogen, well, that's another matter entirely...

Cool... so we're on the same page... that's a relief.

So here is my point.... instead of focusing on rapidly replenishing muscle glycogen with a insulin spike POST-workout.... shouldn't we focus on constantly replenishing muscle glycogen PRE-WORKOUT and DURING our workout (with sources of low-gi carbs), making the following statement true:

"With proper pre-workout and post-workout nutrition providing a insulin response, preventing / minimizing catabolism, and replenishing muscle glycogen , a insulin spike from dextrose / maltodextrin post-workout is totally unnecessary."

[spoonman]

true true pu, but perhaps some dextro/malto post workout in addition to the correct pre/during workout low GIs would be optimal

[Bammy]

true true pu, but perhaps some dextro/malto post workout in addition to the correct pre/during workout low GIs would be optimal

Thats what I do, good pre-workout nutrition, but also some dex with my whey and oats post-workout anyway.

But for the sake of learning new things, Pu12, how much pre workout oats do you think would be neccessary to eliminate the need for a spike post workout?

Would you consider 1 cup oats pre (~54g carbs) and 1.25 cups (~67g carbs)post sufficient for avoiding excessive catabolism and also refilling carb stores?

[Maki_Man]

Cool... so we're on the same page... that's a relief.

So here is my point.... instead of focusing on rapidly replenishing muscle glycogen with a insulin spike POST-workout.... shouldn't we focus on constantly replenishing muscle glycogen PRE-WORKOUT and DURING our workout (with sources of low-gi carbs), making the following statement true:

"With proper pre-workout and post-workout nutrition providing a insulin response, preventing / minimizing catabolism, and replenishing muscle glycogen , a insulin spike from dextrose / maltodextrin post-workout is totally unnecessary."

Just a quick distinction between insulin response and glycemic response--protein supplements can produce the former without eliciting the latter. That said, my comments about insulin refer specifically to anabolism post-training (resistance). I'm not talking about glycogen storage. The "insulin spike" you refer can play an important role in sparking protein synthesis and the anabolic drive. So my position is, carbs play many important roles outside of plain nutrition. Glycogen storage is one, but not the only.

[pu12en12g]

The "insulin spike" you refer can play an important role in sparking protein synthesis and the anabolic drive.

Superior to a "insulin response" ? If you have any evidence of this, please post it.

So my position is, carbs play many important roles outside of plain nutrition. Glycogen storage is one, but not the only.

"With proper pre-workout and post-workout nutrition providing a insulin response, preventing / minimizing catabolism, and replenishing muscle glycogen , a insulin spike from dextrose / maltodextrin post-workout is totally unnecessary."

^^^ Carbs are a part of proper pre- / post-workout nutrition, but what we are discussing is various carb sources. Let's be as specific as possible.

[Maki_Man]

Superior to a "insulin response" ? If you have any evidence of this, please post it.

^^^ Carbs are a part of proper pre- / post-workout nutrition, but what we are discussing is various carb sources. Let's be as specific as possible.

I was just referring to your usage when I mentioned "insulin spike"... Honestly, I don't know what the difference is between insulin "response" vs. "spike". Perhaps for the sake of this discussion, we could define it. Otherwise, I'm at a loss..

Again, I'm not referring to the usage of carbs as "nutrition". I'm talking about the use of carbs as a catalyst for priming anabolism, along with amino acids post-training.

In general, I do agree that some kind of pre-workout nutrition is important. However, returning back to the issue of igniting anabolism post-training (resistance) during the "window of opportunity", carbs can still play a role. Does this make sense?

[spoonman]

I try to get at least 50 grams or so of carbs via pinhead oatmeal preworkout. BUT, another consideration is taking them in too close to when you start your workout. If your body is busy digesting the food, you will not have as much energy to push yourself while training. So, I think timing is a very importatnt issue as well as volume.

[Maki_Man]

I try to get at least 50 grams or so of carbs via pinhead oatmeal preworkout. BUT, another consideration is taking them in too close to when you start your workout. If your body is busy digesting the food, you will not have as much energy to push yourself while training. So, I think timing is a very importatnt issue as well as volume.

Right, that's just one issue!

[pu12en12g]

Glycemic Index:

GI is simply a measure of how high the blood sugar rises in response to a given amount of CHO from various sources compared to a standard food (usually white bread or glucose). For example, carrots and potatoes have about the same high GI as sugar and white bread. However, carrots have only 195 calories per pound and a boiled potato has about 450 calories per pound while bread contains around 1250 calories per pound and sugar contains 1725 calories per pound. So the volume of food must increase dramatically for foods with a lower calorie density to be fed at the same CHO level. Since gastric expansion increases the rate of gastric emptying and CHO can only be absorbed after it leaves the stomach, this methodology creates a bias against lower calorie dense foods. Foods that lead to a higher osmolarity in the stomach can delay gastric emptying and this may also slow their absorption and lower the glycemic response. The reason sports drinks don’t have a high concentration of sugar is that it would delay gastric emptying and slow the absorption of water.

Insulin Score / Insulin Index:

Insulin Score (IS) or insulin index, is a measure of insulin output in response to a given caloric amount of various foods. Among foods with little fat or protein, the GI correlates fairly well with the IS. Dietary fat delays gastric emptying so any CHO consumed with a lot of fat usually results in a lower GI but because the fat magnifies the insulin output to a given rise in blood sugar, the IS is generally much higher than would be predicted based on the GI. For example, ice cream with its high fat content and high osmolarity has a fairly low GI, much lower than potatoes, rice or carrots. However, dietary fat greatly magnifies the insulin response to a given amount of CHO so the IS for ice cream is only slightly lower than that of potatoes and actually higher than white rice despite its much lower glycemic index. Dietary protein, like fat, also causes more insulin to be released; foods with no CHO at all cause a fairly substantial insulin response even though they have little effect on blood sugar.[7] It should be clear then that GI does not accurately predict the IS when foods vary considerably in their macronutrient composition and/or ED.

Conclusion:

The satiety index (SI) is a relatively new concept that measures how full or satiated people feel after consuming a given calorie load from a variety of foods. It is measured by asking people to rate how satiated they are after a meal and by how much food they will eat after a 2-hour delay after consuming the test food. So a high SI food would leave people more satisfied after eating a set amount of calories and they would also eat less 2 hours later when given something else to eat presumably because they were still less hungry. It seems likely that a diet made up of higher SI foods would likely lead to less hunger and a lower calorie intake. The notion that high GI foods lead to obesity ultimately rests on the assumption that GI equals Satiety Index (SI). It turns out that the highest SI food tested was the potato which is also one of the highest GI foods.[8] Clearly then the presumption that all high GI foods lead to overeating and obesity is not correct. Therefore, the theory that high GI foods invariably lead to excessive insulin output which in turn prevents fat burning and promotes fat storage and obesity is of little scientific merit. In fact, insulin output in response to a meal correlates far better with total calories consumed than it does with the relative GI of the various foods in that meal.

Insulin Spike:

This is when the pancreas reacts by releasing a large amount of insulin to help absorb glucose. We call this an "insulin spike." After that big spike comes the big valley. Because of all the insulin released to absorb that glucose, your body's blood glucose levels have dropped again. Remember, insulin's job is to help the cell absorb the extra glucose in the blood. Glucose is also the primary fuel source for the brain.

Simple carbs:

Simple carbs (for the most part) cause a quick insulin spike, and then drop you rather quickly, hence you crave more carbs soon after your insulin levels drop.

Complex carbs:

Complex carbohydrates cause a more gradual insulin spike. This allows you to feel fuller for a longer period of time, typically for the two to three hour duration between meals.

The 2 phases of insulin release / response:

1) The first phase of insulin release takes the form of a sharp spike in insulin that acts as a signal to the liver to shut off its release of glucose into the bloodstream.

2) In the second phase of insulin release, the pancreas secretes an extended wave of insulin that acts on cells throughout the body, enabling them to absorb the glucose ingested from the meal.

Note: So IF (and it's a big if) you choose high-gi, it is best to consume it over a period of time. An example would be spreading your weight gainer servings into several smaller servings, or sipping on your malto/dextrose drink over an hour or 2 instead of just downing it.

The controversy:

Signalling to glucose transport in skeletal muscle during exercise.
Exercise-induced glucose uptake in skeletal muscle is mediated by an insulin-independent mechanism. Although the signalling events that increase glucose transport in response to muscle contraction are not fully elucidated, the aim of the present review is to briefly present the current understanding of the molecular signalling mechanisms involved. Glucose uptake may be regulated by Ca++-sensitive contraction-related mechanisms possibly involving protein kinase C, and by mechanisms that reflect the metabolic status of the muscle and may involve the AMP-activated protein kinase. Furthermore the p38 mitogen activated protein kinase may be involved. Still, the picture is incomplete and a substantial part of the exercise/contraction-induced signalling mechanism to glucose transport remains unknown."

Post-workout specifically, your body will become more sensetive to all carb sources, thereby eliminating the need to consume a high-GI source. You get the effect of a high-GI carb. source (the "insulin spike") naturally, without having to actually consume a high-GI carb.

There simply isn't an exact study (to my knowledge anyway) that compares the rate of protein synthesis between our presented alternatives (high GI and low GI). I know most ecto's will favor the high GI side, and vice versa for endo's, but I know I'll never again put copious amounts of dextrose or malto in my body PW.

high GI has been shown to increased glycogen storage post workout

faster / increase glycogen storage does not mean faster repair or increased rate of protein synthesis.

faster / increase glycogen storage does not mean faster repair or increased rate of protein synthesis.

faster / increase glycogen storage does not mean faster repair or increased rate of protein synthesis.

The "Big Picture":

people should take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Thyroid hormone, growth hormone, the glucocorticoids (cortisol) and others set the basal metabolic rate and from this BMI the body determines the normal blood glucose levels to meet its needs. Insulin stimulates glucose utilization for energy as well as its storage as glycogen and/or fats to maintain this normal level. Glucagon mobilizes liver glycogen stores when blood glucose levels get low, it (glucagon) the synthesis of glucose from other carbon sources (e.g. lactate and/or amino acids), it stimulates those tissues that are able, to use fats or amino acids for energy, and it mobilizes fats from the adipose stores. On top of this is the effects of epinephrine and/or norepinephrine. These hormones ready skeletal muscle for the fight or flight response; in athletes it readies them for competition. Epinephrine and/or norepinephrine mobilize glycogen in skeletal muscle so the muscle has an adequate energy (glucose) supply and it stimulates the release of glucagon as well as some of the other hormones mentioned above. It's a very complex issue so I have come to the final conclusion.

In order to avoid being catabolic all day, it is best to eat low GI carbs sources - this is obvious as it would lessen the chance of the body circulating glucagon/cortisol and other catabolic hormones. I also think, post workout, that the insulin boost from the whey shake, coupled with the increased inslulin sensitivty of the tissues, makes oatmeal, or any low GI carb, a very good choice. Okay, that's my lecture, folks. For those of you who are new to the game, read this post about 10 times.

Thanks to:

Derekmac
Bobo
Lakevillethor
John Benz
Jweave
Rippedup
iamchris
AlphaIII

[pu12en12g]

Why oats ! ! ? ?

Old Fashioned Oatmeal — Make no mistake about it, oatmeal is the carb of choice for many bodybuilders. Even if you’re on a reduced carb diet, there’s nothing wrong with a serving of oatmeal (27g of carbs) to go along with your morning protein. Your body has been deprived of food all night, so some slow-acting carbs to replenish stores, plus some protein, make for a great bodybuilding breakfast.

Oatmeal has about three grams of natural unsaturated fats, five grams of protein, and two grams each of soluble and insoluble fiber. The fiber not only helps keep your pooper working properly, the soluble variety can help improve cholesterol levels, thus earning the American Heart Association’s "heart healthy" seal of approval.

Only buy oatmeal that lists "100% natural rolled oats" in the ingredients. That’s it! Oats should be the one and only ingredient. Do not purchase those individually packaged, flavored oatmeal products! Also, don’t screw up a good thing by adding milk and sugar. Eat your oatmeal like a man. And by the way, old fashioned oats cook up just fine in the microwave, no need to boil the water in a pot.

Oatmeal rocks. Make it a staple of your diet.

Oats:

Claims

- Helps decrease blood cholesterol levels
- Soothes skin irritated by eczema, dryness, minor burns, or other conditions
- Promotes relaxation
- Traditionally, oats have been used to treat nervous exhaustion and insomnia
- Aids in nicotine withdrawal

Theory

Any medicinal qualities of oats can be attributed to the seeds of the plant that contain chemicals called alkaloids (thought to account for the relaxing effect of oat supplementation) and saponins. The seeds are also rich in iron, manganese, and zinc, and oat straw is high in silica. Its high fiber content is thought to contribute to the cholesterol-lowering effect of eating oatmeal on a regular basis.

Scientific Support

The majority of scientific studies performed with oats relate to their role in helping to lower blood cholesterol, particularly LDL (“bad”) cholesterol. Oats, like psyllium (used in Metamucil and other laxatives) and pectin are all types of soluble fiber. In one study, after only 3 servings of oatmeal, levels of LDL cholesterol were decreased slightly. However, this effect was not different from the effect of either psyllium or pectin fibers. Other studies support the use of eating oatmeal for lowering cholesterol levels, particularly in individuals with high cholesterol. It is important to note that an overall healthy diet is required – oatmeal ingestion cannot counteract high intake of animal fats containing cholesterol

Safety

Oatmeal has high nutritional value at every stage of life. Furthermore, oats have not been associated with any adverse effects.

Value

Avena sativa is sold in tablet, liquid pellet, and in extract form, and can be quite pricey. It makes more sense, from both nutritional and financial perspectives, to buy a box of oatmeal and to eat it for breakfast, to make or buy oat bran cereal or muffins, or to sprinkle oat bran onto your favorite foods and soups. As an aid for irritated skin, many specialty soaps contain oats, as do many bath soaks (such as Aveeno).

Dosage

In addition to eating oats in the form of oatmeal as a breakfast cereal, oats can be made into a tea by boiling one heaping tablespoon with a cup of water. Many forms of oat supplements can be purchased at health food stores.

[spoonman]

thanks for summing it up pu....great post


Reps

[Maki_Man]

GL is important too. It gives a fuller picture... For instance, some low GI carbs can increase insulin to a greater degree than high GI carbs. GI, GL, IS, SI, etc... All are tools which should be used judiciously when approaching any goal.

[pu12en12g]

Why Oats ! ! ? ? (continued...)

Oats have saponins(such as avenacosides), flavonoids, minerals, alkaloids (such as gramine and avenine), steroidal compounds, vitamins B1, B2, D, E, carotene, gluten, starch and fat. All of these make oats an excellent nerve tonic to recover from nervous exhaustion due to stress, depression, lethargy, or as a preventative in difficult times to cope better. Oatmeal is also useful externally to relieve itching from rashes such as chicken pox, eczema, cold sores, and shingles.

Effect of Avena Sativa (oat bran) enriched diet on the atherogenic lipid profile in patients with an increased coronary heart disease risk.

AIM: To study whether an Avena Sativa bran enriched diet has a specific effect in lowering total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterols, in addition to caloric and fat restriction. We performed a randomized, controlled, parallel-group, single-centre study in which 1,994 patients from the Wehrawald Hospital were screened and 235 met the criteria male gender, hypercholesterolemia, and overweight. All patients in the Hospital took part in a 4-week standardized inpatient lifestyle health program consisting of dietary intervention, increased physical activity, and health education. Caloric restriction, fat modification, and Avena Sativa bran supplementation were part of the nutritional regimen within the lifestyle health program. Ninety-nine patients were randomized to a fat-modified diet with caloric restriction and a daily intake of 35-50 g Avena Sativa bran and 136 patients to a fat-modified, Avena Sativa-free diet with caloric restriction. Fifty-three male overweight but normocholesterolemic subjects were selected as controls.

RESULTS: The most significant decreases in total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and apolipoprotein B were found with the combination of the fat-modified and Avena Sativa enriched food.

CONCLUSIONS: Added to a fat-modified diet, Avena Sativa bran within a practical range of intake significantly reduces total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and apolipoprotein B.

A Brief History of Oats - And How You Should Eat Them
By By John K. Williams, Ph.D.
First published at www.johnberardi.com, Sept 5 2003.

Despite their widespread praise by nutritionists and bodybuilders alike, oats have a humble origin. They were the last of the major cereal grains to be domesticated, around 3,000 years ago in Europe, and apparently originated as weeds that grew within cultivated fields of various other crops.

Part of the reason why people were slow to embrace oats is because they go rancid very quickly, due to the presence of natural fats and a fat dissolving enzyme present in the grain. As a result, they have to be processed immediately after harvesting. The fats in oats are relatively healthy, with a lipid breakdown of 21% saturated, 37% monounsaturated, and 43% polyunsaturated.

Greeks and Romans considered oats to be nothing more than a diseased version of wheat. Oats were a lowly horse food for the Romans, who scoffed at the "oat-eating barbarians", or those pesky Germanic tribes who eventually toppled the West Roman Empire. Come to think of it, the Romans were never able to conquer the Scots. Big oat eaters, those Scots. Oats 2, Romans 0.

Even today, less than 5% of the oats now grown commercially are for human consumption. The chief value of oats remains as a pasturage and hay crop, especially for horses. Thousands of years and several empires later, most people still haven’t caught-on.

Oats, What’s So Good About Them?

Oats contain more soluble fiber than any other grain. Soluble fiber is the kind that dissolves in water, so the body turns it into a kind of thick, viscous gel, which moves very slowly through your body. One of the benefits is that your stomach stays fuller longer, providing satiety. Soluble fiber also slows the absorption of glucose into the body, which means you're going to avoid those nasty sugar highs and lows. Last but not least, it inhibits the re-absorption of bile into the system, forcing your liver to get its cholesterol fix from your blood. This serves to lower your blood-serum cholesterol. See what the Romans were missing?

Oats also have anti-inflammatory properties, and have been clinically shown to help heal dry, itchy skin. Oats are also highly absorptive, hypoallergenic, and help to soften skin, if you’re into that kind of thing. They have the best amino acid balance of all the cereal grains, and thus can be used as water-binding agents in skin care products. Oat grains and straw appear in shampoos, dusting powders, moisturizers, cleansing bars, breast implants, and astronaut suits. OK, maybe those last two are figments of my imagination.

Varieties of Oats

From least to most processed:

Oat groats, or whole oats: These are minimally processed, only by removing the outer hull. They are very nutritious, but need to be cooked and/or soaked for a long period of time to so you don’t break your teeth on them.

Oat bran: This is the outer casing that is removed from the groats. The bran is particularly high in soluble fiber. Oat bran is very versatile, and can be used with groats or alone, and as an addition to baking recipes, or even raw in shakes.

Steel-cut oats, or Irish oats: These are groats that have been chopped into small pieces. They have a firmer texture than rolled oats, and people in the know often prefer them for hot oatmeal cereals and muesli. A tip on purchasing steel-cut oats: some of the name brand varieties are prohibitively expensive, so search for them in bulk, where you can fill an entire tub of protein powder (empty it first!) for $5 US.

Rolled oats, or old-fashioned oats: These are oat groats that are steamed and flattened with huge rollers so that they cook quicker, in about 5 to 15 minutes.

Quick oats: These are groats that have been cut into several pieces before being steamed and rolled into thinner flakes, thus reducing the cooking time to 3-5 minutes. While they cook quicker, any oat aficionado will tell you that they lack the hearty texture and nutty flavor of the less-processed varieties.

Instant oats: These are made by chopping groats into tiny pieces, precooking them, drying them, then smashing them with a big roller. They need only be mixed with a hot liquid. They usually have flavorings and salt added. All of this processing removes all traces of the original texture and rich flavor of the groats.

Oat flour: Oat flour is made from groats that have been ground into a powder, and contains no gluten so it does not rise like wheat flour. It can also be made at home by grinding rolled oats into a powder in a blender.

[glsa17]

I use:
dextrose - 20g
maltodextrin - 20g
quick oats - 20g
old fashioned oats - 20g
plus protein - 40+g

[pu12en12g]

I was just referring to your usage when I mentioned "insulin spike"... Honestly, I don't know what the difference is between insulin "response" vs. "spike". Perhaps for the sake of this discussion, we could define it. Otherwise, I'm at a loss..

<img src="http://technologyorgasm.com/upload/protein_insulin.jpg">

[pu12en12g]

NOTE: WHY the following is important:

Alot of guys are taking a 50 / 50 mix of malto / dextrose WITH PROTEIN to enhance the rate of glycogen storage post-workout (EVEN THOUGH, thanks to Bobo, we know that this isn't even necessary).

This study used a 50/50 mix of malto / dextrose and compared it to 50/50 malto / dextrose + whey / milk protein. Although the rate of glycogen storage was "faster" (which again, we know isn't necessary) with just 50/50 malto / dextrose, it wasn't when combined with whey / milk protein:

<img src="http://technologyorgasm.com/upload/glycogen_rate.jpg">

[Maki_Man]

<img src="http://technologyorgasm.com/upload/protein_insulin.jpg">

Pu12en12g, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Can you clarify please?

[323mattb]

folks put too much stock in the idea that a food's GI can effect all of these negative cascades. sorry to inform ya, but there are too many elements that render GI almost useless. if you really think that you got fat from 1 daily high-GI carb serving (within a mixed meal, no less), then you've got placebo syndrome in full effect. the studies cited in this thread do not necessarily refute anyone's position, by the way.. you guys are gonna (hopefully) love the article i'm working on regarding this very subject. i just got some great data mailed to me from researcher robert demling in the mail yesterday, so the article will finally be finished very soon, & i plan to light up a lot of issues being discussed here.

bump

[PSU-Muscle]

For all of you that use dex/malto in your post-workout, how much do you use? I am currently using 1/4 cup of each.

[Maki_Man]

I agree, in my opinion, GI is a limited tool at best. You need to take a look at the big picture and not be fixated on GI scores. Also, most guys are eating mixed meals so the GL of the meal should be taken into account, not just the GI or GL of the carb by itself...

[pu12en12g]

A great summary from alan:

if you got your preW nutrition right, then after a workout, you shouldn't need nutrients "right away" -- you rather should be still absorbing nutrients from either your pre or during-workout shake, that way you're ALREADY getting the nutrients "right away". this concept applies to fears of insignificant amounts of fat & fiber postW. the purpose of the postworkout shake shouldn't be to make up for a poorly executed preW strategy. the true purpose of the postW shake should be to provide the body with a maximal degree of both macro & micronutrients for recovery, taking advantage of the body's heightened insulin sensitivity & bias toward partitioning substrates into the lean tissue instead of the adipose tissue. yes hyperinsulinemia & glycogenesis are legitimate postW objectives, but this can be achieved with the right total amounts of prot & carbs. one key element here is that there's only so much carb the body can absorb in a given unit of time. this means that total amount is much more important than GI. dextrose (or a sucrose mix like gatorade) should only be a minor contributor to the postW carb mix, if at all. this is because it is a low-grade carb source, regardless of timing.

[shane the pain]

O.K.,
I have read this whole thread, and others like it, (it took me hours/days), and I have a question. Please answer...

I would like to give the low-GI/oats a try.

I have taken up boxing lately, which is about 3 hours of intense/sweating activity, every day. If I consume oats about 70 minutes before I go to the boxing gym, what should I do during my exercise?

Lately, I have been sipping Gatorade through-out my boxing routine.
(I lift weights in the beginning of the day, and box in the evening.)

Should I be sipping Gatorade, since it's a simple/quick sugar/energy? Am I ruining the idea of the low GI principle?

<center><b><font size="3">Will the oats before and after, with gatorade sipped during my 3 hours of boxing, keep my in an anabolic state?</font></b></center>

I want to consume the proper nutrition pre and during, to prevent a catabolic state, so that the GI of the Post-Workout carbs are not as important, so I can avoid all that sugar, since I actually need to lost about 10 pounds, and really cut-up, to get into the Welterweight division.

<b>Could I just drink water, or will the Gatorade during my workout help?</b>

Would those who are advocates of the oats for pre & post work-out suggest something else? Would I be doing the right thing?

BTW, I think this thread is great. Full of a lot of info. I enjoy discussions like this, hearing both sides of the argument.

Thanks!
Shane "the pain"

[American Hunk]

lord have mercy. are we still arguing about this after all these years. when will the madness end?

Here's the answer to PWO shakes: 40-50g whey+ 40g ground oats+ 20g dex/maltose. you can also add creatine/cee, cm, etc, but that's not the main point here.

Can we end the madness now?

[pu12en12g]

3 hours of intense/sweating activity, every day.

For 3 hours of training, try sipping on a 50/50 Malto Dextrose mix, with plenty of water. Also, give glycerine a try.

Oats (OR ANY LOW GI CARB SOURCE) pre and post-workout is fine.

[Sixpack]

3 hours in the gym damn

[shane the pain]

Thanks pu12en12g, I was hoping you would chime in.

Shane

[dookie1481]

Do you guys really believe that the difference between ingesting 50g dex and 50g oats post-workout will manifest it self in anything less than years? I enjoy reading and learning about this stuff, but frankly, sometimes it comes down to lifting and eating. I use dex/malto because it is convienient and it tastes great.

I will leave you with an interesting observation from Lyle McDonald:

amusing comment, one study (I'd have to dig to find it) I saw last year suggestd that low GI carbs had a lower blood glucose excursion because of LARGER initial insulin response (which cleared glucose and kept levels down). If this is replicated, it will throw a rather big wrench into the whole low GI = low insulin = fat loss or the entire insulin = fat gain paradigm.