CEE and kidney trouble...

[david4zero8]

Don't worry. I know at least some of us got it. The subtlety of sarcasm and irony are lost on most people around here.

No really. What is creatine?

[ocyeoman]

L-Glutamine would fit into this as well...

The L-Glutamine thing is a real shame too. Ross labs packages it along with arginine and HMB as a supplement called Juven to help AIDs patients maintain muscle and they charge an exhorbitant price for it. Exhorbitant as in $190 for a 30 day supply. Fleecing dying people is my idea of evil, especially considering the active ingredient in the product is most likely just the HMB. I guess EAS also markets the product to athletes as Muscle Armor. Either way it's overpriced HMB. Just an FYI: HMB is my favorite supp ever and it's guaranteed not to eff up your kidneys.

[lagos777]

I rarely post on BB but have been on the board for a long time. This is a very interesting thread to me. I'm a practising Nephrologist ( kidney specialist) and also an avid workout buff. I also happen to supplement with CEE. I have not run into any trouble with it. Can it cause kidney failure, hell yeah, so can Tylenol and Alleve. Actually, I have over 100 dialysis patients and some of them ended up on dialysis because of daily Alleve or Motrim use. I have a lady that dveloped acute kidney failure from chinese tea. Different strokes for different folks.

With regards to the elevated creatinine discuss, creatinine is a marker of kidney failure. Creatinine itself has not been found to be harmful to the body or kidneys. An enzyme found abundantly in muscle called Creatine Kinase catalyzes the production of high energy ATP via transfer of a phosphate from creatine phosphate, which is the major storage reservoir of energy during muscle rest, to ADP (adenosine diphosphate) which muscle uses as active fuel. The loss of the phosphate group from Creatine phosphate leads to CREATININE.

The normal value is diff for several groups of people. Why ? because creatinine is a clearance marker. When you measure a single value, it does not take into account of how much Creatinine your body is making, it certainly does not take into account that you're eating more creatinine than the Joe that eats regular red meat. So, the population studies used to get the " normal values" are standardized to Age, Race, Weight, Nutrition status, and Sex. But not to body building muscle mass or Creatine ingestion. The main source of creatinine in the body is muscle. The researchers have all tried to standardize the values to muscle mass by using race, weight and age as factors. They propose that Blacks has more muscle mass than the Whites, Mexicans and Asians. That man has more muscle mass than woman. They use a Body surface area calculations.

In lay man terms,

If normal kidney strenght is 100. And the body produces 50 of creatinine from muscle breakdown and we eat 51 of creatinine daily, the normal blood creatinine would stay around 1. ie (50 +51) - 100 = 1 .
But if you're a body builder and work out daily, you have more muscle mass, 3 times more, you breakdown more muscle, 3 times as much than the average joe, so you're looking at creatinine production of 150. PLUS, you're now ingesting CEE which is mostly converted to Creatinine, lets say, 200. Sudenly the equation looks like this (150- +200) - 100 . You get my Drift ?

So, for instance, if you ingest large quantities of creatinine and raise your serum creatinine to say, 2-3 , it does not been your kidney has failed, it just means you overwhelmed your clearance capacity. The studies that were used to get the standardise normal value did not take into account people ingetsing CEE or other forms of Creatine. A higher Creatinine level does not mean you have weaker kidneys. As a matter of fact, Body builders have a higher creatinine level than the general populace. FACT. Does not translate to weaker kidneys. The only way we can check kidney function for sure is to a do something like an Inulin or Iothalamate clearance, even this timed clearance tests are not 100%.

[Rushi]

I rarely post on BB but have been on the board for a long time. This is a very interesting thread to me. I'm a practising Nephrologist ( kidney specialist) and also an avid workout buff. I also happen to supplement with CEE. I have not run into any trouble with it. Can it cause kidney failure, hell yeah, so can Tylenol and Alleve. Actually, I have over 100 dialysis patients and some of them ended up on dialysis because of daily Alleve or Motrim use. I have a lady that dveloped acute kidney failure from chinese tea. Different strokes for different folks.

With regards to the elevated creatinine discuss, creatinine is a marker of kidney failure. Creatinine itself has not been found to be harmful to the body or kidneys. An enzyme found abundantly in muscle called Creatine Kinase catalyzes the production of high energy ATP via transfer of a phosphate from creatine phosphate, which is the major storage reservoir of energy during muscle rest, to ADP (adenosine diphosphate) which muscle uses as active fuel. The loss of the phosphate group from Creatine phosphate leads to CREATININE.

The normal value is diff for several groups of people. Why ? because creatinine is a clearance marker. When you measure a single value, it does not take into account of how much Creatinine your body is making, it certainly does not take into account that you're eating more creatinine than the Joe that eats regular red meat. So, the population studies used to get the " normal values" are standardized to Age, Race, Weight, Nutrition status, and Sex. But not to body building muscle mass or Creatine ingestion. The main source of creatinine in the body is muscle. The researchers have all tried to standardize the values to muscle mass by using race, weight and age as factors. They propose that Blacks has more muscle mass than the Whites, Mexicans and Asians. That man has more muscle mass than woman. They use a Body surface area calculations.

In lay man terms,

If normal kidney strenght is 100. And the body produces 50 of creatinine from muscle breakdown and we eat 51 of creatinine daily, the normal blood creatinine would stay around 1. ie (50 +51) - 100 = 1 .
But if you're a body builder and work out daily, you have more muscle mass, 3 times more, you breakdown more muscle, 3 times as much than the average joe, so you're looking at creatinine production of 150. PLUS, you're now ingesting CEE which is mostly converted to Creatinine, lets say, 200. Sudenly the equation looks like this (150- +200) - 100 . You get my Drift ?

So, for instance, if you ingest large quantities of creatinine and raise your serum creatinine to say, 2-3 , it does not been your kidney has failed, it just means you overwhelmed your clearance capacity. The studies that were used to get the standardise normal value did not take into account people ingetsing CEE or other forms of Creatine. A higher Creatinine level does not mean you have weaker kidneys. As a matter of fact, Body builders have a higher creatinine level than the general populace. FACT. Does not translate to weaker kidneys. The only way we can check kidney function for sure is to a do something like an Inulin or Iothalamate clearance, even this timed clearance tests are not 100%.

good post lagos. hopefully this will clear a few things up for some people

[Rushi]

I hate to unnecessarily feed this discussion, but I'm left a little dumbfounded since it seems the Musclegurus thread has been abandoned. In that thread the Ergopharm guy seemed to inadvertently reveal how and why CEE is useless to us. This seems pretty conclusive to me, especially coming from someone who markets CEE. Shouldn't this be making waves?

ocyeoman,

could you please expand on your statements here?

specifically, the "how and why CEE is useless" that you claim was "inadvertently [revealed]" by matt

[IntensityX]

The L-Glutamine thing is a real shame too. Ross labs packages it along with arginine and HMB as a supplement called Juven to help AIDs patients maintain muscle and they charge an exhorbitant price for it. Exhorbitant as in $190 for a 30 day supply. Fleecing dying people is my idea of evil, especially considering the active ingredient in the product is most likely just the HMB. I guess EAS also markets the product to athletes as Muscle Armor. Either way it's overpriced HMB. Just an FYI: HMB is my favorite supp ever and it's guaranteed not to eff up your kidneys.

A $190 for a 30 day supply damn talk about taking people to the cleaners.

A company like that should be shut down for overcharging like that.Especially to people with a terminal disease like AIDS.What a bunch of pricks

[ocyeoman]

ocyeoman,

could you please expand on your statements here?

specifically, the "how and why CEE is useless" that you claim was "inadvertently [revealed]" by matt

Sure. Of course one can't say with certainty whether something was inadvertaint or not, but that was certainly my impression. His explanation seemed very "out of the frying pan and into the fire". If nothing else, it certainly suggested how little we know of how CEE functions within the body and how what we do know calls into question the efficacy of the substance. Matt even stated that there could be a 100% degradation in the body did he not?

I'm no chemist, but to my understanding (and apparently everyone else's) he basically rebutted an experiment detailed in the paper that suggested CEE was likely creatinine by suggesting himself that CEE rapidly degrades into creatinine and did so in that particular experiment. Further, his elaboration suggested that CEE may be so unstable that it can serve no ergogenic purpose. Mind you, I am obviously simplifying and I am also cribbing from other people's analyses. This seemed to be the conclusion of the thread reached by others and no follow-up post was offered if a correction was indeed due. If a correction is due now then by all means feel free. As I said, I'm no chemist. I'm just working through this logically.

If we know that CEE is very temperamental and rapidly degrades into creatinine and we also know that CEE supplementation causes something to the effect of a 90% spike in serum creatinine (again someone else's figure that went uncontested) would logic not follow that the CEE one ingests is mostly if not totally degrading into creatinine? Where is the ergogenic benefit in that? If one believes that not all the CEE they ingest degrades, then to experience an ergogenic benefit one would have to supplement with an amount of CEE that would cause the kidney problems covered in this thread. As I stated earlier, I started taking 6g of CEE a day because I wasn't experiencing the benefit everyone else claimed to be. That level is where I started experiencing pain.

I hope that made sense. It was very stream of thought since I am swamped at work.

[SDSU]

I am still skeptical about CEE, but this thread has been very useful. Every supplement company seems to have produced their own version of CEE. if CEE is truly toxic to the kidneys to consume, wouldnt all of these supplement companies not want to sell products with CEE? Maybe i am just being ignorant, but i dont think every supplement company will put out faultly and dangerous products just to profit off of people. Even the more trusted companies such as Universal, BSN, etc.., would seem to have some moral and ethical beliefs of just not scruing customers over with a false product. Most companies have their own version of CEE, I think they would go to great lengths to make sure that CEE is in fact safe to consume, to not give themselves a bad image in the supplement industry and loose customers. The only thing that can be done about CEE is to try it and if it works, stick with it and if symptoms occur ,get off of it. It still confuses my why more company reps. dont have anything to defend their products, just goes to show how new CEE truly is.

[carcinogen]

Blood has a great capacity to buffer its own pH. Is it good enough to buffer the pH change that CEE.HCl introduces? I dont know. The change in blood pH will dictate how much gets converted into creatinine.
Is it likely that it gets converted to 100% creatinine? No. Even creatine, when subjected to basic or acidic solutions created an equilibrium between to two (creatine and creatinine).

[carcinogen]

with 90% spike in creatinine levels - that isnt the amount of CEE that was converted to creatinine - that is
(total creatinine levels - baseline levels)/(baseline creatinine levels) * 100

or something like that...

[Rushi]

with 90% spike in creatinine levels - that isnt the amount of CEE that was converted to creatinine - that is
(creatinine levels + creatinine levels after supplementation)/(baseline creatinine levels) * 100

or something like that...

change the plus to a minus

[dhatcher]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I visited the Doctors today and had my blood taken (the creatinine levels will be tested).

I found out my level back in March (before any creatine use) was at .98. I will keep everyone informed to what my new level comes back at as soon as I get the results.

I just wanted to post this in the interim because I said I would keep everyone up to date on what happens.

[Rushi]

change the plus to a minus

also gotta take the absolute value for percent change

or switch up the before/after for percent increase/decrease

[(after - before)/before] * 100

[KD1]

The thing is DHatcher, if your creatinine is abnormal on CEE and normal while off it, that means your kidneys are fine, not that the CEE is hurting you. If your creatinine is high while off CEE than you have kidney problems.

[carcinogen]

I fixed it - such a perfectionist

[Kohen_Gadol]

good post lagos. hopefully this will clear a few things up for some people

I agree...assuming what he posted about creatinine not be harmful is indeed, true.

Perhaps the caveat is not needed or perhaps it is...the guy has 3 posts

BK

[lagos777]

I agree...assuming what he posted about creatinine not be harmful is indeed, true.

Perhaps the caveat is not needed or perhaps it is...the guy has 3 posts

BK

Everything I have posted here is medical science. Pls do a google search and find one single article that says creatinine is harmful, I will give you a thousand dollars. I have PD ( peritoneal dialysis) patients with creatinine of 10 all year long. Thats normal for them . They do Dialysis everyday and feel perfectly fine. Creatinine is a normal product of muscle work. All the Creatine you supplement gets turned to Creatinine or you've watsed your time. Refer to how Creatine as a supplement works and you will see what I'm talking about.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Blood has a great capacity to buffer its own pH. Is it good enough to buffer the pH change that CEE.HCl introduces? I dont know. The change in blood pH will dictate how much gets converted into creatinine.
Is it likely that it gets converted to 100% creatinine? No. Even creatine, when subjected to basic or acidic solutions created an equilibrium between to two (creatine and creatinine).

I don't agree. Your plasma pH level can be changed maybe 0.10-0.25 on the
pH scale via changes in respiration (blowing off CO2) and maybe a little
more through metabolic mechanisms (HCO3-, etc.) but the
metabolic route is not nearly as fast as the respiratory route and so far
we haven't heard about people downing 5g of CEE and then hyperventilating.

I think an easy way to see if the body is "compensating" for CEE is to
dip a urine for pH testing to see what it is.

Generally, when urine pH is 6.0 and below for extended periods of time, it is an indication that the body's fluids elsewhere are too acid, and it is working overtime to rid itself of an acid medium. When the urine pH is overly acid, the body releases too many electrolytes to keep the pH level normal and maintain life.

All you need is a paper test strip and a few volunteers (admitting that
other things can influence urine pH too so we can't have n =1-3, maybe
we need n = 10-15 to test this hypothesis...I'm not running a power
test on this ad hoc idea though ).

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

Everything I have posted here is medical science. Pls do a google search and find one single article that says creatinine is harmful, I will give you a thousand dollars. I have PD ( peritoneal dialysis) patients with creatinine of 10 all year long. Thats normal for them . They do Dialysis everyday and feel perfectly fine. Creatinine is a normal product of muscle work. All the Creatine you supplement gets turned to Creatinine or you've watsed your time. Refer to how Creatine as a supplement works and you will see what I'm talking about.

I understand perfectly well how creatine works and the role of CPK.

What you're missing here is not the qualitative aspect but the quantitative.

Radiolabelled CEE caused a 90% increase in plasma creatinine levels in
less than 30 minutes after oral dosing.

So either CEE somehow miraculously causes an immediate doubling of
intramuscular ATP storges (unlikely), interferes with CPK (I'd like to
know which isoenzymes are affected if this is the case) or spontaneously
is degraded into creatinine when it hit's the plasma.

I might be a lot less worried if the effect were cumulative over a 4 week
period with a gradual increase of plasma creatinine levels.

The same effect (essentially a doubling of plasma creatinine levels) is not
seen thus far with any other studied creatine salt/ester that I know of.

So if you are convinced all the CEE is being used to rephoshorylated ADP
to ATP, and it happens in less than an hour after ingestion, I'd be
very interested so see why you think this way.

If not...then you have to admit there is something else going on here (the
logical conclusion).

Either way, more study is needed - and until I know what the mechanism
is that is causing the spike in PlCr levels, I'd staying away from this stuff.

YMMV,


BK

[ocyeoman]

Everything I have posted here is medical science. Pls do a google search and find one single article that says creatinine is harmful, I will give you a thousand dollars. I have PD ( peritoneal dialysis) patients with creatinine of 10 all year long. Thats normal for them . They do Dialysis everyday and feel perfectly fine. Creatinine is a normal product of muscle work. All the Creatine you supplement gets turned to Creatinine or you've watsed your time. Refer to how Creatine as a supplement works and you will see what I'm talking about.

So would you be willing to venture a guess as to the true culprit of these kidney pains and problems? Please excuse my pedestrian understanding of chemistry and physiology, but could it be the strain on the kidneys due to high creatinine levels in conjunction with the high protein diets we are all most likely on?

[lagos777]

Kohen, I really dont want to drawn into is CEE safe argument because I don't that for certain. What I know is that when you say Creatinine is hurting your kidneys, you're wrong. Creatinine does not stress or hurt your kidney. A pill of Advil will hurt your kidneys more than a bottle of Creatinine. You can have people on CEE with higher creatine levels because maybe
1. CEE is poorly excreted by the kidneys
2. CEE is degraded to Creatinine prior to getting into your body by stomach acid
3. CEE is degraded into Creatinine in the blood before muscle uptake.
4. CEE is ****.
I don't know.

But, lets say, CEE raises your creatinine, which is highly possible, if you really read my post, how do you translate that to " Creatinine hurts your kidneys".

[lagos777]

So would you be willing to venture a guess as to the true culprit of these kidney pains and problems? Please excuse my pedestrian understanding of chemistry and physiology, but could it be the strain on the kidneys due to high creatinine levels in conjunction with the high protein diets we are all most likely on?

It may just be an allergy to constituents of the supplement. Not necessarily the CEE. Not saying it's not the CEE. You could also have an allergy to that too. We have to be careful here. Many people uses this supplement without any problem. Like I said before, I have patients that end up on dialysis because of Alleve or Motrin. People end up with liver failure and die because they took Tylenol. **** happens.

If CEE really hurt your kidneys, your Creatinine won't get better a week after getting of of it.

Bottomline, If you're having problems with CEE quit taking it.

[lagos777]

Wow, I'm glad to see this topic has gotten some attention over here. Good job rjet!!! However I am disappointed that the issue of CEE's true chemical identity has not arisen. I am further disapointed that no company rep nor one of the many scientifically knowledgable members have thrown their hats in the ring to sink their teeth into the crux of this issue.

Experiencing kidney irritation myself, I started doing research on CEE's safety. I found nothing directy on that subject, however I did find a good deal of literature calling into question whether even creatine ethyl ester even exists. I posted it all at AM and it's pretty damning if I do say so myself. People have thrown tomatoes at me for attacking a sacred cow, but no one has refuted anything I've posted. Frankly, I was kind of hoping someone would because I have a kilo of CEE left. The whole thread is a fascinating discussion, a real testament to the good bunch of guys over there, but here is a particularly interesting page: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...l-ester-8.html

However, since I am not a chemist, I invite anyone who has more of a science background to examine the paper I posted that throws cold water on Dox and Yoder's original creatine ehtyl ester work. Since the original patent for commercial creatine ethyl ester is based on the work of Dox and Yoder, by extension it also throws cold water on that too. If it was proven that Dox and Yoder created nothing but creatinine in their method to synthesize creatine ethyl ester, does it not follow that since the commercial patent to synthesize creatine ethyl ester used Dox and Yoder's methodology that it also creates nothing but creatinine? I'm not saying that CEE products contain nothing but creatinine, but I doubt they contain CEE. From what I've been able to gather they contain regular old creatine monohydrate and creatinine, just like the cheap Chinese creatine of yor. For people wondering about their COA: read it closely. It just confirms that the substance conforms to the manufacturing spec and is untainted and uncut, not what the actual chemical identify of the substance (CEE) is.

My point in saying all that is this: if a large percentage of a supposed CEE product is creatinine, could that not be causing all these kidney woes? I mean, if you are ingesting straight creatinine wouldn't that cause your serum levels to rise higher than if you were taking monohydrate? Isn't it said that not all mono degrades to creatinine in the body and is just excreted as creatinine?

This looks like an explanation to the high serum Creatinine imbroglio. Maybe this products are just Creatine monohydrate + Creatinine. That would surely raise your serum Creatinine level, does not necessary translate to " hurting your kidneys thou".

[lagos777]

So would you be willing to venture a guess as to the true culprit of these kidney pains and problems? Please excuse my pedestrian understanding of chemistry and physiology, but could it be the strain on the kidneys due to high creatinine levels in conjunction with the high protein diets we are all most likely on?

BTW, if you don't have baseline kidney disease, protein supplementation is OK. For those with kidney disease, the jury is still out. We used to tell them not to take high protein diet because it increases proteinuria but the big MDRD study kinda knocked that advice. Now we just tell them to use a normal protein diet.

[Joel]

This is just my personal opinion (obviously), but this thread seems to be acting like a placebo itself. Guy shows up saying his kidneys got fooked up due to CEE, and then a bunch of people start noticing lower back pain. I am not discrediting anyones thoghts/opinions here, nor am I trying to validify CEE's safety - I am not qualified to do so. I am merely saying the power of the placebo works both ways, as is evidenced in this thread.

Now that you mentioned it , I am feeling a slight tingle in my kidney

No more CEE for me

[RepubCarrier]

Blood has a great capacity to buffer its own pH. Is it good enough to buffer the pH change that CEE.HCl introduces? I dont know. The change in blood pH will dictate how much gets converted into creatinine.
Is it likely that it gets converted to 100% creatinine? No. Even creatine, when subjected to basic or acidic solutions created an equilibrium between to two (creatine and creatinine).

Wouldn't this just raise more questions, i.e. the unintended effects of changing your blood PH to THREE or FOUR? Is there even enough HCL in 3-5g of CEE to do this?

I think it is safe to say that by far the most likely scenario is mass conversion to creatinine in the bloodstream (or at some point prior to that). I can't say anything about the stuff not working, though... weren't you guys running a clinical trial (Ziegenfuss? not sure), stopped halfway against your will, which was trending very strongly towards CEE being superior to mono for strength/hypertrophy increases? How is this the case at all? One would think taking creatine mono vs. placebo/nothing would have trended towards significance, or already reached significance, with mono being ahead of placebo. I think this is the big question left here... creatinine very well may be anabolic.

I am not drawing that conclusion, just saying that something needs to be clarified here if this is not the case.

[Kohen_Gadol]

It may just be an allergy to constituents of the supplement. Not necessarily the CEE. Not saying it's not the CEE. You could also have an allergy to that too. We have to be careful here. Many people uses this supplement without any problem. Like I said before, I have patients that end up on dialysis because of Alleve or Motrin. People end up with liver failure and die because they took Tylenol. **** happens.

If CEE really hurt your kidneys, your Creatinine won't get better a week after getting of of it.

Bottomline, If you're having problems with CEE quit taking it.

It's "not an allergy" - not if everyone one in a test cohort experienced the
same AE. You should read the abstract/data at the FDA filed on this before
making this judgement. Because then you probably would not.

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

Wouldn't this just raise more questions, i.e. the unintended effects of changing your blood PH to THREE or FOUR? Is there even enough HCL in 3-5g of CEE to do this?

I think it is safe to say that by far the most likely scenario is mass conversion to creatinine in the bloodstream (or at some point prior to that). I can't say anything about the stuff not working, though... weren't you guys running a clinical trial (Ziegenfuss? not sure), stopped halfway against your will, which was trending very strongly towards CEE being superior to mono for strength/hypertrophy increases? How is this the case at all? One would think taking creatine mono vs. placebo/nothing would have trended towards significance, or already reached significance, with mono being ahead of placebo. I think this is the big question left here... creatinine very well may be anabolic.

I am not drawing that conclusion, just saying that something needs to be clarified here if this is not the case.

OK, at this point I have to make something public - In the AAKG vs CEE vs
SizeOn study where Ziegenfuss presented a poster at ISSN, some of the
data has been withheld pending further analysis (regarding 3g dosing of
CEE). I can't divulge the nature of this data as it would make the work
unpublishable. Suffice it to say Tim Ziegenfuss is the guy who will
address this in time (via publication/presentation).

Do not ask me about the data set - I will not discuss it other than to say
you be safe to assume I have a reason for posting what I am.

Time will be the bearer of the truth here.

A blood ph below 6 is generally incompatable with life (FYI).

A blood pH of 3-4 is impossible (if you want to live).

And 3-5g of CEE-HCl is not enough to cause such a precipitous drop in
blood pH.

3-5g of CEE-HCl is "not self buffering" in 5 liters of fluid.


BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

Many people uses this supplement without any problem. Like I said before, I have patients that end up on dialysis because of Alleve or Motrin. People end up with liver failure and die because they took Tylenol. **** happens.

Thats really insulting. How would you know if you had a PlCr of 3.5+ (I'd
consider this a problem) if there were no clinical symptoms? You claimed
you have renal patients on peritoneal dialysate who walk around with a PlCr
of 10 and it's baseline for them. No way. No nephrologist worth his or her
salt would let someone walk around with a PlCr of 10 for months on end
without trying something to bring it down. Either a switch to traditional
QOD dialysis through a fistula or through some other treatment.

I had the benefit of working in a dialysis clinic as the manager for about
a year. Sorry, if you have patients running around with fluid in their
gut and a PlCr of 10, there is something wrong with what they are doing
or something wrong with what you are doing.

You also need a pretty serious dose of an NSAID to end up with renal
insufficiency. Either low level chronic exposure over a fairly long time
or a serious (acute overdose) amount ingested at once which would
cause bleeding issues (ristocetin - sorry spelling - inhibition I believe).

And the acetaminophen comment is totally non sequiatar to what is being
discussed here. Gee, sometimes people lose their renal capacity when put
on tobramycin if the ID doc is not careful. Just as irrelevant.

BK

[Joel]

Either way, more study is needed - and until I know what the mechanism
is that is causing the spike in PlCr levels, I'd staying away from this stuff.

YMMV,


BK

Stay away from CEE products, such as Cell Fuel ,and use SizeOn (no CEE) instead

And they say you are crazy BK ! I always knew Size On was special