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[QUOTE=rickymartinn;658022293]
I don't see why people have trouble getting in protein needs on a non-animal product diet. Even if you eat mainly vegetarian/vegan and you have 75g of whey (or soy/pea) the other 100-150g isn't that hard to get or even that expensive.. lentils and oat bran are about the same price as eggs. The only trouble I ran into was trying to cut while doing this type of diet because of calorie restrictions. If you are bulking raw/vegan/veg is attainable. I am surprised there isn't a raw or vegan BB pro.
[/QUOTE]
Bill Pearl was a lacto-ovo vegetarian when he competed in his later years.
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strong bump on old thread.
btw protein isnt just protein. the AA from animal protein is superior for bodybuilding/athletic training purposes.
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[QUOTE=Delgadido;746109443]strong bump on old thread.
btw protein isnt just protein. the AA from animal protein is superior for bodybuilding/athletic training purposes.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is an old thread. I was looking up information on diets that were not entirely based on animal protein.
As to your latter statement, I have a question that you might be able to help with.
Animal protein surely has the amino acids required to form muscle. Eat muscle to gain muscle. That principle makes enough sense.
However, isn't it possible to get the same AA variation by just eating different types of vegetables with varying AA profiles? The only reason I could see animal Protein still being superior to plant protein in this case is due to straight bio availability.
I want to state that I don't believe that a pure Vegan diet is in any way the best way to go for bodybuilding purposes. However, wouldn't a diet with adequate milk and egg intake and the occasional fish/fowl thrown in there (one meal a day) with a plant base be healthier in the long run than ingesting all the **** that we do now? ( That I do anyway. Lots of red meat in my diet.)
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[QUOTE=WMBB;746113913]Yes, it is an old thread. I was looking up information on diets that were not entirely based on animal protein.
As to your latter statement, I have a question that you might be able to help with.
Animal protein surely has the amino acids required to form muscle. Eat muscle to gain muscle. That principle makes enough sense.
However, isn't it possible to get the same AA variation by just eating different types of vegetables with varying AA profiles? The only reason I could see animal Protein still being superior to plant protein in this case is due to straight bio availability.
I want to state that I don't believe that a pure Vegan diet is in any way the best way to go for bodybuilding purposes. However, wouldn't a diet with adequate milk and egg intake and the occasional fish/fowl thrown in there (one meal a day) with a plant base be healthier in the long run than ingesting all the **** that we do now? ( That I do anyway. Lots of red meat in my diet.)[/QUOTE]
vegans do not eat animal products at all. that includes milk and eggs.
there are some studies regarding leucine from duck feathers if you are into that.
the special AA content of animal products are not found in anything else that are not synthesized(unless some recent studies have been published)
i dont believe they even take in supplementation. at all.
even though i dont believe ppl should be vegetarians unless they have a problem digesting meat. Vegetarians can still survive via whey, egg, and milk.
vegans cant
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[QUOTE=CrossArmant;658045303]I've been a vegan for 3 years, I take in about 1700 calories, 130g protein. Pretty easy when you eat a lot of legumes, tofu, et al.
Lost 90 lbs, feel better, stronger. I've definitely put on muscle. I think it's a smart choice and your digestive system feels better. Carbs take up around 40-50% of my diet, but I've not had any issue with losing weight or putting on muscle. However all of my carbs are unrefined unprocessed oats, whole grains, legumes, et al.
As for the "teeth" argument, no humans aren't evolved to not eat meat, but they are designed to subsist of primarily plant products. Compare the human body to a slew of other carnivores and omnivores. Humans have a long digestive tract, we use primarly our molars to chew with, and honestly, we may have canine teeth, but you do you really think you could kill an animal in the wild with your bare hands and canine teeth? Incisors are prevalent within herbivore populations as well. Not that someone can't live healthy with meat or dairy in their diet, but one can also live especially well on a vegan diet. I know I feel better. And besides the health aspect of it, it's simply an environmentally conscious and animal-friendly way of eating.
And on the complete proteins aspect, if you eat a varied diet there is absolutely zero issue with complete proteins. It's all about amino acids within the proteins of the foods, some legumes lack one or two aminos that your body doesn't make, but another may have them, or some grain may have them or a nut or a vegetable... It's really a non-issue unless your sole food source is peanuts or something.[/QUOTE]
I mean, highly selective, specious, and myopic view of evolution.
Enjoy a vegan lifestlye, it's your choice and if it's a matter of principle, more power to you. Arguing that we aren't evolved to eat meat is asinine.
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[QUOTE=WMBB;746107403]Bill Pearl was a lacto-ovo vegetarian when he competed in his later years.[/QUOTE]milk and eggs=animal proteins.
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Doesn't soy has really bad side effects for males? Why in the hell would a man be a vegan? I'm kidding about the last question but I don't see being a vegan a bigger advantage to a normal balanced diet with fruits, veggies, dairy, and meat. But, if you are a vegan and you enjoy it, then fine but if your doing it because you think there is an advantage then you are making yourself miserable for no reason.
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[QUOTE=WMBB;746113913]Yes, it is an old thread. I was looking up information on diets that were not entirely based on animal protein.
As to your latter statement, I have a question that you might be able to help with.
Animal protein surely has the amino acids required to form muscle. Eat muscle to gain muscle. That principle makes enough sense.
[B]However, isn't it possible to get the same AA variation by just eating different types of vegetables with varying AA profiles? The only reason I could see animal Protein still being superior to plant protein in this case is due to straight bio availability.[/B]
I want to state that I don't believe that a pure Vegan diet is in any way the best way to go for bodybuilding purposes. However, wouldn't a diet with adequate milk and egg intake and the occasional fish/fowl thrown in there (one meal a day) with a plant base be healthier in the long run than ingesting all the **** that we do now? ( That I do anyway. Lots of red meat in my diet.)[/QUOTE]
I believe it is possible but likely very difficult. Animal/Diary proteins are complete proteins. This means they contain all essential Amino acids. The vast majority of vegetable proteins are incomplete but by combining specific proteins with each it other its likely you can come up with something just as effective. That or eat quinoa by the lb its a complete protein. :)
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[QUOTE=Electricheadd;746210853]I believe it is possible but likely very difficult. Animal/Diary proteins are complete proteins. This means they contain all essential Amino acids. The vast majority of vegetable proteins are incomplete but by combining specific proteins with each it other its likely you can come up with something just as effective. That or eat quinoa by the lb its a complete protein. :)[/QUOTE]
actually much of the information regarding complete amino acid profiles is myth. ever seen a gorrilla? guess how they build their massive muscles? vegetation and fruit.
a baby cow might gain 1000lbs in one year, 300 of which is most likely muscle...eating not much more than grass. i don't like to bring up the cow thing because people go on about how they have two stomachs blah blah blah, but their muscle is identical to ours and if complete amino acids were necessary to build that same muscle how on earth do they do it eating grass???
the gorilla example is much better since they so closely resemle us in physiology.
but if you absolutely have to believe in the myth that we need complete aa profiles - sprouted lentils are complete as is quinoa, but I must say I eat very miniscule amounts of either.
I've been vegan for 6 years, and have lost absolutely zero mass or strength, and in that six years I've only eaten a pound or two total of sprouted lentils or quinoa. How on earth is that possible?
Obviously I'm either a magical creature, gorillas are magical creatures, or the complete protein concept is complete bunk.
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[QUOTE=th3pwn3r;582932401]How many vegans have won the Olympia, Mr. Universe or even their IFBB pro card?[/QUOTE]
How many haven't used roids?
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[QUOTE=Romac;748302333]actually much of the information regarding complete amino acid profiles is myth. ever seen a gorrilla? guess how they build their massive muscles? vegetation and fruit.
a baby cow might gain 1000lbs in one year, 300 of which is most likely muscle...eating not much more than grass. i don't like to bring up the cow thing because people go on about how they have two stomachs blah blah blah, but their muscle is identical to ours and if complete amino acids were necessary to build that same muscle how on earth do they do it eating grass???
the gorilla example is much better since they so closely resemle us in physiology.
but if you absolutely have to believe in the myth that we need complete aa profiles - sprouted lentils are complete as is quinoa, but I must say I eat very miniscule amounts of either.
I've been vegan for 6 years, and have lost absolutely zero mass or strength, and in that six years I've only eaten a pound or two total of sprouted lentils or quinoa. How on earth is that possible?
Obviously I'm either a magical creature, gorillas are magical creatures, or the complete protein concept is complete bunk.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/18/article-1304093-0AD51D01000005DC-46_634x503_popup.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=Romac;748302333]actually much of the information regarding complete amino acid profiles is myth. ever seen a gorrilla? guess how they build their massive muscles? vegetation and fruit.
a baby cow might gain 1000lbs in one year, 300 of which is most likely muscle...eating not much more than grass. i don't like to bring up the cow thing because people go on about how they have two stomachs blah blah blah, but their muscle is identical to ours and if complete amino acids were necessary to build that same muscle how on earth do they do it eating grass???
the gorilla example is much better since they so closely resemle us in physiology.
but if you absolutely have to believe in the myth that we need complete aa profiles - sprouted lentils are complete as is quinoa, but I must say I eat very miniscule amounts of either.
I've been vegan for 6 years, and have lost absolutely zero mass or strength, and in that six years I've only eaten a pound or two total of sprouted lentils or quinoa. How on earth is that possible?
Obviously I'm either a magical creature, gorillas are magical creatures, or the complete protein concept is complete bunk.[/QUOTE]
Using a 600lb mountain gorilla or a cow to base your argument around borders on the absurd. They are an entirely different species, and we could always bring it back to the chimpanzee which is much closer to human and an omnivore. (With insane strength i might add) In either case I was not saying you need to eat individual foods with a complete Amino Acid profile. I was more pointing to the fact that you should pair foods together that would have a complete profile when combined.
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[QUOTE=Electricheadd;748312463]Using a 600lb mountain gorilla or a cow to base your argument around borders on the absurd. They are an entirely different species, and we could always bring it back to the chimpanzee which is much closer to human and an omnivore. (With insane strength i might add) In either case I was not saying you need to eat individual foods with a complete Amino Acid profile. I was more pointing to the fact that you should pair foods together that would have a complete profile when combined.[/QUOTE]
it's not really that absurd when you consider that muscle is muscle and requires the same building blocks to manufacture - a gorilla or cow cannot turn carbohydrates into protein any more than we can
but the primary point i was trying to make was that in the 6 years that i have been vegan, i have never ever taken any care whatsoever about food selection with regards to combining protein. Despite my lack of care i've not lost a single pound of muscle or strength, thus i must conclude that it's not as critical as people make it out to be.
of course there are variables i am not considering like luck - perhaps i'm just accidentally combining the perfect foods in the perfect quantities? could be, but it's unlikely.
the only thing i think about when shopping for groceries and planning meals is that i'm buying as many dark green vegetables as possible. i do eat many different beans, but none of them besides sprouted lentils are complete proteins. my family eats about one block of tofu per week, and maybe one block of tempeh, but that's split between four people. I apparently get about 15 to 20 grams of protein per day in my kashi cereal/soymilk, and i have no idea if those are complete proteins or not, but anything beyond that is pure luck. i'm also not trying to gain anymore - i'm 42 in a month and at this point in my life i just want to stay lean and strong and healthy
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^Congrats.
You are just now getting that the marketing of needing a high protein intake for muscle gains was a lie pushed by supplement companies to get you to waste your money on their products
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[QUOTE=th3pwn3r;582932401]How many vegans have won the Olympia, Mr. Universe or even their IFBB pro card?[/QUOTE]
How many vegans juice or even care to enter those things?
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[QUOTE=Los_Diablo;752197823]^Congrats.
You are just now getting that the marketing of needing a high protein intake for muscle gains was a lie pushed by supplement companies to get you to waste your money on their products[/QUOTE]
Indeed. I will say that whey is a convenient way to round out your daily protein intake when there's a deficit - but I laugh at the guys what are taking multiple scoops several times a day.
There are a lot of reasons not to be a strict vegan - but I do disagree with people who insist you absolutely need a lot of animal protein to be healthy. One doesn't need too look very far into the animal kingdom at a plethora of large animals that have no problems maintaining and building mass by eating nothing but plant sources. The animal protein we consume doesn't spontaneously appear out of nowhere. All of the amino acids we consume can ultimately be traced back to plant sources.
Having said that, most large herbivore mammals eat huge quantities of vegetation on a daily basis relative to their body weights. Animal sources are certainly more efficient.
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[QUOTE=msm00b;752273673]Indeed. I will say that whey is a convenient way to round out your daily protein intake when there's a deficit - but I laugh at the guys what are taking multiple scoops several times a day.
There are a lot of reasons not to be a strict vegan - but I do disagree with people who insist you absolutely need a lot of animal protein to be healthy. One doesn't need too look very far into the animal kingdom at a plethora of large animals that have no problems maintaining and building mass by eating nothing but plant sources. The animal protein we consume doesn't spontaneously appear out of nowhere. All of the amino acids we consume can ultimately be traced back to plant sources.
Having said that, most large herbivore mammals eat huge quantities of vegetation on a daily basis relative to their body weights. Animal sources are certainly more efficient.[/QUOTE]
well I know that EAA such as leucine are only derived from animal protein.
I used to take multiple scoops but not because I wanted to simply take in more protein than necessary but meet my daily requirement. i only take in about 100-130g a day unless i eat straight up meat.
Do you have non animal food sources that leucine can be derived from? I tried researching it but could not find anything.
I am a firm believer of a balanced diet. animal and plant.
edit:nvm leucine is found in soy beans and nuts. but its only like 1-4g per 100g
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[QUOTE=Romac;749590523]it's not really that absurd when you consider that muscle is muscle and requires the same building blocks to manufacture - a gorilla or cow cannot turn carbohydrates into protein any more than we can
but the primary point i was trying to make was that in the 6 years that i have been vegan, i have never ever taken any care whatsoever about food selection with regards to combining protein. Despite my lack of care i've not lost a single pound of muscle or strength, thus i must conclude that it's not as critical as people make it out to be.
of course there are variables i am not considering like luck - perhaps i'm just accidentally combining the perfect foods in the perfect quantities? could be, but it's unlikely.
the only thing i think about when shopping for groceries and planning meals is that i'm buying as many dark green vegetables as possible. i do eat many different beans, but none of them besides sprouted lentils are complete proteins. my family eats about one block of tofu per week, and maybe one block of tempeh, but that's split between four people. I apparently get about 15 to 20 grams of protein per day in my kashi cereal/soymilk, and i have no idea if those are complete proteins or not, but anything beyond that is pure luck. i'm also not trying to gain anymore - i'm 42 in a month and at this point in my life i just want to stay lean and strong and healthy[/QUOTE]
I think we will need to agree to disagree on the cow/gorilla debate. Cows have 6 stomachs and eat 30-70lbs of grass a day I suspect comparing what is optimal for a cow and what is optimal for a human is a bit different. Did you know that mountain gorilla's eat enough vegetation that they do not need to drink water? I suspect this would not be optimal in an athletic human, the core differences in our physiology is different enough that I would certainly not model my diet after one.
That said, I don't see anything wrong with a vegan diet for ethical or health purposes. There are many ways to accomplish the same goal. Your personal success is a good example of that. However, had you eaten complete proteins in optimal amounts would it have been different? (We will never know) It probably doesn't matter as long as your happy. The foods you describe Kashi/beans/soy are all incomplete when eaten alone but when you eat them together as part of a balanced diet I suspect you are getting a nearly complete amino acid profile. (I seem to remember beans/soy being a good combo)
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msmoob,
FWIW, I did try going vegan but it didn't workout for me. I have however GREATLY reduced my animal protein intake. Only time I eat animal protein is at supper, and it's usually fish or chicken breast. Sometimes I don't even eat animal protein at all. So yes I don't believe we need nearly as much protein as the supplement companies would have us believe.
People that go vegan and look bad look bad not because of the diet, but because they neglect things like getting in complete proteins and lifting especially.
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Don't get me wrong ... I think going vegetarian is stupid ...
The human body didn't evolve canine teeth for nothing. We're omnivorous creatures - trying to deny that fact is stupid. Every animal on this planet has to consume living (or once living) organic tissue to survive.
That, and meat is awesome.
"If god didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?" -Simpson
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^In that sense I only think it's stupid if the reason a person does it is because of reasons other than not liking the taste of meat or being an animal lover.
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A lot of people on here are confusing what *is* the case in nature what what *needs* to be the case. If you care about sports nutrition then you care about the latter and not the former. Everyone on here, no matter if meat eater or vegan makes changes to the diet we had 1000s of years ago because we see it as "better" for varying reasons depending on our personal goals.
That being said, the whole discussion about vegans not getting a complete amino acid profile is flat incorrect. Eating and combination of beans and rice provides a complete amino acid profile. It's very easy to find combinations as a vegan, *if* you think that they are necessary for enhanced muscle building (I agree that the evidence is lacking for an affirmative answer to this issue).
There really is no hard evidence that vegans put on muscle less efficiently than meat eaters. Most people on here have been suggesting that because there are no vegan champion bodybuilders that this proves that vegans can't be a champion bodybuilder. Clearly this line of reasoning is false. The thing with vegan bodybuilders is that they are usually, if not always, natural body builders because they tend to value this more than others whose only goal is to get big as possible. Throw a vegan on the juice and you'll get the same hugeness, which by the way depends a lot on how your body naturally response to roids rather than anything to do with diet.
The only substantial evidence I've seen about a different in vegan and non-vegan weightlifters was a study showing that vegans pissed out less creatine than meat-eaters. I've seen a lot of blogs use this as evidence that vegans aren't building as much muscle. Funny fact about this study however: the vegans although pissing out less creatine, showed the *same* strength output gains as the meat-eaters. The authors concluded that the method used to measure creative levels may not account for differences in maintaining extramuscular creative levels which is not directly measure (only inferred) by amounts in piss. But anyway, the numbers proved to be the same, so I don't see that this study shows anything of importance.
The last thing to remember is that many of us go vegan mainly for animal rights and ethical issues. So in the end sticking to your guns about myths of meat being better for body building won't matter to many vegans. We make a sacrifice for what we consider to be unethical treatment of animals and corrupt plitics of a food industry that cares about money over killing you with low-quality products and dangerous chemicals. Before you place your faith in your meat you should remember that about corporations. All you need to do is think of cigarettes. These guys (corporations) don't give a **** about you or whether or not you get cancer.
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Strong join date to old-thread-bump ratio.
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why is this being bumped...
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[QUOTE=th3pwn3r;582932401]How many vegans have won the Olympia, Mr. Universe or even their IFBB pro card?[/QUOTE]
This is such a laughable post.
Like Yates and Coleman won Mr Olympia by opening a tin of tuna and not injecting themselves with crap
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[QUOTE=Lezgetitdone;582956861]vegan diet is healthier for your body in the long run, i think the poster could give a fuk less about how many vegans have won body building awards.
in terms of diet though ive done meat and ive done pescaterian (fish and dairy) and I can say I felt better in energy, lost more fat, sustained more muscle mass on the vegeterian diet.
So if your planning on being Mr. Olympia you'll want meat, if not do what you your doing now =)[/QUOTE]
A vegan diet IS NOT HEALTHIER IN THE LONG RUN.
Also, a vegan diet requires Vitamin B12 SUPPLEMENTS, as this can only be sourced from animal produce. This would lead one to believe that we have not evolved to consume that diet, as we have to manufacture vitamins to supplement it.
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Chill out and have a steak.
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[QUOTE=wings_unhinged;582928561] I became a vegan 6 months ago[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i35.tinypic.com/330se1e.gif[/IMg]
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[QUOTE=ShweezyBTFO;836330771][IMG]http://i35.tinypic.com/330se1e.gif[/IMg][/QUOTE]
Lol. Soy has a lot of proteins, though.
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[QUOTE=JontheAtheist;1217026351]Lol. Soy has a lot of proteins, though.[/QUOTE]
Delayed laugh? Strong bump.