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The only thing that needed adding for me was a second Press day. Other than that there's no issues. I don't get where everyone that posts here about GST gets the idea you hit each body part once in 8 days...
For eg:
Lift - back, shoulders, legs, arms, core
Rest
Press 1 - chest, arms, shoulders
Pull - back, arms, shoulders
Rest
Squat - legs, core
Press 2 - chest, arms, shoulders
Rest
Only ever 5 days max between working my back, 4 days max between legs, 3 days max between chest, shoulders are experiencing direct and indirect stimulation every 2 days minimum.
What's the secret?
Compound lifts.
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[QUOTE=lllDBOlll;817550551]The only thing that needed adding for me was a second Press day. Other than that there's no issues. I don't get where everyone that posts here about GST gets the idea you hit each body part once in 8 days...
.[/QUOTE]
From the fact that the original schedule that Ryan suggests calls for 4 lifts with one day in between. Even if you do two in a row and leave a day in between plus the stretch/cardio day
you are only hitting each major muscle every 7 days. I am sure it works in the long run but how is that optimal? Even if you hit it VERY hard and need a week to recover (like many
people do in their splits) all I have heard and read is that such scheme is not ideal. That it is better to train each muscle with less volume and twice a week for maximum stimulation...
especially for beginners and intermediates.
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[QUOTE=lllDBOlll;817550551]For eg:
Lift - back, shoulders, legs, arms, core
Rest
Press 1 - chest, arms, shoulders
Pull - back, arms, shoulders
Rest
Squat - legs, core
Press 2 - chest, arms, shoulders
Rest
.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't look like GST...at least not based on what Ryan describes in the first two pages of this thread. And you are doing shoulders back to back and 4 times a week????
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[QUOTE=B757;817932291]That doesn't look like GST...at least not based on what Ryan describes in the first two pages of this thread. And you are doing shoulders back to back and 4 times a week????[/QUOTE]
Ryan will tell you that GST can be made to suit you. The only time I DIRECTLY work delts is on my Press days where I do BB OHP and DB Lateral Raise on Press 1 and DB OHP and Rear Delt Fly on Press 2.
What I am trying to get across is that on days such as lift, you will be INDIRECTLY working more than one muscle group. If I do a deadlift I will incorporate shoulders to help hold the bar and to help keep my back straight. I will also be training my legs.
If you have free time read through some of my log. You will see that I started off doing 1 on 1 off Press, Pull, Squat, Lift. I then experimented with it and I'm now doing what I mentioned above.
I see GST as a training method more that a "12 week quick fix routine"... And so far it's given me the best results in the gym I have ever had!
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[QUOTE=B757;817544031]Please don't take this message the wrong way. I am in the process of really getting down to business with my
workout. I've been spinning my wheels for way too long. I have looked at GST as a long term program and it
looks fairly solid. My only issue, and one I just haven't been able to shake, is the fact that you are training each
muscle every 8 days. This goes against everything I have read or heard for a beginner or intermediate lifter.
Most people agree on a 3 times a week with lower volume or twice a week with more volume for sustained gains
in both strength and size. At least that is what appears to be optimal.
I know GST is a training method and not so much a workout program like SS or Lyle McDonald's. And with the progression that it offers I am sure you see results, but it doesn't seem optimal.
Am I off here? Those that have seen gains....could you have seen similar gains in other programs in a shorter period of time? Are the gains just strength related?[/QUOTE]
Many Beginner's programs like Starting Strength and AllPro's are designed to add weight to the bar every workout while utilizing the exact same lifts in each training session. In driving this sort of progression, these programs take beginner's from nothing to average and beyond in as short of time as possible. They are like sprints.
GST is not designed in this sprint like fashion. It is designed to be a long course training program that can be tweaked, added to, subtracted from, etc. as a trainee changes goals from season to season or from year to year. In this sense, GST is more like a marathon.
A trainee must decide on their immediate goals. If you want a very quick progression that has you adding weight to the bar every other day in the same lifts......then do a beginner's program like I have mentioned. If you want to think longer term and start a program that can remain your base program for years to come....then get on GST.
BTW.....the idea that you only work muscles once every eight days is a notion that us veteran GSTers laugh at. I had Squat Day on Wednesday night. Today, I have Lift Day scheduled. I need to inform my hamstrings that they were not worked three days ago so that they will freely cooprate today. (please note sarcasm :D)
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[QUOTE=FastCatChamp;817937631]
BTW.....the idea that you only work muscles once every eight days is a notion that us veteran GSTers laugh at. I had Squat Day on Wednesday night. Today, I have Lift Day scheduled. I need to inform my hamstrings that they were not worked three days ago so that they will freely cooprate today. (please note sarcasm :D)[/QUOTE]
This right here
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Ryan....when you get a chance.....what do you think about how I initiate this pair? I'm getting some criticism (which I appreciate) in my journal.
[youtube]3-zGCzORVxE&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
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[QUOTE=lllDBOlll;817550551]The only thing that needed adding for me was a second Press day. Other than that there's no issues. I don't get where everyone that posts here about GST gets the idea you hit each body part once in 8 days...
For eg:
Lift - back, shoulders, legs, arms, core
Rest
Press 1 - chest, arms, shoulders
Pull - back, arms, shoulders
Rest
Squat - legs, core
Press 2 - chest, arms, shoulders
Rest
Only ever 5 days max between working my back, 4 days max between legs, 3 days max between chest, shoulders are experiencing direct and indirect stimulation every 2 days minimum.
What's the secret?
Compound lifts.[/QUOTE]
I understand what you're trying to say, but to suggest that you work delts, esp front or side delts, on lift day ( or pull day really) is a stretch. You say you work "arms" on press and pull days. No. Theres no excerise that works "arms". Obvioulsy bis and tris are worked with opposite movements. Same with lift day working "legs", no- doesnt touch the quads.
You added a press day to your program so obviouly you had the same concern to some extent. I like a lot of Ryans principles and agree with almost all of the exercised GST uses, but I think it's fair to question if the frequency of the workouts is "optimum".
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Its been readily admitted that many trainees need extra chest work in this program. thats why DBO has such an extra day.
What most GSTers simply do is drop a second bench movement (CGBP) into the last workout of their cycle.
In GST, bench is the only movement that seems to encounter this problem. Obviously, it only matters for those trainnes that are intermediate/advanced in their training and doesnt speak to gaining chest size....but rather only to progressing your bench press weights.
How is it a stretch to say you work delts on lift day? On a lift day a few weeks ago I went 315x8,8,13 on deadlifts. Watch my delts get throttled on the deadlifts I posted up above. It not "direct" work like front raises, but c'mon.
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When you are using so many compound movements there's going to be overlap on muscles worked.
If the frequency concerns you then add a couple of core lifts or supps into your other days and you'll be good to go.
Ryan has said many times you can increase frequency if that works better for you to progress.
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[QUOTE=tigertailbell;818263891]I understand what you're trying to say, but to suggest that you work delts, esp front or side delts, on lift day ( or pull day really) is a stretch. [b]If you are deading or shrugging 3-4pps+ and can still tell me you're just having a stretch then, I bow down.[/b]
You say you work "arms" on press and pull days. No. Theres no excerise that works "arms". Obvioulsy bis and tris are worked with opposite movements. [b]If you think this then you need to read some stickies or a few books. If you prefer me to have written bi's or tri's instead of arms then fair enough... I'm sure you can work out which day works which... Then again if not, Press hits tri's most, Pull hits Bi's most.[/b]
Same with lift day working "legs", no- doesnt touch the quads. [b]Try Sumo Deadlifts and tell me there is no glute / quad involvement... If not work on your MMC[/b]
You added a press day to your program so obviouly you had the same concern to some extent. I like a lot of Ryans principles and agree with almost all of the exercised GST uses, but I think it's fair to question if the frequency of the workouts is "optimum".[b]I added a Press day as it was the ONLY area that I felt was lacking in stimulation frequency. Again, I squatted on Thursday and I'm hoping to do my Lift day today... My legs are still aching but it doesn't matter because I don't need them, I'll just float there while I use my erector spinae for everything... Cough... [/b]
[/QUOTE]
To add to this, I'll just say there are enough logs for people to mimic or copy a full macro of GST or pseudo GST. Instead of debating on what you THINK will happen, why not spend a month doing it and SEE what happens. Learn, experience. The strongest part of your body is your brain... You will only train that through time and experience.
So what have you got to lose?
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[QUOTE=lllDBOlll;818357691]To add to this, I'll just say there are enough logs for people to mimic or copy a full macro of GST or pseudo GST. Instead of debating on what you THINK will happen, why not spend a month doing it and SEE what happens. Learn, experience. The strongest part of your body is your brain... You will only train that through time and experience.
So what have you got to lose?[/QUOTE]
I agree. Some people just think critically and naturally question things instead of just going with the sentiment.
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If my wife and I didn't have the weekend to ourselves, I'd be responding to these posts. You guys that know me know I'll be in here soon though.
In the meantime, those of you who are getting things done with GST, keep it up!
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[QUOTE=2020Wellness;816531711]See Bold and thanks again. Also, make sure you read up on Micro 0, which is technically how you start the program most efficiently.
Ryan[/QUOTE]
Thanks man, appreciate the response. So unilateral core movement for legs, I am thinking that means either lunges or split squats? Would Bulgarian split squats work? I have used them in the past and found them to be pretty effective. Would the DB squats be ok moved as a supplement exercise? Or maybe hack squats which I have read are effective for hitting quads.
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question: can box squats be done high bar? I just finished a macro doing low bar (as every site says a box squat should be done) and can't stand the low bar positioning :(
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[QUOTE=miabullitt;818599931]question: can box squats be done high bar? I just finished a macro doing low bar (as every site says a box squat should be done) and can't stand the low bar positioning :([/QUOTE]
Yes, they can definitely be done high bar. You'll likely move more weight with a low bar position, but you'll also get more quad recruitment from a high bar position. I'm currently in love with low bar box squats :)
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Ya know its funny.. the one thing I was worried about when starting my GST program Ryan put together was that there wasn't enough Bi and Tri work. I mean I knew it was there with the movements I was doing but I was just so used to ALOT of direct arm work. One of my goals always was to get 20 inch arms. Even when I weighed 305 I still couldnt do reach it.
Today I got a nice little 40th bday present. My left arm measured 20 and 1/8 inches and my right 20 even today after my back workout ! and I currently weigh 261. thanks GST couldn't of done it without you !
Here is a pic today after measuring, I know Ima ugly motha but my arms are finally over 20 !! so whateva lol
[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/2nrjzuw.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=jayluk4600;818800751]Ya know its funny.. the one thing I was worried about when starting my GST program Ryan put together was that there wasn't enough Bi and Tri work. I mean I knew it was there with the movements I was doing but I was just so used to ALOT of direct arm work. One of my goals always was to get 20 inch arms. Even when I weighed 305 I still couldnt do reach it.
Today I got a nice little 40th bday present. My left arm measured 20 and 1/8 inches and my right 20 even today after my back workout ! and I currently weigh 261. thanks GST couldn't of done it without you !
Here is a pic today after measuring, I know Ima ugly motha but my arms are finally over 20 !! so whateva lol
[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/2nrjzuw.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Yay!! You are one awesome motha!! lol ;) Congrats!! and Happy 40th!! Wow...and what another great testimonial for Ryan!! Keep up the good work!! :)
OHHH.....and your arms are bigger than my quads!!!! :) Hows that make you feel? lol
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[QUOTE=jayluk4600;818800751]Ya know its funny.. the one thing I was worried about when starting my GST program Ryan put together was that there wasn't enough Bi and Tri work. I mean I knew it was there with the movements I was doing but I was just so used to ALOT of direct arm work. One of my goals always was to get 20 inch arms. Even when I weighed 305 I still couldnt do reach it.
Today I got a nice little 40th bday present. My left arm measured 20 and 1/8 inches and my right 20 even today after my back workout ! and I currently weigh 261. thanks GST couldn't of done it without you !
Here is a pic today after measuring, I know Ima ugly motha but my arms are finally over 20 !! so whateva lol
[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/2nrjzuw.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Happy Bday and congrats on the the 20" arms! thats some great inspiration for the rest of us.
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Awesome work up in Herrr!
Still crackin away on GST, Almost 1 month into my bulk!!
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Quick question 2020.
I like your template of working out 3 days/week Monday Wednesday Friday and rest on the weekend. However there are 4 workouts in your program. So basically ill only be able to do 3 of the 4 workouts per week. Dont you think this may not be enough work? It would be nice to hit all the core lifts every week. Is there a way to set this up on a 3 day work schedule that I may have missed?
Thanks
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[QUOTE=jayluk4600;818800751]Ya know its funny.. the one thing I was worried about when starting my GST program Ryan put together was that there wasn't enough Bi and Tri work. I mean I knew it was there with the movements I was doing but I was just so used to ALOT of direct arm work. One of my goals always was to get 20 inch arms. Even when I weighed 305 I still couldnt do reach it.
Today I got a nice little 40th bday present. My left arm measured 20 and 1/8 inches and my right 20 even today after my back workout ! and I currently weigh 261. thanks GST couldn't of done it without you !
Here is a pic today after measuring, I know Ima ugly motha but my arms are finally over 20 !! so whateva lol
[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/2nrjzuw.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Congrats on the 20inch arms. However, and playing the devil's advocate, I bet you didn't start with 15" arms and through GST developed them to 20". If you did please correct me and I will be VERY impressed. See, that is my point. I think GST is great for people that already have a good muscle base or that are happy with the way they
look (big, thin, etc...) and are looking for a good program or training method to maintain what they have or continue to makes modest gains throught a longer period of time. But I question if this is a good program (at least
the schedule) for somebody like me who is still intereted in making significant gains at a reasonable pace. Maybe
I can try an upper/lower, et.... and when I have reached a reasonable level of muscle the I can swith to a program like GST.
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[QUOTE=B757;819097591]Congrats on the 20inch arms. However, and playing the devil's advocate, I bet you didn't start with 15" arms and through GST developed them to 20". If you did please correct me and I will be VERY impressed.
[B]Jay will chime in here as well, I know it, and you will be corrected. He has been training for a long time, yes. However, he has talked about how GST opened his eyes to a new level of training, even though he'd been training for years prior! He just also mentioned that even at 305lbs, his arms were not 20 inches before GST. Now he has been on GST for under a year, weighs 45lbs less, and has obtained/surpassed his goal of 20 inch arms. In other words, the type of person that has the most difficulty seeing gains (heavily experienced) has taken his body to new levels in a matter of months through GST! Getting an experienced individual to grow, especially someone as experienced as Jay is the hardest thing to do, and Jay and I have done that by working together on his GST program. So, you should be VERY impressed.[/B]
See, that is my point. I think GST is great for people that already have a good muscle base or that are happy with the way they
look (big, thin, etc...) and are looking for a good program or training method to maintain what they have or continue to makes modest gains throught a longer period of time.
[B]Your point is incorrect. Here is another example, I'm currently training a new face to face client who is trying out for the WWE. He is 21, has been messing around with higher frequency routines for a couple of years and when I met him he was 185lbs. I met him about two months ago when we had our initial consult. He was training higher frequency from another hard copy book. I immediately put him on GST, dropped his gym hours and body part frequency, and he is blowing up like a balloon. He is currently 12lbs heavier, his strength levels are shooting up with each workout (right on schedule), and he is noticeably carrying more size (I see it, he sees it, and everyone else that knows him sees it.) He is not heavily experienced, but he has been training high frequency until I met him. Guess what? He's VERY happy with his routine change and tells me all the time that he feels much better about the direction I'm taking him.
Do me a favor and visit [url]www.growthstimulustraining.com/testimonial[/url]. Take a few minutes and read over some of the stories. These are not all beginners and are not all veterans. GST is working every day for beginners, veterans, and importantly everyone in between.[/B]
But I question if this is a good program (at least the schedule) for somebody like me who is still intereted in making significant gains at a reasonable pace.
[B]Significant gains at a reasonable pace? The program adjusts based on your pace, so it WILL NOT hold you back with specific progression guidelines. If you perform well with a lift, you'll be pushed harder during the next macrocycle because you performed well. GST is a self adjusting program that reads and responds accordingly.
I think the problem that you're having is that you're looking at GST based on what you're reading in the initial pages of this thread. Remember, you're not reading the complete program, you're reading the BARE BONED BASICS of GST. The complete program is for those who are willing to support my work that I put into GST through an eBook purchase. You're seeing a program that only encompasses a portion of GST, and you're failing to see GST for the things it really is; a training style, a training approach, a variable plan of action that has built in areas of adjustment for personalization.
The main point is that you're basing your judgement on an incomplete understanding of the program that leads you to believe it is something that it isn't. This is not a program that has a beginning and an end like most typical 8 week, 12 week, etc..... type of programs. This is a style of training built around concepts that flat out work. The core concepts are kept in place no matter who uses the program, but then the program becomes personalized around the user. You have to experience the style to appreciate it, so I understand why you feel the way you do. Until you give it a proper try, you won't know what it's really all about.[/B]
Maybe I can try an upper/lower, et.... and when I have reached a reasonable level of muscle the I can swith to a program like GST.
[B]That choice is up to you. I've never once done that type of split, not even as a beginner. My strength was always fine, I have been injury free, I've added 50-60lbs of LEAN MASS to my frame, and I'm typically one of the bigger guys in the gym. It is what it is, that's just me being honest.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
See bold.
[B]My opinion is that until you try the complete experience, questioning the validity of a program that proves itself consistently as time passes is questionable in itself......especially as a beginner. Again, just being honest. I know that sounds kind of 'dickish,' but there's nothing I can do about it. Either you'll take offense and be upset, or you'll understand where I'm coming from and continue the discussion.
Thanks for posting and giving me the opportunity to talk about GST today,
Ryan[/B]
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Today's meal number 2. Spicin it up guys!
[youtube]SH9mdYDVh1I[/youtube]
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[QUOTE=2020Wellness;819131271]See bold.
Thanks for posting and giving me the opportunity to talk about GST today,
Ryan[/B][/QUOTE]
Ryan,
I take no offense in your message and I understand the points you are making. I was really not trying to offend you and I hope you didn't take it that way. I know your program works because it is well thought out, has good progression, and there are many people who are using it successfully. I can see that just by reading this thread and even with the limitations of not having seen your full program.
My initial (and only) question/concern had to do with frequency...or how often you hit each muscle group hard. All I have read in the past, including at BB.com, points to the fact that a non-advance lifter would benefit more from a more frequent schedule and talks about how a "once a week" muscle group is only good for advance lifters. The idea is that a beginner or intermediate doesn't have the capacity and strength to destroy a muscle enough to necessitate one full week of recovery. Having said that, I see you have some good testimonials that point the opposite way. Do you think this has to do with the type of splits GST offers? Or the fact that you are doing a lift and squat routine separately and maybe that is increasing the growth hormones in your body?
Anyway, that was my only question. I was not trying to attack your program in any way. I am certainly not qualified to do that.
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if your worried about frequency and dont think youll be doing enough, then get a basic GST routine writen up for yourself and give it a go for a month or two, the fact you push to failure each time you go should be enough to wear you out for a few days at least to begin with, and the difference in reps each week will mean you muscles dont really have time to adapt, so the time between particular sessions gives a good length to recover. and if your nutrition is in check you will see gains fairly quickly.
remember this is designed to be the only program youll need, so with that it should prove that you will constantly be growing, getting stronger, getting leaner etc... or what ever it is you use GST for, you may not see drastic gains in the way you look straight away, but this program should make it easier to maintain your physique once you reach your goals.
i havent been able to hit GST properly due to a shoulder injury, but i have applied to basic principals to my squat sessions (only sessions i can do with out straining my shoulder too much) and in a month i already see my legs getting bigger and glutes get a good pump, and my mid section is filling out and core more stable. also my strength levels have increased a good whack aswell!
im hardly an advanced lifter, only being training properly for a year so could still be seen as a beginner if you like and i deffinatly feel this program works. just look at the testimonials for real proof.
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[QUOTE=B757;819208991]Ryan,
I take no offense in your message and I understand the points you are making. I was really not trying to offend you and I hope you didn't take it that way. I know your program works because it is well thought out, has good progression, and there are many people who are using it successfully. I can see that just by reading this thread and even with the limitations of not having seen your full program.
My initial (and only) question/concern had to do with frequency...or how often you hit each muscle group hard. All I have read in the past, including at BB.com, points to the fact that a non-advance lifter would benefit more from a more frequent schedule and talks about how a "once a week" muscle group is only good for advance lifters. The idea is that a beginner or intermediate doesn't have the capacity and strength to destroy a muscle enough to necessitate one full week of recovery. Having said that, I see you have some good testimonials that point the opposite way. Do you think this has to do with the type of splits GST offers? Or the fact that you are doing a lift and squat routine separately and maybe that is increasing the growth hormones in your body?
Anyway, that was my only question. I was not trying to attack your program in any way. I am certainly not qualified to do that.[/QUOTE]
Basically....beginner, intermediate or advanced.. if you need to hit each body part multiple times per week to get anything out of it you are not working efficiently (meaning spending too much time on multiple isolations) or hard enough (meaning not focusing with a good mind/muscle connection on more effective compounds) and lifting heavy enough in a right rep/set scheme. You should NEED a few days to recover.....and muscles grow when they are recovering/resting.
It would only benefit you to give GST a try for 3 Macros (months) and then decide if it works for you. GST & Ryan himself will work closely with you....for long term, individualized progress instead of leaving you hanging like these 12 week fad programs.
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[QUOTE=B757;819208991]Ryan,
I take no offense in your message and I understand the points you are making. I was really not trying to offend you and I hope you didn't take it that way. I know your program works because it is well thought out, has good progression, and there are many people who are using it successfully. I can see that just by reading this thread and even with the limitations of not having seen your full program.
My initial (and only) question/concern had to do with frequency...or how often you hit each muscle group hard. All I have read in the past, including at BB.com, points to the fact that a non-advance lifter would benefit more from a more frequent schedule and talks about how a "once a week" muscle group is only good for advance lifters. The idea is that a beginner or intermediate doesn't have the capacity and strength to destroy a muscle enough to necessitate one full week of recovery. Having said that, I see you have some good testimonials that point the opposite way. Do you think this has to do with the type of splits GST offers? Or the fact that you are doing a lift and squat routine separately and maybe that is increasing the growth hormones in your body?
[B]I believe it is the program over the hormonal influence of large compound movements.[/B]
Anyway, that was my only question. I was not trying to attack your program in any way. I am certainly not qualified to do that.
[B]I don't believe you were, and never thought you were either. That is why I didn't get offended, but simply explained the program and reasoning to you in a nice way :) Trust me, it was nice to talk about the program to you.[/B][/QUOTE]
[B]See Bold, and you should seriously consider working with me on a plan, as the posters below recommend![/B]
[QUOTE=wolfie3291;819230161]if your worried about frequency and dont think youll be doing enough, then get a basic GST routine writen up for yourself and give it a go for a month or two, the fact you push to failure each time you go should be enough to wear you out for a few days at least to begin with, and the difference in reps each week will mean you muscles dont really have time to adapt, so the time between particular sessions gives a good length to recover. and if your nutrition is in check you will see gains fairly quickly.
remember this is designed to be the only program youll need, so with that it should prove that you will constantly be growing, getting stronger, getting leaner etc... or what ever it is you use GST for, you may not see drastic gains in the way you look straight away, but this program should make it easier to maintain your physique once you reach your goals.
i havent been able to hit GST properly due to a shoulder injury, but i have applied to basic principals to my squat sessions (only sessions i can do with out straining my shoulder too much) and in a month i already see my legs getting bigger and glutes get a good pump, and my mid section is filling out and core more stable. also my strength levels have increased a good whack aswell!
im hardly an advanced lifter, only being training properly for a year so could still be seen as a beginner if you like and i deffinatly feel this program works. just look at the testimonials for real proof.[/QUOTE]
Awesome about those legs man, hopefully the above poster reads your post too!
[QUOTE=stackums;819254101]Basically....beginner, intermediate or advanced.. if you need to hit each body part multiple times per week to get anything out of it you are not working efficiently (meaning spending too much time on multiple isolations) or hard enough (meaning not focusing with a good mind/muscle connection on more effective compounds) and lifting heavy enough in a right rep/set scheme. You should NEED a few days to recover.....and muscles grow when they are recovering/resting.
It would only benefit you to give GST a try for 3 Macros (months) and then decide if it works for you. GST & Ryan himself will work closely with you....for long term, individualized progress instead of leaving you hanging like these 12 week fad programs.[/QUOTE]
That's my goal, to make GST an involved experience. Those who have supported the program and my work know what I'm talking about :)