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Vegan diet vs. Non-vegan
Everyone on BB.com says high amounts of protein and low amounts of carbs are the way to go.
I became a vegan 6 months ago, and all of the information on vegan websites talked about how people get TOO MUCH protein. I don't think this is based on a 1g/1lb ratio that lifters go by, which is more than the average person gets.
Since going vegan, I've lost about 50 lbs.. I consume mostly carbs, but I get a decent amount of proteins from soy products, beans, and nuts. I haven't lost strength either (although I am new to lifting weights and my strength is low compared to seasoned vets).
How do vegans shed so much fat if they consume mostly carbs?
I'm just confused because both sides give way different information.
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Protein is mainly used to keep from burning off muscle... sure the low protein way "works" but how much of it is fat, and how much of it is muscle. Your system needs protein to survive, when your protein intake is low, the next best place for your body to get it from is your muscles(aka muscle breakdown). At the end of the day there is no magic number on how much protein you should take, but in my opinion and based on research... generally the more, the better.
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[QUOTE=wings_unhinged;582928561]Everyone on BB.com says high amounts of protein and low amounts of carbs are the way to go.
I became a vegan 6 months ago, and all of the information on vegan websites talked about how people get TOO MUCH protein. I don't think this is based on a 1g/1lb ratio that lifters go by, which is more than the average person gets.
Since going vegan, I've lost about 50 lbs.. I consume mostly carbs, but I get a decent amount of proteins from soy products, beans, and nuts. I haven't lost strength either (although I am new to lifting weights and my strength is low compared to seasoned vets).
How do vegans shed so much fat if they consume mostly carbs?
I'm just confused because both sides give way different information.[/QUOTE]
How many vegans have won the Olympia, Mr. Universe or even their IFBB pro card?
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[QUOTE=wings_unhinged;582928561]Everyone on BB.com says high amounts of protein and low amounts of carbs are the way to go.
I became a vegan 6 months ago, and all of the information on vegan websites talked about how people get TOO MUCH protein. I don't think this is based on a 1g/1lb ratio that lifters go by, which is more than the average person gets.
Since going vegan, I've lost about 50 lbs.. I consume mostly carbs, but I get a decent amount of proteins from soy products, beans, and nuts. I haven't lost strength either (although I am new to lifting weights and my strength is low compared to seasoned vets).
[B]
How do vegans shed so much fat if they consume mostly carbs?[/B]
I'm just confused because both sides give way different information.[/QUOTE]
like anyone else, maintain a calorie deficit
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Vegans still have a lot of options regarding protein though... I mean on tuesday I actually decided to try some tofu/veggie strings(mainly because of sick protein levels aha). One serving of tofu was 100 calories and 16g of protein. Also the veggie string were 260 calories for 34g of protein.
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[QUOTE=mattbru;582934621]Vegans still have a lot of options regarding protein though... I mean on tuesday I actually decided to try some tofu/veggie strings(mainly because of sick protein levels aha). One serving of tofu was 100 calories and 16g of protein. Also the veggie string were 260 calories for 34g of protein.[/QUOTE]
Right but are they complete proteins?
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[QUOTE=th3pwn3r;582935181]Right but are they complete proteins?[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily so it is probably a super difficult task, but was this this guy back in the day
[url]http://www.bodybuilders.com/albert.htm[/url].
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[QUOTE=mattbru;582939711]Not necessarily so it is probably a super difficult task, but was this this guy back in the day
[url]http://www.bodybuilders.com/albert.htm[/url].[/QUOTE]
Did you google that? Thanks by the way haha.
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[QUOTE=th3pwn3r;582941681]Did you google that? Thanks by the way haha.[/QUOTE]
Aha I honestly did out of curiosity, I personally didn't think there would be one myself.
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[QUOTE=mattbru;582943561]Aha I honestly did out of curiosity, I personally didn't think there would be one myself.[/QUOTE]
I figured google would come up with something. For years I've read M&F, Muscle Mag and Flex and never read about a vegan or vegetarian pro, I never really looked into it either.
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[QUOTE=th3pwn3r;582944901]I figured google would come up with something. For years I've read M&F, Muscle Mag and Flex and never read about a vegan or vegetarian pro, I never really looked into it either.[/QUOTE]
vegan diet is healthier for your body in the long run, i think the poster could give a fuk less about how many vegans have won body building awards.
in terms of diet though ive done meat and ive done pescaterian (fish and dairy) and I can say I felt better in energy, lost more fat, sustained more muscle mass on the vegeterian diet.
So if your planning on being Mr. Olympia you'll want meat, if not do what you your doing now =)
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[QUOTE=Lezgetitdone;582956861]vegan diet is healthier for your body in the long run.[/QUOTE]
No it isn't. Humans evolved to be omnivores. Our bodies are custom built for a diet of both meat and plant.
The vegan diet may be healthier than the average american diet, but it's a far cry from being as healthy as a normal balanced diet inclusive of both animals/plants. Veganism is a choice. Some people do it for "honorable" reasons. Most are just douchebags trying to be trendy or making ill-informed decisions based on what they read on the intrawebs.
But yes, vegans lose weight by maintaining a calorie deficit. You'll have a hard time building a lot of muscle mass on a diet that restricts all animal based proteins.
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[QUOTE=Lezgetitdone;582956861]vegan diet is healthier for your body in the long run, i think the poster could give a fuk less about how many vegans have won body building awards.
in terms of diet though ive done meat and ive done pescaterian (fish and dairy) and I can say I felt better in energy, lost more fat, sustained more muscle mass on the vegeterian diet.
So if your planning on being Mr. Olympia you'll want meat, if not do what you your doing now =)[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the laugh.
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[QUOTE=msm00b;582962221]No it isn't. Humans evolved to be omnivores. Our bodies are custom built for a diet of both meat and plant.
The vegan diet may be healthier than the average american diet, but it's a far cry from being as healthy as a normal balanced diet inclusive of both animals/plants. Veganism is a choice. Some people do it for "honorable" reasons. Most are just douchebags trying to be trendy or making ill-informed decisions based on what they read on the intrawebs.
But yes, vegans lose weight by maintaining a calorie deficit. You'll have a hard time building a lot of muscle mass on a diet that restricts all animal based proteins.[/QUOTE]
You sure about that? Ive read articles that we originally had plant based diets and thats how our digestive system thrived on. Ive also read diets on people who eat RAW diets have much lesser chance of developing illnesses and diseases. After doing this diet myself I noticed the difference.
I gained a large amount of muscle mass, but this can be contributed towards not lifting for a full year before starting up again (noobie gains). I also ate fish and dairy to help aid in protein. Vegan is different though and that means plants only so who knows.
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[QUOTE=Lezgetitdone;582965671]You sure about that? Ive read articles that we originally had plant based diets and thats how our digestive system thrived on.[/QUOTE]
Look at our teeth: We have incisors and canines. Primitive man had incisors and canines. Incisors and Canines = meat eating evolution -> omnivores.
[QUOTE]Ive also read diets on people who eat RAW diets have much lesser chance of developing illnesses and diseases. After doing this diet myself I noticed the difference.[/QUOTE]
There are benefits to eating raw veggies just like there are benefits to eating raw meat (if you're willing to risk the parasites/bacteria). Restrictive diets (especially ultra restrictive ones like vegan diets) make establishing a proper balance difficult. If you're not careful and don't take a vitamin, you also risk deficiencies (cobalamin <B12> being the most famous deficiency associated with veganism).
[QUOTE]I also ate fish and dairy to help aid in protein. Vegan is different though and that means plants only so who knows.[/QUOTE]
If you ate fish that's not really even vegetarian (though some vegetarians will try to tell you it is). Fish and dairy are incredibly healthy. What I can't for the life of me understand is why some people find it morally repulsive to eat cow/chicken/deer/pig but think it's ok to eat fish. Or why people think it's repulsive to eat animals in the first place. Unless you're a plant photosynthesizing your own energy from the sun, everything on this planet survives by eating something else that's alive. Animals eat animals, and we're animals too ... it's part of the natural order of things. If you're opposed to the way we raise animals for slaughter, I can respect that. There are meat and animal products available that aren't mass farmed though.
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What about eggs? they are full of complete protein and nutrients.
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[QUOTE=Lezgetitdone;582956861]vegan diet is healthier for your body in the long run, i think the poster could give a fuk less about how many vegans have won body building awards.
in terms of diet though ive done meat and ive done pescaterian (fish and dairy) and I can say I felt better in energy, lost more fat, sustained more muscle mass on the vegeterian diet.
So if your planning on being Mr. Olympia you'll want meat, if not do what you your doing now =)[/QUOTE]
I did a raw vegan diet for a couple of months just to clear out the system (it felt absolutely incredible). but now I eat tons of chicken and tuna, but oh well lol I've been on this site for a long time, and I find it funny how many things people take as fact because it gets repeated over and over again, but I also see that on other boards no matter the subject lol EDIT (oh I wasnt disagreeing with you I was just saying in general)
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I find it somewhat interesting that most of the Pro-Vegetarian/Vegan/Pescetarian hype comes from places that endorse or push on that way of life. The answer is in our teeth. I've even heard that our teeth are the way they are because of choice, when in fact there is documented and researched proof that pre-civilized man also had incisors.
Also, I have met a few vegetarians that try to convince others that eating fish is fine, that it doesn't change that they are vegetarians. Bleh! People farm fish just like they do beef and chicken!
I've tried the vegan, vegetarian and pescetarian route myself, mostly because an ex went through the gamut and finally ended up eating meat again. My body feels best in pescetarian mode, but with a bit of red meat and poultry every once in a while. Out of simplicity, I buy bulk chicken and beef.
PS, medium-well T-bone steak, sweat potato and greenbeans!!! NOM NOM NOM!
-Medic
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[QUOTE=medicgarza;583046581]I've tried the vegan, vegetarian and pescetarian route myself, mostly because an ex went through the gamut and finally ended up eating meat again. [/QUOTE]
Bro, I went through the same thing with an ex-girlfriend. I started dating her, and she was all about vegan diet. I gave it a shot because I wanted to have an open mind*
*get laid
But I wont ever do that again. Tofu hamburgers, and vegetarian "meat". Gross.
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Yeah I agree with you medic.
Thats kinda want I meant, I have never been vegan, always pescavegeterian. That's what I meant when I said I felt best energy wise/muscle strength wise. I really think it is.
Isn't fish a better meat overall compared to those two?
High protein to calorie ratio, omega 3, etc
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[QUOTE=Lezgetitdone;583061431]Isn't fish a better meat overall compared to those two?
High protein to calorie ratio, omega 3, etc[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that and it probably has the least amount of fat in it. But now you have to worry about mercury levels in fish.
If you Google around you can find a chart that has the fish with the highest amount of mercury to the fish with the lowest.
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I tried all raw last year for two months. The only problem was retaining muscle -sure, the weight fell off of me, but I looked like a long distance runner, pretty pathetic. That said, if I tried it again I'd be researching hemp proteins, but I doubt I'd do it again. I find mixing greens and lean meats to be much more satisfying all the way around.
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[QUOTE=medicgarza;583046581]I find it somewhat interesting that most of the Pro-Vegetarian/Vegan/Pescetarian hype comes from places that endorse or push on that way of life. The answer is in our teeth. I've even heard that our teeth are the way they are because of choice, when in fact there is documented and researched proof that pre-civilized man also had incisors.
Also, I have met a few vegetarians that try to convince others that eating fish is fine, that it doesn't change that they are vegetarians. Bleh! People farm fish just like they do beef and chicken!
I've tried the vegan, vegetarian and pescetarian route myself, mostly because an ex went through the gamut and finally ended up eating meat again. My body feels best in pescetarian mode, but with a bit of red meat and poultry every once in a while. Out of simplicity, I buy bulk chicken and beef.
PS, medium-well T-bone steak, sweat potato and greenbeans!!! NOM NOM NOM!
-Medic[/QUOTE]
This is basically what I do. Mostly fish with meat on occassion. Call it flexible pescitarianism
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I went vegan about 5.5 years ago. I have not done any serious lifting since then, but if you're interested there are websites devoted to the subject.
this link is to the vegan bodybuilding profiles page:
[url]http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bios[/url]
none of them are huge, but i doubt any of them are juiced up either. One guy on that page is a strongman competitor, rob bigwood is a pretty big boy and makes a living as an arm wrestler, mike mahler is that kettle-bell strength trainer dude.
and there are a handful of bodybuiders on an even more restrictive diet than vegans - raw vegan bodybuiders - there's a youtube vid of a raw vegan taxi driver bodybuilder
so obviously it can be done. it's mostly a matter of how big do you want to get? I'd love to see a vegan bodybuilder whose trained for ten years AND cycled roids the whole while, but i'd think most vegans are more interested in health than freakish size.
My strategy for proper vegan nutrition is to eat whatever the hell i feel like with a strong preference for dark green vegetables minimally cooked. Eating like that, I believe that I'll get all the protein I need so long as I'm intaking ample calories. Also that old fashioned idea about 'complete' protein has been shown to be bunk. no i don't have the link to the study but it's obvious when you think about how vegans eat. I never pile tofu on beans on rice with nuts because i'm worried about getting complete protein. A typical meal for me will be maybe a 1.5 cups of brown rice, 1.5 cups of broccolli, and maybe 2.5ish cups of salad - spinach, romaine, endive - whatever's laying around. If complete protein was required i'd have wasted away by now, but eating like that for 5.5 years now, i don't believe i've lost a single pound of lbm.
also the op mentioned carbs - nearly everything a vegan eats is carbs, but complex > simple...dark greens > beans and rice
i'm just getting back into lifting and suspect that the only difference i'll notice is that it's easier to maintain a low bodyfat percentage while eating vegan.
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had to laugh at the fact that there is no vegan Olympia... of course there isn't vegans are vegans for a reason not because they use roids.
i've been a vegetarian for 5 years and it def. has not effected any muscle gains or made me look tiny. i was a vegan for a while but to be a healthy vegan takes time and preparation as the food and nutrient choices need to be thought out.
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I went vegan for several months last year and was a vegetarian for a total of almost four years. Getting sufficient protein as a vegetarian versus as a vegan are two COMPLETELY different challenges. I found great results using a combination of hemp protein powder, pea protein powder, and brown rice protein powder, and never used soy. Blended with almond milk and frozen fruit they were tasty, but they were a little rough by themselves (as are most vegan-friendly supplements). I don't think I can link to the website from Bodybuilding.com, but True Protein sells those proteins in bulk... they're A LOT cheaper there than buying them off the shelf of a natural foods store.
I'm back to eating meat now, but when I eventually go vegan again, those protein powders will be a staple of my diet once again.
Good luck.
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Veganism makes paleo diet look smart by comparison.
/Thread
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Be funny if OP proved people in this thread wrong, you never know what can be achieved until you try it. If you chose to be vegan, okay, get protein from plants, keep lifting, never know what you could achieve.
"How many vegans have won the Olympia, Mr. Universe or even their IFBB pro card?"
How many do you know that have attempted it, anything is possible with enough will power. and unless you plan on roiding up to that of a freak then you are not going to win either.
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I was surprised when I started looking into raw food diets about how much broscience is going on. Half the websites have no studies linked to any of the reasons why raw food is better. I tried doing it for a week to help with a detox but it's hard on a college budget and food prepping takes time. I think (unless you have beliefs) a mixed diet is probably best. I don't know how much merit there is to an alkali diet but that's one of the reasons people 'feel' better when they eat vegetarian/vegan/raw. Sprouting foods is interesting but at the same time it's kinda dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. I sprouted quinoa seeds last week and put them in a smoothie and I had awful gastrointestinal problems for like 24 hours.
I don't see why people have trouble getting in protein needs on a non-animal product diet. Even if you eat mainly vegetarian/vegan and you have 75g of whey (or soy/pea) the other 100-150g isn't that hard to get or even that expensive.. lentils and oat bran are about the same price as eggs. The only trouble I ran into was trying to cut while doing this type of diet because of calorie restrictions. If you are bulking raw/vegan/veg is attainable. I am surprised there isn't a raw or vegan BB pro.
1 cup oat bran 230 calories, 16g protein
1/2 steamed cup lentils 120 calories 9g protein
1/4 cup quinoa 170cal 5g protein
4 tbsp peanut butter 380cal 16g protein
2 slices of trader joe's sprouted rye bread 120cals 10g protein
1/2 cup almonds 360cal 12g protein
1-2cups Various greens and veggies = 100cals 6g protein (spinach, peas, kale, broccoli, green beans)
1/2 cup chickpeas 110cals 7g protein
+protein isolate
2 cups unsweetened soymilk 140cal 14g protein
1 cup brown rice 215cal 5g protein
1/2cup oatmeal 150cal 5g protein
=181g protein, 2375 calories.
fill in rest of calorie needs with fruit and call it a day while bulking.
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I've been a vegan for 3 years, I take in about 1700 calories, 130g protein. Pretty easy when you eat a lot of legumes, tofu, et al.
Lost 90 lbs, feel better, stronger. I've definitely put on muscle. I think it's a smart choice and your digestive system feels better. Carbs take up around 40-50% of my diet, but I've not had any issue with losing weight or putting on muscle. However all of my carbs are unrefined unprocessed oats, whole grains, legumes, et al.
As for the "teeth" argument, no humans aren't evolved to not eat meat, but they are designed to subsist of primarily plant products. Compare the human body to a slew of other carnivores and omnivores. Humans have a long digestive tract, we use primarly our molars to chew with, and honestly, we may have canine teeth, but you do you really think you could kill an animal in the wild with your bare hands and canine teeth? Incisors are prevalent within herbivore populations as well. Not that someone can't live healthy with meat or dairy in their diet, but one can also live especially well on a vegan diet. I know I feel better. And besides the health aspect of it, it's simply an environmentally conscious and animal-friendly way of eating.
And on the complete proteins aspect, if you eat a varied diet there is absolutely zero issue with complete proteins. It's all about amino acids within the proteins of the foods, some legumes lack one or two aminos that your body doesn't make, but another may have them, or some grain may have them or a nut or a vegetable... It's really a non-issue unless your sole food source is peanuts or something.
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[QUOTE=rickymartinn;658022293]
I don't see why people have trouble getting in protein needs on a non-animal product diet. Even if you eat mainly vegetarian/vegan and you have 75g of whey (or soy/pea) the other 100-150g isn't that hard to get or even that expensive.. lentils and oat bran are about the same price as eggs. The only trouble I ran into was trying to cut while doing this type of diet because of calorie restrictions. If you are bulking raw/vegan/veg is attainable. I am surprised there isn't a raw or vegan BB pro.
[/QUOTE]
Bill Pearl was a lacto-ovo vegetarian when he competed in his later years.
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strong bump on old thread.
btw protein isnt just protein. the AA from animal protein is superior for bodybuilding/athletic training purposes.
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[QUOTE=Delgadido;746109443]strong bump on old thread.
btw protein isnt just protein. the AA from animal protein is superior for bodybuilding/athletic training purposes.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is an old thread. I was looking up information on diets that were not entirely based on animal protein.
As to your latter statement, I have a question that you might be able to help with.
Animal protein surely has the amino acids required to form muscle. Eat muscle to gain muscle. That principle makes enough sense.
However, isn't it possible to get the same AA variation by just eating different types of vegetables with varying AA profiles? The only reason I could see animal Protein still being superior to plant protein in this case is due to straight bio availability.
I want to state that I don't believe that a pure Vegan diet is in any way the best way to go for bodybuilding purposes. However, wouldn't a diet with adequate milk and egg intake and the occasional fish/fowl thrown in there (one meal a day) with a plant base be healthier in the long run than ingesting all the **** that we do now? ( That I do anyway. Lots of red meat in my diet.)
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[QUOTE=WMBB;746113913]Yes, it is an old thread. I was looking up information on diets that were not entirely based on animal protein.
As to your latter statement, I have a question that you might be able to help with.
Animal protein surely has the amino acids required to form muscle. Eat muscle to gain muscle. That principle makes enough sense.
However, isn't it possible to get the same AA variation by just eating different types of vegetables with varying AA profiles? The only reason I could see animal Protein still being superior to plant protein in this case is due to straight bio availability.
I want to state that I don't believe that a pure Vegan diet is in any way the best way to go for bodybuilding purposes. However, wouldn't a diet with adequate milk and egg intake and the occasional fish/fowl thrown in there (one meal a day) with a plant base be healthier in the long run than ingesting all the **** that we do now? ( That I do anyway. Lots of red meat in my diet.)[/QUOTE]
vegans do not eat animal products at all. that includes milk and eggs.
there are some studies regarding leucine from duck feathers if you are into that.
the special AA content of animal products are not found in anything else that are not synthesized(unless some recent studies have been published)
i dont believe they even take in supplementation. at all.
even though i dont believe ppl should be vegetarians unless they have a problem digesting meat. Vegetarians can still survive via whey, egg, and milk.
vegans cant
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[QUOTE=CrossArmant;658045303]I've been a vegan for 3 years, I take in about 1700 calories, 130g protein. Pretty easy when you eat a lot of legumes, tofu, et al.
Lost 90 lbs, feel better, stronger. I've definitely put on muscle. I think it's a smart choice and your digestive system feels better. Carbs take up around 40-50% of my diet, but I've not had any issue with losing weight or putting on muscle. However all of my carbs are unrefined unprocessed oats, whole grains, legumes, et al.
As for the "teeth" argument, no humans aren't evolved to not eat meat, but they are designed to subsist of primarily plant products. Compare the human body to a slew of other carnivores and omnivores. Humans have a long digestive tract, we use primarly our molars to chew with, and honestly, we may have canine teeth, but you do you really think you could kill an animal in the wild with your bare hands and canine teeth? Incisors are prevalent within herbivore populations as well. Not that someone can't live healthy with meat or dairy in their diet, but one can also live especially well on a vegan diet. I know I feel better. And besides the health aspect of it, it's simply an environmentally conscious and animal-friendly way of eating.
And on the complete proteins aspect, if you eat a varied diet there is absolutely zero issue with complete proteins. It's all about amino acids within the proteins of the foods, some legumes lack one or two aminos that your body doesn't make, but another may have them, or some grain may have them or a nut or a vegetable... It's really a non-issue unless your sole food source is peanuts or something.[/QUOTE]
I mean, highly selective, specious, and myopic view of evolution.
Enjoy a vegan lifestlye, it's your choice and if it's a matter of principle, more power to you. Arguing that we aren't evolved to eat meat is asinine.
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[QUOTE=WMBB;746107403]Bill Pearl was a lacto-ovo vegetarian when he competed in his later years.[/QUOTE]milk and eggs=animal proteins.
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Doesn't soy has really bad side effects for males? Why in the hell would a man be a vegan? I'm kidding about the last question but I don't see being a vegan a bigger advantage to a normal balanced diet with fruits, veggies, dairy, and meat. But, if you are a vegan and you enjoy it, then fine but if your doing it because you think there is an advantage then you are making yourself miserable for no reason.
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[QUOTE=WMBB;746113913]Yes, it is an old thread. I was looking up information on diets that were not entirely based on animal protein.
As to your latter statement, I have a question that you might be able to help with.
Animal protein surely has the amino acids required to form muscle. Eat muscle to gain muscle. That principle makes enough sense.
[B]However, isn't it possible to get the same AA variation by just eating different types of vegetables with varying AA profiles? The only reason I could see animal Protein still being superior to plant protein in this case is due to straight bio availability.[/B]
I want to state that I don't believe that a pure Vegan diet is in any way the best way to go for bodybuilding purposes. However, wouldn't a diet with adequate milk and egg intake and the occasional fish/fowl thrown in there (one meal a day) with a plant base be healthier in the long run than ingesting all the **** that we do now? ( That I do anyway. Lots of red meat in my diet.)[/QUOTE]
I believe it is possible but likely very difficult. Animal/Diary proteins are complete proteins. This means they contain all essential Amino acids. The vast majority of vegetable proteins are incomplete but by combining specific proteins with each it other its likely you can come up with something just as effective. That or eat quinoa by the lb its a complete protein. :)
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[QUOTE=Electricheadd;746210853]I believe it is possible but likely very difficult. Animal/Diary proteins are complete proteins. This means they contain all essential Amino acids. The vast majority of vegetable proteins are incomplete but by combining specific proteins with each it other its likely you can come up with something just as effective. That or eat quinoa by the lb its a complete protein. :)[/QUOTE]
actually much of the information regarding complete amino acid profiles is myth. ever seen a gorrilla? guess how they build their massive muscles? vegetation and fruit.
a baby cow might gain 1000lbs in one year, 300 of which is most likely muscle...eating not much more than grass. i don't like to bring up the cow thing because people go on about how they have two stomachs blah blah blah, but their muscle is identical to ours and if complete amino acids were necessary to build that same muscle how on earth do they do it eating grass???
the gorilla example is much better since they so closely resemle us in physiology.
but if you absolutely have to believe in the myth that we need complete aa profiles - sprouted lentils are complete as is quinoa, but I must say I eat very miniscule amounts of either.
I've been vegan for 6 years, and have lost absolutely zero mass or strength, and in that six years I've only eaten a pound or two total of sprouted lentils or quinoa. How on earth is that possible?
Obviously I'm either a magical creature, gorillas are magical creatures, or the complete protein concept is complete bunk.
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[QUOTE=th3pwn3r;582932401]How many vegans have won the Olympia, Mr. Universe or even their IFBB pro card?[/QUOTE]
How many haven't used roids?
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[QUOTE=Romac;748302333]actually much of the information regarding complete amino acid profiles is myth. ever seen a gorrilla? guess how they build their massive muscles? vegetation and fruit.
a baby cow might gain 1000lbs in one year, 300 of which is most likely muscle...eating not much more than grass. i don't like to bring up the cow thing because people go on about how they have two stomachs blah blah blah, but their muscle is identical to ours and if complete amino acids were necessary to build that same muscle how on earth do they do it eating grass???
the gorilla example is much better since they so closely resemle us in physiology.
but if you absolutely have to believe in the myth that we need complete aa profiles - sprouted lentils are complete as is quinoa, but I must say I eat very miniscule amounts of either.
I've been vegan for 6 years, and have lost absolutely zero mass or strength, and in that six years I've only eaten a pound or two total of sprouted lentils or quinoa. How on earth is that possible?
Obviously I'm either a magical creature, gorillas are magical creatures, or the complete protein concept is complete bunk.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/18/article-1304093-0AD51D01000005DC-46_634x503_popup.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=Romac;748302333]actually much of the information regarding complete amino acid profiles is myth. ever seen a gorrilla? guess how they build their massive muscles? vegetation and fruit.
a baby cow might gain 1000lbs in one year, 300 of which is most likely muscle...eating not much more than grass. i don't like to bring up the cow thing because people go on about how they have two stomachs blah blah blah, but their muscle is identical to ours and if complete amino acids were necessary to build that same muscle how on earth do they do it eating grass???
the gorilla example is much better since they so closely resemle us in physiology.
but if you absolutely have to believe in the myth that we need complete aa profiles - sprouted lentils are complete as is quinoa, but I must say I eat very miniscule amounts of either.
I've been vegan for 6 years, and have lost absolutely zero mass or strength, and in that six years I've only eaten a pound or two total of sprouted lentils or quinoa. How on earth is that possible?
Obviously I'm either a magical creature, gorillas are magical creatures, or the complete protein concept is complete bunk.[/QUOTE]
Using a 600lb mountain gorilla or a cow to base your argument around borders on the absurd. They are an entirely different species, and we could always bring it back to the chimpanzee which is much closer to human and an omnivore. (With insane strength i might add) In either case I was not saying you need to eat individual foods with a complete Amino Acid profile. I was more pointing to the fact that you should pair foods together that would have a complete profile when combined.
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[QUOTE=Electricheadd;748312463]Using a 600lb mountain gorilla or a cow to base your argument around borders on the absurd. They are an entirely different species, and we could always bring it back to the chimpanzee which is much closer to human and an omnivore. (With insane strength i might add) In either case I was not saying you need to eat individual foods with a complete Amino Acid profile. I was more pointing to the fact that you should pair foods together that would have a complete profile when combined.[/QUOTE]
it's not really that absurd when you consider that muscle is muscle and requires the same building blocks to manufacture - a gorilla or cow cannot turn carbohydrates into protein any more than we can
but the primary point i was trying to make was that in the 6 years that i have been vegan, i have never ever taken any care whatsoever about food selection with regards to combining protein. Despite my lack of care i've not lost a single pound of muscle or strength, thus i must conclude that it's not as critical as people make it out to be.
of course there are variables i am not considering like luck - perhaps i'm just accidentally combining the perfect foods in the perfect quantities? could be, but it's unlikely.
the only thing i think about when shopping for groceries and planning meals is that i'm buying as many dark green vegetables as possible. i do eat many different beans, but none of them besides sprouted lentils are complete proteins. my family eats about one block of tofu per week, and maybe one block of tempeh, but that's split between four people. I apparently get about 15 to 20 grams of protein per day in my kashi cereal/soymilk, and i have no idea if those are complete proteins or not, but anything beyond that is pure luck. i'm also not trying to gain anymore - i'm 42 in a month and at this point in my life i just want to stay lean and strong and healthy
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^Congrats.
You are just now getting that the marketing of needing a high protein intake for muscle gains was a lie pushed by supplement companies to get you to waste your money on their products
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[QUOTE=th3pwn3r;582932401]How many vegans have won the Olympia, Mr. Universe or even their IFBB pro card?[/QUOTE]
How many vegans juice or even care to enter those things?
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[QUOTE=Los_Diablo;752197823]^Congrats.
You are just now getting that the marketing of needing a high protein intake for muscle gains was a lie pushed by supplement companies to get you to waste your money on their products[/QUOTE]
Indeed. I will say that whey is a convenient way to round out your daily protein intake when there's a deficit - but I laugh at the guys what are taking multiple scoops several times a day.
There are a lot of reasons not to be a strict vegan - but I do disagree with people who insist you absolutely need a lot of animal protein to be healthy. One doesn't need too look very far into the animal kingdom at a plethora of large animals that have no problems maintaining and building mass by eating nothing but plant sources. The animal protein we consume doesn't spontaneously appear out of nowhere. All of the amino acids we consume can ultimately be traced back to plant sources.
Having said that, most large herbivore mammals eat huge quantities of vegetation on a daily basis relative to their body weights. Animal sources are certainly more efficient.
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[QUOTE=msm00b;752273673]Indeed. I will say that whey is a convenient way to round out your daily protein intake when there's a deficit - but I laugh at the guys what are taking multiple scoops several times a day.
There are a lot of reasons not to be a strict vegan - but I do disagree with people who insist you absolutely need a lot of animal protein to be healthy. One doesn't need too look very far into the animal kingdom at a plethora of large animals that have no problems maintaining and building mass by eating nothing but plant sources. The animal protein we consume doesn't spontaneously appear out of nowhere. All of the amino acids we consume can ultimately be traced back to plant sources.
Having said that, most large herbivore mammals eat huge quantities of vegetation on a daily basis relative to their body weights. Animal sources are certainly more efficient.[/QUOTE]
well I know that EAA such as leucine are only derived from animal protein.
I used to take multiple scoops but not because I wanted to simply take in more protein than necessary but meet my daily requirement. i only take in about 100-130g a day unless i eat straight up meat.
Do you have non animal food sources that leucine can be derived from? I tried researching it but could not find anything.
I am a firm believer of a balanced diet. animal and plant.
edit:nvm leucine is found in soy beans and nuts. but its only like 1-4g per 100g
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[QUOTE=Romac;749590523]it's not really that absurd when you consider that muscle is muscle and requires the same building blocks to manufacture - a gorilla or cow cannot turn carbohydrates into protein any more than we can
but the primary point i was trying to make was that in the 6 years that i have been vegan, i have never ever taken any care whatsoever about food selection with regards to combining protein. Despite my lack of care i've not lost a single pound of muscle or strength, thus i must conclude that it's not as critical as people make it out to be.
of course there are variables i am not considering like luck - perhaps i'm just accidentally combining the perfect foods in the perfect quantities? could be, but it's unlikely.
the only thing i think about when shopping for groceries and planning meals is that i'm buying as many dark green vegetables as possible. i do eat many different beans, but none of them besides sprouted lentils are complete proteins. my family eats about one block of tofu per week, and maybe one block of tempeh, but that's split between four people. I apparently get about 15 to 20 grams of protein per day in my kashi cereal/soymilk, and i have no idea if those are complete proteins or not, but anything beyond that is pure luck. i'm also not trying to gain anymore - i'm 42 in a month and at this point in my life i just want to stay lean and strong and healthy[/QUOTE]
I think we will need to agree to disagree on the cow/gorilla debate. Cows have 6 stomachs and eat 30-70lbs of grass a day I suspect comparing what is optimal for a cow and what is optimal for a human is a bit different. Did you know that mountain gorilla's eat enough vegetation that they do not need to drink water? I suspect this would not be optimal in an athletic human, the core differences in our physiology is different enough that I would certainly not model my diet after one.
That said, I don't see anything wrong with a vegan diet for ethical or health purposes. There are many ways to accomplish the same goal. Your personal success is a good example of that. However, had you eaten complete proteins in optimal amounts would it have been different? (We will never know) It probably doesn't matter as long as your happy. The foods you describe Kashi/beans/soy are all incomplete when eaten alone but when you eat them together as part of a balanced diet I suspect you are getting a nearly complete amino acid profile. (I seem to remember beans/soy being a good combo)
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msmoob,
FWIW, I did try going vegan but it didn't workout for me. I have however GREATLY reduced my animal protein intake. Only time I eat animal protein is at supper, and it's usually fish or chicken breast. Sometimes I don't even eat animal protein at all. So yes I don't believe we need nearly as much protein as the supplement companies would have us believe.
People that go vegan and look bad look bad not because of the diet, but because they neglect things like getting in complete proteins and lifting especially.
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Don't get me wrong ... I think going vegetarian is stupid ...
The human body didn't evolve canine teeth for nothing. We're omnivorous creatures - trying to deny that fact is stupid. Every animal on this planet has to consume living (or once living) organic tissue to survive.
That, and meat is awesome.
"If god didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?" -Simpson