Ideal amount of protein Post Exercise is 20 grams.

It has been clearly established that ingesting protein after a workout augments muscle protein synthesis. While there have been a number of studies comparing different types of protein on this response, no studies have focused on the amount of protein that would elicit optimal increases in protein synthesis. Prominent protein researchers addressed this void in the literature by conducting a dose response study in healthy active men. The protocol involved subjects performing a resistance exercise session on five separate occasions. After exercise, they randomly consumed a drink containing different doses of protein: 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 grams. The source of protein was egg. Compared to consuming no protein, muscle protein synthesis was increased by 37% after the 5 g dose and 56% after the 10 g dose of protein. The 20 g dose condition increased protein synthesis even further by 97%. When 40 g of egg protein was ingested, there was no further increase in protein synthesis. These results indicate a dose response relationship between the amount of protein ingested and stimulation of protein synthesis after resistance exercise up to 20 grams of dietary protein. At the higher dose, there was a marked increase in protein oxidation suggesting that the extra protein was being used as fuel. This is a landmark study that shows 20 grams of high quality protein providing about 9 grams of essential amino acids is the ideal amount of protein to consume after resistance exercise to maximize protein synthesis.

Moore DR, Robinson MJ, Fry JL, Tang JE, Glover EI, Wilkinson SB, Prior T, Tarnopolsky MA, Phillips SM. Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men. Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec 3. [Epub ahead of print]

It was fasted also, so it might be even less.

Did the subjects consume protein only or protein plus carbs?

[QUOTE=GeneGnomeX;278526811]It was fasted also, so it might be even less.[/QUOTE]

The subjects were fasted? You would think that in a fasted state, the body would be less likely to use substrates for protein synthesis.

[QUOTE=neuron;278528291]Did the subjects consume protein only or protein plus carbs?[/QUOTE]

Just protein (egg)... emailed it to you.

[QUOTE=GeneGnomeX;278532011]Just protein (egg)... emailed it to you.[/QUOTE]

danke

[QUOTE=neuron;278528561]The subjects were fasted? You would think that in a fasted state, the body would be less likely to use substrates for protein synthesis.[/QUOTE]

Naw in a fasted state the body clings on to whatever we ingest, fat, carbs, protein, sugar.

[QUOTE=neuron;278528561]The subjects were fasted? You would think that in a fasted state, the body would be less likely to use substrates for protein synthesis.[/QUOTE]

That's what I meant... for those of us who aren't fasted it may be less than 20g to maximize.

[QUOTE=GeneGnomeX;278533491]That's what I meant... for those of us who aren't fasted it may be less than 20g to maximize.[/QUOTE]

That is what I was thinking as well. Now I am curious to see what protein synthesis dose rates are for those in a fed state. I think I have been wasting much protein over the years. It is also looking like all those previous studies that were saying the only 20 grams of protein should be consumed at a sitting may have been correct after all.

[QUOTE=leonidas300;278535161]That is what I was thinking as well. Now I am curious to see what protein synthesis dose rates are for those in a fed state. I think I have been wasting much protein over the years. It is also looking like all those previous studies that were saying the only 20 grams of protein should be consumed at a sitting may have been correct after all.[/QUOTE]

Another consideration, as the authors note in the discussion and that has been brought to light by Lyle, Layne, etc recently is that with frequent protein consumption resulting in chronic aminoacidemia and frequent refractory periods, there may be negative adaptations to this, as the authors quote it "could actually lead to dampening of the protein synthetic response to suboptimal (ie, <20 g) protein doses."

EDIT: I wonder if that may be a mechanism in which calorie restriction/intermittent fasting attenuates age associated skeletal muscle decline; our traditional 3 meal pattern will have one digesting for most of the day (if average meal takes about 5-6 hours).

[QUOTE=GeneGnomeX;278538031]Another consideration, as the authors note in the discussion and that has been brought to light by Lyle, Layne, etc recently is that with frequent protein consumption resulting in chronic aminoacidemia and frequent refractory periods, there may be negative adaptations to this, as the authors quote it "could actually lead to dampening of the protein synthetic response to suboptimal (ie, <20 g) protein doses."

EDIT: I wonder if that may be a mechanism in which calorie restriction/intermittent fasting attenuates age associated skeletal muscle decline; our traditional 3 meal pattern will have one digesting for most of the day (if average meal takes about 5-6 hours).[/QUOTE]

So one large meal a day with snacking is probably better from a LE standpoint but from a bodybuilding or "mass enhancement" perspective it is less than ideal. I tend to believe (without any real evidence) that intermittent fasting is much more beneficial for us from a evolutionary biological perspective.

[QUOTE=leonidas300;278535161]That is what I was thinking as well. Now I am curious to see what protein synthesis dose rates are for those in a fed state. I think I have been wasting much protein over the years. It is also looking like all those previous studies that were saying the only 20 grams of protein should be consumed at a sitting may have been correct after all.[/QUOTE]


thats a more often than not original idea... I mean you arent the first to think about it, but I like the "stray from the norm" idea you got goin on. Why dont you try for a couple weeks and tell us what happend?

[QUOTE=leonidas300;278523131]It has been clearly established that ingesting protein after a workout augments muscle protein synthesis. While there have been a number of studies comparing different types of protein on this response, no studies have focused on the amount of protein that would elicit optimal increases in protein synthesis. Prominent protein researchers addressed this void in the literature by conducting a dose response study in healthy active men. The protocol involved subjects performing a resistance exercise session on five separate occasions. After exercise, they randomly consumed a drink containing different doses of protein: 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 grams. The source of protein was egg. Compared to consuming no protein, muscle protein synthesis was increased by 37% after the 5 g dose and 56% after the 10 g dose of protein. The 20 g dose condition increased protein synthesis even further by 97%. When 40 g of egg protein was ingested, there was no further increase in protein synthesis. These results indicate a dose response relationship between the amount of protein ingested and stimulation of protein synthesis after resistance exercise up to 20 grams of dietary protein. At the higher dose, there was a marked increase in protein oxidation suggesting that the extra protein was being used as fuel. This is a landmark study that shows 20 grams of high quality protein providing about 9 grams of essential amino acids is the ideal amount of protein to consume after resistance exercise to maximize protein synthesis.

Moore DR, Robinson MJ, Fry JL, Tang JE, Glover EI, Wilkinson SB, Prior T, Tarnopolsky MA, Phillips SM. Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men. Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec 3. [Epub ahead of print][/QUOTE]

finally!

hopefully people will realize more is not better. i have usually stuck to the 20 pro 40 cho ratio.

Egg protein has high bioavailability. Those who supplement with whey might need more than 20g.

[QUOTE=BiggJohn;278576631]Egg protein has high bioavailability. Those who supplement with whey might need more than 20g.[/QUOTE]

the bv of whey is higher than that of egg. so with your rationale, you would need less whey.

[QUOTE=BiggJohn;278576631]Egg protein has high bioavailability. Those who supplement with whey might need more than 20g.[/QUOTE]

As does whey, by what measuring standard is egg protein superior?

Regardless, this cannot be directly applied to whey consumption for reasons independent of bioavailability.

It depends on how big you are and at what rate your muscle burn thru nourishment.

Physically superior people burn through more protein because their cells are of higher quality and require better nourishment.

[QUOTE=leonidas300;278523131]It has been clearly established that ingesting protein after a workout augments muscle protein synthesis. While there have been a number of studies comparing different types of protein on this response, no studies have focused on the amount of protein that would elicit optimal increases in protein synthesis. Prominent protein researchers addressed this void in the literature by conducting a dose response study in healthy active men. The protocol involved subjects performing a resistance exercise session on five separate occasions. After exercise, they randomly consumed a drink containing different doses of protein: 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 grams. The source of protein was egg. Compared to consuming no protein, muscle protein synthesis was increased by 37% after the 5 g dose and 56% after the 10 g dose of protein. The 20 g dose condition increased protein synthesis even further by 97%. When 40 g of egg protein was ingested, there was no further increase in protein synthesis. These results indicate a dose response relationship between the amount of protein ingested and stimulation of protein synthesis after resistance exercise up to 20 grams of dietary protein. At the higher dose, there was a marked increase in protein oxidation suggesting that the extra protein was being used as fuel. This is a landmark study that shows 20 grams of high quality protein providing about 9 grams of essential amino acids is the ideal amount of protein to consume after resistance exercise to maximize protein synthesis.

Moore DR, Robinson MJ, Fry JL, Tang JE, Glover EI, Wilkinson SB, Prior T, Tarnopolsky MA, Phillips SM. Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men. Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec 3. [Epub ahead of print][/QUOTE]

This study should be taken with a grain of salt. How man sets and reps were the subjects performing? Were they conditioned bodybuilders? Were they going to failure? Was the egg protein liquid, and thus traveling through the lumen at a rate faster than lacteals can absorb the amino acids? Another study showed that transit time was key.

I, for one, will stick to 35g protein per meal

Interesting stuff here. Subbed for discussion :D

I have access to the full study (link below), so I can give some answers.

[url]http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/89/1/161[/url]

[QUOTE=alaska21;278608491]How man sets and reps were the subjects performing?[/QUOTE]

4 Sets, 8 - 10 reps

[QUOTE=alaska21;278608491]Were they going to failure?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

From [b]Infusion Protocol[/b], of [b]Subjects and Methods[/b]
[quote][i]Bilateral resistance exercise was performed on guided-motion machines and involved 4 sets each of leg press, knee extension, and leg curl using a predetermined load designed to elicit failure within 8 - 10 repetitions. Each set was completed within 25 s with a rest period of 120 s between each set.[/i][/quote]

[QUOTE=alaska21;278608491]Were they conditioned bodybuilders?[/QUOTE]

They were trained.

From [b]Subjects[/b], of [b]Subjects and Methods[/b]
[quote][i]Six healthy active males ... who had 4 mo of previous recreational weight-lifting experience (range: 4 mo - 8 y) volunteered to participate in the study.[/i][/quote]

[QUOTE=alaska21;278608491] Was the egg protein liquid, and thus traveling through the lumen at a rate faster than lacteals can absorb the amino acids?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

From [b]Study Design[/b], of [b]Subjects and Methods[/b]
[quote][i]After exercise, participants consumed a drink containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g egg protein in a randomized order.[/i][/quote]

[QUOTE=alaska21;278608491]This study should be taken with a grain of salt. How man sets and reps were the subjects performing? Were they conditioned bodybuilders? Were they going to failure? Was the egg protein liquid, and thus traveling through the lumen at a rate faster than lacteals can absorb the amino acids? Another study showed that transit time was key.

I, for one, will stick to 35g protein per meal[/QUOTE]

You label it as worthless without reading it?

This study wasn't comparing different proteins against one another... it was only egg protein in several different dosings.

Yes they were trained, 4 sets of each: leg press, knee extension, leg curl; pre-determined load taht elicited failure within 8-10 reps. Rest 25sec, 120sec between sets. Protein was dissolved in water, yes.

[QUOTE=GeneGnomeX;278616461]You label it as worthless without reading it?

This study wasn't comparing different proteins against one another... it was only egg protein in several different dosings.

Yes they were trained, 4 sets of each: leg press, knee extension, leg curl; pre-determined load taht elicited failure within 8-10 reps. Rest 25sec, 120sec between sets. Protein was dissolved in water, yes.[/QUOTE]

People do not like to be told what they were doing was wrong. WE are much more comfortable doing what we have always believed to be right, even in the face of contrary evidence, people (even intelligent ones) will stubbornly cling to their old belief.

I think I am going to stick right around 30 grams Whey Casein with 60 grams Carbs post workout. This should be fine as I imagine I weigh more (230lbs) than the study participants.

I think the only exceptions to this study would be for people that weigh considerably more than the subject participants or for those using AAS which increases protein synthesis. For the normal athlete 20grams per sitting should be more than enough.

[QUOTE=leonidas300;278633391]I think the only exceptions to this study would be for people that weigh considerably more than the subject participants or for those using AAS which increases protein synthesis. For the normal athlete 20grams per sitting should be more than enough.[/QUOTE]

Definitely agree. I would like to see a study with AAS ;)

[QUOTE=mjoto;278532801]Naw in a fasted state the body clings on to whatever we ingest, fat, carbs, protein, sugar.[/QUOTE]

The body may "cling" to nutrients, but certainly won't direct them to an anabolic pathway until its energy demands are met. Protein synthesis and amino acid transport are mediated by insulin and IRS, which wouldn't be governing the environment in a fasted state. Glycogen phosphorylase would be the most overriding enzyme until the levels of intracellular g-6-p levels increase to a certain point. Protein synthesis would be one of the last activities since it requires much more ATP and time.

[QUOTE=GeneGnomeX;278616461]You label it as worthless without reading it?

This study wasn't comparing different proteins against one another... it was only egg protein in several different dosings.

Yes they were trained, 4 sets of each: leg press, knee extension, leg curl; pre-determined load taht elicited failure within 8-10 reps. Rest 25sec, 120sec between sets. Protein was dissolved in water, yes.[/QUOTE]

Did you do this study or something lol? I said take it with a grain of salt...not that it was worthless. How the hell do you get worthless out of that...you almost seemed offended at my comment when I was just saying that one study does not mean you should go change everything. We will see what other studies show in the future to confirm the evidence.

Who knows how valid the data was...no one but the researchers witnessed the experiment thus we cannot eliminate the chance that some of their techniques had some degree of error. Some labs even toss out data that hurts their study (One study on global warming comes to mind where they deleted data points that hurt P values).



**All I'm saying is wait for more evidence before you change everything. Never once did I say it was worthless...wtf.

[QUOTE=leonidas300;278633391]I think the only exceptions to this study would be for people that weigh considerably more than the subject participants or for those using AAS which increases protein synthesis. For the normal athlete 20grams per sitting should be more than enough.[/QUOTE]

So then no one except AAS users need more than 100-120g protein a day, if one were to eat 6 times a day? Seems too low imo...but who knows.

[QUOTE=alaska21;278718931]Did you do this study or something lol? I said take it with a grain of salt...not that it was worthless. How the hell do you get worthless out of that...you almost seemed offended at my comment when I was just saying that one study does not mean you should go change everything. We will see what other studies show in the future to confirm the evidence.

Who knows how valid the data was...no one but the researchers witnessed the experiment thus we cannot eliminate the chance that some of their techniques had some degree of error. Some labs even toss out data that hurts their study (One study on global warming comes to mind where they deleted data points that hurt P values).



**All I'm saying is wait for more evidence before you change everything. Never once did I say it was worthless...wtf.[/QUOTE]

i understand that you didnt say it was worthless, but this is the most accurate studies we have seen in terms of protein recommendations pwo. therefore, we should not "take it with a grain of salt". most other studies i have seen done on this matter have recommended 20 g as well but the studies werent as good as this.

also, we cant assume studies were tampered with. with that rationale, why even look at studies? what would their motivation even be to throw out data on this topic? something like global warming has much more personal activism involved.

[QUOTE=alaska21;278721541]So then no one except AAS users need more than 100-120g protein a day, if one were to eat 6 times a day? Seems too low imo...but who knows.[/QUOTE]

this is talking about post workout, not throughout the day. you body cannot absorb as much protein pwo.

[QUOTE=alaska21;278718931]Did you do this study or something lol? I said take it with a grain of salt...not that it was worthless. How the hell do you get worthless out of that...you almost seemed offended at my comment when I was just saying that one study does not mean you should go change everything. We will see what other studies show in the future to confirm the evidence.

Who knows how valid the data was...no one but the researchers witnessed the experiment thus we cannot eliminate the chance that some of their techniques had some degree of error. Some labs even toss out data that hurts their study (One study on global warming comes to mind where they deleted data points that hurt P values).



**All I'm saying is wait for more evidence before you change everything. Never once did I say it was worthless...wtf.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, things need to be reproduced and support built. I was under the assumption that this was understood by those reading this forum.

Perhaps it is an internet miscommunication, but your phrasing came out as hostile. A lot of people here seem to disregard research completely if it doesn't match exactly with their routine. With this explanation I understand what you are saying.