To build 1 lb of muscle per week, you only need 14 extra grams protein per day

If 1 lb muscle developed through lifting in 1 week...

1 lb muscle = 70% H2O, 22% protein, 7% fat/ash
1 lb = 454 g
22% of 454 g = 100 g extra protein needed

100 g protein/7 days = 14 g protein/day
e.g. 1 glass of milk = 8 g

Thus, no supplements required…
if too much extra protein = extra calories = extra fat! (but even worse, the negative effects on kidneys)

From 2012 Dietary Reference Intakes:
For RDA of protein, convert the weight from pounds to kilograms. There are 2.2 lb. per 1 kg. So if Joe weigh 150 lb., divide 150 by 2.2, to get 68 kg.
Plug the weight in kilograms into the conversion calculation. It is recommended to get 0.8 g of protein per kilogram of body weight. For the Joe, multiply 68 times 0.8, which equals 54.4 g. Thus a 150-lb. person needs about 54 g of protein per day.

FYI: For vegetarians, multiply the amount of protein non-animal sources by 2. The [B]MAX[/B] intake of protein for [B]anyone[/B] (yes, this includes professional athletes) without imposing health risks is 2X RDA for protein.

So, to avoid health risks, Joe should eat at [B]most[/B] 108 grams of protein.

[B][I]Carbohydrate should act as the main fuel in a workout, not protein.[/I][/B]


[B]So to build 1 lb of muscle/week if you are a 150 lb male, you would need 68 g protein per day[/B], assuming you are consuming enough glucose and fat to fuel your body through workouts.

Most of the time, if you eat a balanced and complete diet, 1 scoop of whey/day + regular food will get the job done.

Additionally, I urge you all (if you have been consuming excessive amts of protein) to get a urine analysis done for proteinuria and bloodwork for ammonia in the blood. A diet in which protein makes up more than 30% of your caloric intake causes a buildup of toxic ketones. So-called ketogenic diets can thrust your kidneys into overdrive in order to flush these ketones from your body. As your kidneys rid your body of these toxic ketones, you can lose a significant amount of water, which puts you at risk of dehydration, particularly if you exercise heavily.

That water loss often shows up on the scale as weight loss. But along with losing water, you lose muscle mass and bone calcium. The dehydration also strains your kidneys and puts stress on your heart.

Before buying protein supplements, ask yourself, "Are these companies who state a recommended amount of protein when weight lifting making profit off of me if I think I need [I]more[/I] protein than I actually do." Chances are, yes.

Also keep in mind that supplements are NOT regulated by the FDA. Many supplements (jack3d, USP labs products, etc.) include vitamins, minerals, and other compounds well over the upper limit considered safe.

what?

BRB eating well below BMR cause supposedly I'll still gain muscle whilst killing myself

[QUOTE=AlwaysTryin;855064043]what?

BRB eating well below BMR cause supposedly I'll still gain muscle whilst killing myself[/QUOTE]

You should eat extra carbohydrate to fill the "void" of the extra protein you cut out of your diet.

I shoulda paid more attention in science class o_O

OP. Please stop taking drugs.

What you are saying is total BroScience. And current medical science doesn't support anything you've said. Please stop cherry picking some random facts to try and make it into a logical argument. You will fail. And you have. Massively.

Not only is your post utterly and totally ridiculous, it doesn't even deserve a rebuttal as that would be akin to trying to prove evolution to creationists or the spherical shape of the planet to the Flat Earth Society...

[QUOTE=matxjos;855061543]If 1 lb muscle developed through lifting in 1 week...

1 lb muscle = 70% H2O, 22% protein, 7% fat/ash
1 lb = 454 g
22% of 454 g = 100 g extra protein needed

100 g protein/7 days = 14 g protein/day
e.g. 1 glass of milk = 8 g

Thus, no supplements required…
if too much extra protein = extra calories = extra fat! (but even worse, the negative effects on kidneys)

From 2012 Dietary Reference Intakes:
For RDA of protein, convert the weight from pounds to kilograms. There are 2.2 lb. per 1 kg. So if Joe weigh 150 lb., divide 150 by 2.2, to get 68 kg.
Plug the weight in kilograms into the conversion calculation. It is recommended to get 0.8 g of protein per kilogram of body weight. For the Joe, multiply 68 times 0.8, which equals 54.4 g. Thus a 150-lb. person needs about 54 g of protein per day.

FYI: For vegetarians, multiply the amount of protein non-animal sources by 2. The [B]MAX[/B] intake of protein for [B]anyone[/B] (yes, this includes professional athletes) without imposing health risks is 2X RDA for protein.

So, to avoid health risks, Joe should eat at [B]most[/B] 108 grams of protein.

[B][I]Carbohydrate should act as the main fuel in a workout, not protein.[/I][/B]


[B]So to build 1 lb of muscle/week if you are a 150 lb male, you would need 68 g protein per day[/B], assuming you are consuming enough glucose and fat to fuel your body through workouts.[/QUOTE]

If only it was that easy!

First off the RDA of .8g/kg/bw is put forth assuming a sedentary individual. The ratios go up depending on the activity level and age. For instance children and even elderly have different/increased protein needs.

The max minimum RDA for basic metabolic function is 2.0--2.2g/kg/bw, which includes children at certain ages and high endurance athletes, which at 2.2 is 1g/lb/bw! Power lifters it goes down to 1.8--2.0, others engaging in heavy resistance training it can go down to 1.4--1.8 etc etc. This in no way means that the upper minimum limit is harmful, at least it hasn't been proven, unless perhaps you have renal issues, at which time you should be under the care of a physician.

1g/lb/bw is given by many here as a way to insure sufficiency with an easy calculation, and unless you can show me evidence suggesting this is harmful, I see it as an easy way for most to calculate their needs. The average diet of the American population not exercising, greatly exceeds the .8g/kg/bw.

[QUOTE=ArchangelEST;855074873]OP. Please stop taking drugs.

What you are saying is total BroScience. And current medical science doesn't support anything you've said. Please stop cherry picking some random facts to try and make it into a logical argument. You will fail. And you have. Massively.

Not only is your post utterly and totally ridiculous, it doesn't even deserve a rebuttal as that would be akin to trying to prove evolution to creationists or the spherical shape of the planet to the Flat Earth Society...[/QUOTE]

Actually, what you're saying is "broscience"

Does current medical science support anything you have said? I am not trying to antagonize you, only help you. I do not want you (and excessive protein eaters) to suffer from poor health.

How did I cherry pick random facts. I believe what I have said is logical. I would like to see a short "response" to what I said.

[QUOTE=rand18m;855075723]If only it was that easy!

First off the RDA of .8g/kg/bw is put forth assuming a sedentary individual. The ratios go up depending on the activity level and age. For instance children and even elderly have different/increased protein needs.

The max minimum RDA for basic metabolic function is 2.0--2.2g/kg/bw, which includes children at certain ages and high endurance athletes, which at 2.2 is 1g/lb/bw! Power lifters it goes down to 1.8--2.0, others engaging in heavy resistance training it can go down to 1.4--1.8 etc etc. This in no way means that the upper minimum limit is harmful, at least it hasn't been proven, unless perhaps you have renal issues, at which time you should be under the care of a physician.

1g/lb/bw is given by many here as a way to insure sufficiency with an easy calculation, and unless you can show me evidence suggesting this is harmful, I see it as an easy way for most to calculate their needs. The average diet of the American population not exercising, greatly exceeds the .8g/kg/bw.[/QUOTE]

What is a "maximum minimum RDA?"
When you mention that BMR should be 2.0--2.2g/kg/bw for kids/endurance athletes, are you referring to grams in protein?

Does this mean you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?

[QUOTE=Taziar;855105743]Does this mean you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?[/QUOTE]

Indeed you can. Adipose tissue is available as a form of energy at all times, so as long as you have fat (fat per gram produces roughly 4X the amt of energy in ATP as glucose [carbohydrate])

As glycogen stores are depleted, your body goes into gluconeogenesis (breakdown of muscle into amino acids (mostly alanine) into pyruvate to glucose).

Remember than ketogenic diets are foolish because the brain must have glucose to function. Without glucose (carbohydrate), the brain must catabolize muscle protein through gluconeogenesis to administer to its energy needs.

Here is a nice graph of gluconeogensis: [ATTACH=CONFIG]4278733[/ATTACH]

[QUOTE=matxjos;855108193]Indeed you can. Adipose tissue is available as a form of energy at all times, so as long as you have fat (fat per gram produces roughly 4X the amt of energy as glucose [carbohydrate])

As glycogen stores are depleted, your body goes into gluconeogenesis (breakdown of muscle into amino acids (mostly alanine) into pyruvate to glucose).

Remember than ketogenic diets are foolish because the brain must have glucose to function. Without glucose (carbohydrate), the brain must catabolize muscle protein through gluconeogenesis to administer to its energy needs.[/QUOTE]

The brains primary source for fuel is glucose but is fully capable of using ketone bodies for fuel and does so on a regular basis.

[QUOTE=rand18m;855111143]The brains primary source for fuel is glucose but is fully capable of using ketone bodies for fuel and does so on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]

Ketone bodies only support ~50% brain function

OP, for your claim to be true, you are assuming the RDA's for protein should be used to determine intake. The RDA's are a compilation of the dietary needs for a wide range in the population. The RDA's are a good starting point, but the majority of research for weightlifters recommends a higher protein intake than what you recommend.

Since the majority of Americans are overweight and eat a diet high in fats and carbohydrates, perhaps the RDA's are a good point for that population to start with.

[QUOTE=foodandfitness;855111573]OP, for your claim to be true, you are assuming the RDA's for protein should be used to determine intake. The RDA's are a compilation of the dietary needs for a wide range in the population. The RDA's are a good starting point, but the majority of research for weightlifters recommends a higher protein intake than what you recommend.

Since the majority of Americans are overweight and eat a diet high in fats and carbohydrates, perhaps the RDA's are a good point for that population to start with.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you and rand1m about this. Personally however, I feel as if many bodybuilders go overboard on their protein (esp. those who consume 200g+/day as a 150lb male), but to each his own.

[QUOTE=matxjos;855111523]Ketone bodies only support ~50% brain function[/QUOTE]

I would be interested in some clarity on that.

[QUOTE=matxjos;855114693]I agree with you and rand1m about this. [b]Personally however, I feel as if many bodybuilders go overboard on their protein (esp. those who consume 200g+/day as a 150lb male), but to each his own.[/b][/QUOTE]

I wouldn't disagree with that at all, however unless it's proven harmful I can't suggest they absolutely stop, therefore as long as they consume sufficient amounts of the remaining macro/micro they should be ok.

[QUOTE=rand18m;855115863]I would be interested in some clarity on that.[/QUOTE]
There are a decent number of scientific papers regarding ketone bodies done on rats. Obviously, this isn't a feasible experiment to do on humans, so unfortunately there isn't a way to test IQs, alertness, etc. of humans abstaining from glucose as it's unethical. It is well known, however, that without glucose (ketosis), a condition which occurs in the body by incomplete fat breakdown, arises with low carbohydrate intake and can cause weakness, nausea, dehydration, dizziness and irritability --- and eventually coma.

There are negative effects of a ketogenic diet - maybe not the first few days - but a prolonged diet relying on ketone bodies and amino acids for energy production is detrimental to one's health.

[QUOTE=matxjos;855122833]There are a decent number of scientific papers regarding ketone bodies done on rats. Obviously, this isn't a feasible experiment to do on humans, so unfortunately there isn't a way to test IQs, alertness, etc. of humans abstaining from glucose as it's unethical. It is well known, however, that without glucose (ketosis), a condition which occurs in the body by incomplete fat breakdown, arises with low carbohydrate intake and can cause weakness, nausea, dehydration, dizziness and irritability --- and eventually coma.

There are negative effects of a ketogenic diet - maybe not the first few days - but a prolonged diet relying on ketone bodies and amino acids for energy production is detrimental to one's health.[/QUOTE]

So then how did you come up with the 50% number?

Don't tell the people on the keto site that! LOL

I have never understood the reasoning behind eliminating a macro nutrient from anyone's diet unless there is a serious medical reason to do so. But there are people who have success with keto diets and I do think the over consumption of carbohydrate is more detrimental to the average diet than the over consumption of protein above the RDA's listed for protein.

[QUOTE=matxjos;855122833]There are a decent number of scientific papers regarding ketone bodies done on rats. Obviously, this isn't a feasible experiment to do on humans, so unfortunately there isn't a way to test IQs, alertness, etc. of humans abstaining from glucose as it's unethical. It is well known, however, that without glucose (ketosis), a condition which occurs in the body by incomplete fat breakdown, arises with low carbohydrate intake and can cause weakness, nausea, dehydration, dizziness and irritability --- and eventually coma.

There are negative effects of a ketogenic diet - maybe not the first few days - but a prolonged diet relying on ketone bodies and amino acids for energy production is detrimental to one's health.[/QUOTE]

Oh, also there are a number of studies in rats that show high protein diets greatly increase mortality, you get my point!

[QUOTE=matxjos;855103143]Actually, what you're saying is "broscience"

Does current medical science support anything you have said? I am not trying to antagonize you, only help you. I do not want you (and excessive protein eaters) to suffer from poor health.

How did I cherry pick random facts. I believe what I have said is logical. I would like to see a short "response" to what I said.[/QUOTE]

What you say only sounds logical, but is indeed a mess of logical fallacies as you are making assumptions based on faulty or unsuitable evidence.


High protein diets have NOT been proven to be dangerous to healthy organ function. It is an issue for only those with an already existing medical condition. If you can prove otherwise, post it here - I'm sure just about everyone would like to know your sources.

Research has been proven again and again, that protein requirements for optimal athletic development can go to around 2,2g per KG of bodyweight. And in some cases, even beyond that has shown some rare positive correlations.
WHile glucose is the main source of fuel - adequate protein intake is required to maintain and improve muscle mass.

And it is IMPOSSIBLE to use purely theoretical calculations in a zero-variation perfect human body and apply those to the general population like you have did.

***


In regard to protein intake, nitrogen balance techniques suggest that the protein requirements to attain zero nitrogen balance in those that engage in resistance training range from 1.2–2.2 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight [1-6]. FYI: 1.2 grams per kg = 0.54 grams per pound and 2.2 grams per kg = 1 gram per pound of bodyweight.

--------------------
1. [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434[/url]
2. [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15798080[/url]
3. [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1763249[/url]
4. [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023001[/url]
5. [url]http://sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html[/url]
6. [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15212752[/url]

These give a wider understanding into protein needs and the large variation in suggested amounts. Research is constantly failing to show an accurate range for protein intake requirements due to the large amount of variations in one's diet and activity.

Thus, a safe "minimum" (but large) intake is recommended to guarantee optimal development. As research showing any negative effects to protein consumption is almost non-existent, limiting your protein intake is not needed.

You make silly claims like:

[quote]A diet in which protein makes up more than 30% of your caloric intake causes a buildup of toxic ketones. So-called ketogenic diets can thrust your kidneys into overdrive in order to flush these ketones from your body.[/quote]

Ketogenic diets are dependent on carbohydrate intake being low. Protein is really not the issue in the slightest. In fact, protein helps to alleviate the issue to some degree as gluconeogenesis starts taking place in greater rate, converting amino acids into glucose to help with the energy needs of the body.

While Ketogenic diets have some certain risks and definitely aren't suited for everyone, their danger is also sometimes rather exaggerated.


---

If you are really not trolling, then I suggest you stop viewing the human body like a perfect zero-variance machine where a single theoretical approach will cover all the bases in all situations. Cause such a view is just ridiculous.

OP = Muppet

So this is the after effect of excessive drug use.

[QUOTE=matxjos;855111523]So to build 1 lb of muscle/week if you are a 150 lb male, you would need 68g protein per day[/QUOTE]


Do you even lift?

[QUOTE=matxjos;855061543]If 1 lb muscle developed through lifting in 1 week...

1 lb muscle = 70% H2O, 22% protein, 7% fat/ash
1 lb = 454 g
22% of 454 g = 100 g extra protein needed

100 g protein/7 days = 14 g protein/day e.g. 1 glass of milk = 8 g

It is recommended to get 0.8 g of protein per kilogram of body weight. For the Joe, multiply 68 times 0.8, which equals 54.4 g. Thus a 150-lb. person needs about 54 g of protein per day.

[B]So to build 1 lb of muscle/week if you are a 150 lb male, you would need 68 g protein per day[/B], assuming you are consuming enough glucose and fat to fuel your body through workouts.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah right: You assume the following

1) 0.8g/Protein per kg bodyweight is exactly the right amount of protein for everybody to keep its body running, regardless of actual bodyfat percentage/muscle mass relative to bodyweight and actual activity.
2) If you are taking in more calories than you spend. Every g of protein surplus will be synthesised to muscle.


Do you know what nitrogen balance means? Nitrogen in our bodys is bound to Aminoacids, so if you measure the amount our body discards and subtract it from the amount we ingest by eating Proteins we get the nitrogen balance. A positive nitrogen balance means growth, a negative balance means breaking down of muscle tissue.

now some quotes from actual scientific studies:

[quote=Greg Bradley-Popovich, MS, MS]
In a cross-over study examining the first two months of training for 12 untrained males averaging, 22.4 years of age, Lemon, Tarnoplosky, MacDougall and Atkinson (1992) divided subjects into a relatively low-protein group receiving 1.35 g/kg/day and a high-protein group consuming 2.619 g/kg/day. The two dietary phases were separated by a one-week ad libitum washout period. The trainees performed an "intensive" workout routine 6 days/week. In this 3-day split routine, chest and back were worked one day followed by legs the next day, and then finished with shoulders and arms on the third day. The cycle then repeated itself. Each workout consisted of 5-8 exercises, each performed for 4 sets at 70-85% of the individual's one repetition maximum. Energy was consumed in the amount of roughly 39 kcal/kg. The investigators reported an enhanced nitrogen retention at 2.62 g/kg/day as opposed to 1.35 g/kg/day (8.9 plus or minus 4.2 and -3.4 plus or minus 1.9 g N/day), respectively. [b]In fact, all 12 participants were in negative nitrogen balance when consuming 1.35 g protein/kg/day[/b]. Using linear regression analysis, Lemon et al. predicted zero balance would have occurred in the low-protein group at 1.43 g/kg/day and the high-protein group at 1.53 g/kg/day. After adding a safety margin of 2 standard deviations, [b]their minimum recommended protein intake was 1.63-1.73 g/kg/day[/b].
[/quote]

[quote=Greg Bradley-Popovich, MS, MS]
Another study of four champion weight lifters ranging in age from 21 to 34 years old suggested an average protein intake of 2.2 g/kg/day resulted in a positive nitrogen balance of 1.85 g N (Laritcheva, Yalovaya, Shubin, and Smirnov, 1978). [b]One lifter who consumed the least protein at 1.85 g/kg had a negative nitrogen balance of -0.88 g N[/b]. The weight lifters exercised 90-150 minutes per workout, and energy balance was approximately neutral. Nitrogen losses through the integumenta were not taken into consideration. It is assumed that the nitrogen retention data are from a single observation day for each weight lifter.
[/quote]

[quote=Paul GL. Dietary protein requirements of physically active individuals. Sports Med 1989; 8:154-176]
It has been shown that the protein requirements for athletes may well exceed that suggested by the (USRDA) .80 g/kg/day. If an individuals protein requirement increases in response to exercise, then changes in protein metabolism will become apparent. When the body is in a homeostatic state, protein synthesis is equal to protein degradation and the protein requirement of the body for tissue maintenance is satisfied. The most common way to detect changes in protein metabolism is to assess nitrogen balance of the body.

Positive nitrogen balance occurs when the total nitrogen excreted in the urine, feces and sweat is less than the total nitrogen ingested. Positive nitrogen balance must exist for new tissue to be synthesized. When dietary protein intake or total energy intake is inadequate to maintain tissues total nitrogen balance, negative nitrogen balance occurs and new tissue is unable to be synthesized. When the body is in nitrogen balance, protein and energy intake is sufficient to maintain tissue protein needs and the amounts of nitrogen entering and exiting the body are equal.

The results of nitrogen balance studies on endurance athletes indicates that these athletes have protein requirements that exceed the USRDA of 0.8 g/kg/day. A study found that endurance athletes (defined as training for at least 12 hours per week for at least 5 years) require 1.37 g/kg/day of protein to maintain nitrogen balance compared to 0.73 g/kg/day for sedentary individuals.

It appears that weight training can also lead to a daily protein requirement that exceeds the current USRDA. It has been found that 2.0 to 2.2 g/kg/day of protein was barely sufficient to maintain nitrogen balance during moderate intensity weight training. Furthermore, weightlifter's protein requirements increased proportionally to training intensity. [b]Research has shown that 2.0 to 2.6 g/kg/day of protein are required for periods of very intense weight training, whereas protein intakes of 2.0 g/kg/day maintained a positive nitrogen balance during periods of less intense weight training.[/b]

[b]It is clear that athletes need to consume more protein than the current USRDA for 0.8 g/kg/day in order to maintain nitrogen balance[/b]. Conversely, since the requirements of carbohydrates, and overall calories also increase with physical activity, the recommended proportion of calories from protein does not change significantly. With a calorie sufficient diet, protein requirement values needed to maintain positive nitrogen balance of both weight trained and endurance trained athletes constitutes intakes of 12% to 20% of total daily calories.
[/quote]

i do not want to go on. Your assumptions are utter crap and any thesis based on those assumptions is not worth the time you spent to write it down,

regards

Um OP, nobody knows how many grams of protein are required to build a pound of muscle per week. The answer is dependent on a million simultaneously occurring intrinsic factors. And BTW, healthy kidneys can process 'excessive' amounts of protein just fine. Only people with existing kidney disease need to worry about ingesting too much protein

[QUOTE=faifer2k;855373833]Yeah right: You assume the following

1) 0.8g/Protein per kg bodyweight is exactly the right amount of protein for everybody to keep its body running, regardless of actual bodyfat percentage/muscle mass relative to bodyweight and actual activity.
2) If you are taking in more calories than you spend. Every g of protein surplus will be synthesised to muscle.


Do you know what nitrogen balance means? Nitrogen in our bodys is bound to Aminoacids, so if you measure the amount our body discards and subtract it from the amount we ingest by eating Proteins we get the nitrogen balance. A positive nitrogen balance means growth, a negative balance means breaking down of muscle tissue.

now some quotes from actual scientific studies:







i do not want to go on. Your assumptions are utter crap and any thesis based on those assumptions is not worth the time you spent to write it down,

regards[/QUOTE]

FYI OP is red already. It's been a while but I believe one of the key note long term studies for 2.2 kg/Day specified that high positive nitrogen balance didn't have a one to one correspondence to muscle growth. I am suspicious of 2.0 kg/day being the bottom of the muscle growth window. The OP is certainly full of crap, but taking things to the other extreme is normally detrimental to people because they often add protein by removing nutrient rich food like fruit and vegetables.

[QUOTE=lsiberian;855397913]FYI OP is red already. It's been a while but I believe one of the key note long term studies for 2.2 kg/Day specified that high positive nitrogen balance didn't have a one to one correspondence to muscle growth. I am suspicious of 2.0 kg/day being the bottom of the muscle growth window. The OP is certainly full of crap, but taking things to the other extreme is normally detrimental to people because they often add protein by removing nutrient rich food like fruit and vegetables.[/QUOTE]

Different studies by different scientists and different control groups. The study i quoted above stated "their minimum recommended protein intake was 1.63-1.73 g/kg/day." I just wanted to make my point regarding that extra 14g of protein a day to build 1lbs of muscle crap :)

I personally feel that the 2g/kg rule, which is followed by LOTS of recreational athletes works fine and even a bit less would not visibly hurt the growth of 95% of the recreational lifting population. The debate about "macros are everything" vs "healthy eating" is another point. Sanity dictates us not to get our macros from snickers, french fries, bacon and P&J sandwiches, still it would work if eaten in the correct amounts. I would alway encourage people to eat micronutrient-dense food as well. Veggies and fruits are great, I eat about 1lbs of fruit and 1lbs of veggies every day and I love it.

[QUOTE=matxjos;855122833]There are a decent number of scientific papers regarding ketone bodies done on rats. Obviously, this isn't a feasible experiment to do on humans, so unfortunately there isn't a way to test IQs, alertness, etc. of humans abstaining from glucose as it's unethical. It is well known, however, that without glucose (ketosis), a condition which occurs in the body by incomplete fat breakdown, arises with low carbohydrate intake and can cause weakness, nausea, dehydration, dizziness and irritability --- and eventually coma.

There are negative effects of a ketogenic diet - maybe not the first few days - but a prolonged diet relying on ketone bodies and amino acids for energy production is detrimental to one's health.[/QUOTE]

Ok then...

This thread cracked me up good.. Thx OP man

I was hoping OP would be slightly in the green so I could help make him red..

I was too late.