anyone know any good exercises for building the serratus muscle?
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anyone know any good exercises for building the serratus muscle?
dumbbell pull overs
[QUOTE=JohnnyD111;649121903]dumbbell pull overs[/QUOTE]
This + anything that abducts the scapulae or elevates the shoulder girdle, so overhead press and bench press lockouts.
Question: due to most people (including myself) having a complete lack of muscle awareness in regard to things like the serratus anterior and pec minor, I am wondering, are people saying that pull-overs work the SA due to feeling something in the arm pit and assuming that's what is doing it?
I ask because from what I've read about the functions that the serratus anterior does (scapular protraction/abduction, preventing winging, upward rotation, slight elevation) I don't understand what aspect of pull-overs would work this muscle.
[url]http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/SerratusAnterior.html[/url]
Is there a function of this muscle I am not aware of? Did ExRx miss out on something? Is there a movement or stabilization aspect of the serratus not explained on Wikipedia?
I'd like to educate myself if this is the case, because I had thought pull-overs were an exercise for the sternal pec major and the lats. Is there an article which explains how this muscle does the pullover work? My imagination isn't grasping it, thus retaining skepticism.
[QUOTE=brudman;649129323]bench press lockouts.[/QUOTE]These don't necessarily abduct the scapulae especially for people using the whole 'retract the shoulderblades' kind of benching.
[QUOTE=Tyciol;649182483]Question: due to most people (including myself) having a complete lack of muscle awareness in regard to things like the serratus anterior and pec minor, I am wondering, are people saying that pull-overs work the SA due to feeling something in the arm pit and assuming that's what is doing it?
I ask because from what I've read about the functions that the serratus anterior does (scapular protraction/abduction, preventing winging, upward rotation, slight elevation) I don't understand what aspect of pull-overs would work this muscle.
[url]http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/SerratusAnterior.html[/url]
Is there a function of this muscle I am not aware of? Did ExRx miss out on something? Is there a movement or stabilization aspect of the serratus not explained on Wikipedia?
I'd like to educate myself if this is the case, because I had thought pull-overs were an exercise for the sternal pec major and the lats. Is there an article which explains how this muscle does the pullover work? My imagination isn't grasping it, thus retaining skepticism.
These don't necessarily abduct the scapulae especially for people using the whole 'retract the shoulderblades' kind of benching.[/QUOTE]
dumbbell pullovers supposedly work chest, lats, and serratus.
I prefer to do straight arm pull downs myself.
[IMG]http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr288/jdelellis111/pullov.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=BDiamond;649195993]I prefer to do straight arm pull downs myself.[/QUOTE]
^
SAPD > pullovers for activating the serratus.
Straight arm pull downs, dumbbell/barbull pullovers, and boxing (kind just an extra not really bodybuilding)
Try Serratus Shrugs. These are also called reverse shrugs that can be done at a dip station. Keep your arms stiff, drop down a few inches with your arms straight and "shrug" your body back to the top. Small range of motion, but you're using almost entirely your scapula contraction to move.
Serratus crunch and cable wood chops.
[QUOTE=JohnnyD111;649202633][IMG]http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr288/jdelellis111/pullov.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
What is that movement called ? "DB Pullover" ?
Doesn't hitting a heavy bag develop this. Maybe I am confused.
Richard
[QUOTE=Reef58;649386713]Doesn't hitting a heavy bag develop this. Maybe I am confused.
Richard[/QUOTE]
i'd figure using weights would be more beneficial.
[QUOTE=ZBoyers;649189273]dumbbell pullovers supposedly work chest, lats, and serratus.[/QUOTE]I know that, that wasn't the question. I'm not disputing chest/lats. Clearly they both have humeral extensor functions. Disputing the serratus: why do we think it works this muscle when apparently none of its actions are happening?
[QUOTE=JohnnyD111;649202633][IMG]http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr288/jdelellis111/pullov.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Someone highlighting the muscle in an illustration of the movement isn't an argument in favour of it working during it. Brb highlighting quads for pec deck.
[QUOTE=BDiamond;649195993]I prefer to do straight arm pull downs myself.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=CharH06;649246283]^SAPD > pullovers for activating the serratus.[/QUOTE]Same question about pull-downs too: why do we think these work the serratus? Please explain how the muscle works to perform these movements. What is its function?
[QUOTE=Epiphany43;649270053]Try Serratus Shrugs. These are also called reverse shrugs that can be done at a dip station. Keep your arms stiff, drop down a few inches with your arms straight and "shrug" your body back to the top. Small range of motion, but you're using almost entirely your scapula contraction to move.[/QUOTE]This is a movement for the lower trapezius, a scapular depressor. The upper seratus is actually a weak scapular elevator.
So you're more likely to hit the SA with the shrugs you do for your upper traps and levator scapulae, not reverse shrugs, which is an excellent move for hitting the lower traps, pec minor, pec major and lats.
Do you have information on who named these "serratus shrugs"? I'd like them to explain why they think the serratus works here.
To elaborate guys, take a look at a picture of the way the fibers run in the SA vs. the pec minor:
[url]http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/SerratusAnterior.html[/url]
[url]http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisMinor.html[/url]
The SA runs from the scapulae UP. The PM runs from the scapulae DOWN. These muscles are both protractors and stabilize the scapulae against the thoracic wall, but their functions in up/down movements are entirely different.
The Serratus Anterior upwardly rotates and elevates. The pec minor downwardly rotates and depresses.
I think a lot of the people thinking they feel the SA working during pullovers and lower trap shrugs are actually feeling the pec minor and getting the two mixed up.
[QUOTE=Reef58;649386713]Doesn't hitting a heavy bag develop this. Maybe I am confused. Richard[/QUOTE]It can, the SA has actually been called the "boxer's muscle" at times. It explodes the scapulae forward and is a big power generator. Boxers are known for having well developed ones, so hitting the heavy bag can certainly target the SA, along with explosive forward pushing movements where the scapulae are free to abduct/protract (ie not the bench press because people keep them drawn back in that).
[QUOTE=ZBoyers;649455613]i'd figure using weights would be more beneficial.[/QUOTE]Both can be beneficial. People are much more likely to develop the muscle with punching than they are doing improper movements like pullovers which probably don't target the serratus at all.
Doing push-ups with a scapular protraction at the end works the SA...It's a pretty subtle movement at the end, but it hits it...I also had to do a lot of rotator cuff and scapular stabilization exercises for a shoulder injury, and just lying on your back with a dumbbell raised in the air with a straight arm, just lifting the shoulder blades off the ground/bench a few inches works the SA...These are pretty simple, but even just doing these has definitely helped me
[QUOTE=Tyciol;649941933]Someone highlighting the muscle in an illustration of the movement isn't an argument in favour of it working during it. Brb highlighting quads for pec deck.
Same question about pull-downs too: why do we think these work the serratus? Please explain how the muscle works to perform these movements. What is its function?
[/QUOTE]
the serratus is used in the protraction of the scapula and also the rotation of the shoulder girdle towards the body.
I think Tyciol just likes debates.
The bottom line is that training the serratus really isn't that necessary, but if you must, try the exercises suggested in the thread. Or read every textbook ever made on the subject like tyciol has, and argue everyone into a diabetic coma of boredom through the sweet nectar of your knowledge on the human anatomy.
[QUOTE=CharH06;649953383]the serratus is used in the protraction of the scapula[/quote]True: and neither the straight-arm pulldown or the pull over involve forces which push the scapulae into retraction which would be counter by protractive forces. Especially in the case of pulldowns because the cable is pulling the bar AWAY from you. You would be using retractor muscles while standing simply to keep from your arms being pulled forward.
[QUOTE=CharH06;649953383]the rotation of the shoulder girdle towards the body.[/QUOTE]Could you be more specific about what this means? "The body" is kinda vague here. The shoulder girdle rotates around the body in either case. Adduction/retraction is toward the spine, abduction/protraction is toward the sternum. Downward rotation is towards hips, upward rotation towards head, roughly. By 'rotation towards body' were you talking about upward rotation like in an overhead press, or some kind of other function I've not mentioned?
[QUOTE=brudman;649956993]I think Tyciol just likes debates.[/quote]I like them, but it's not 'just' that. I like to think about how muscles work, and based on what's been written about what the muscle does in regard to scapulothoracic movement, I don't get how it would work in a pullover. Arguing that it doesn't is the best way to get someone to come along and explain how this works so I can learn how, if that's the case.
[QUOTE=brudman;649956993]Or read every textbook ever made on the subject like tyciol has, and argue everyone into a diabetic coma of boredom through the sweet nectar of your knowledge on the human anatomy.[/QUOTE]Actually the serratus anterior hasn't come up much in books. I'm basing this solely upon the Gray-based description on Wikipedia and ExRx's profile. Hardly a lot of information. It seems to conflict with pullovers.
[url]http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/PectoralSternal/DBPullover.html[/url]
Take a look, pec minor yes, serratus, not so much.
Course that site could be wrong. I just want to find out who is right and why.
^ downwards towards hips. Im not 100% sure on this subject but i recall seeing sum EMG studies that showed a high rate of serratus activation on the straight arm cable pulldowns.
Skeptical of these studies then, how was their peer review? ExRx describes the complete opposite of movement towards hips. Based on illustrations of the muscles, I agree with them, it doesn't look like it would pull the scapulae down, but rather up.
I wish we had more pictures available for the muscle from various sources, I think it might clear it up better.