Growing on 5 reps or less....surprised plateau breaker for new growth.

Just an 'food for thought' thread. You constantly hear that 'mass' is built with rep ranges of 8-12 and strength is sub 5.

I changed the focus of my training almost 8 months ago to more powerlifting based. In this time I have done no more then 5 reps on all my major compounds and working 5/3/1 rep ranges. I have also dropped most of my isolation work. (not that I did a lot before, but now even less).

To give some background, my arms have always been one of my better developed bodyparts, but they had stalled out a long while back and settled at just over 18.5" and stayed there.

I finished my workout today and just for the heck of it, I measured them and they were a full 19"! I was floored!

I am just surprised at achieving hypertrophy using primary set of 5 or less ONLY (AND dropping most iso work). You hear it drilled over and over that size is 8-12 rep range. And, I have not been training for "size" for quite some time.

I also thought that I had about hit the limit on my arm growth....even though I was no longer 100% nattie. While this may change the rules of growth, I really thought I had plateaued and seen just about all the growth I could see. At least that is what I had observed with my more "bodybuilding" type training. I was surly not expecting size growth given my style of training. (more powerlifting based now).

Just shows there are no absolutes in mass growth. Even I was surprised by this one though. But then I have ALWAYS believed that an increase in strength over time (provided you are eating enough) will result in growth.

Just throwing it out there.

I grew on 5 reps. Now running my second programme more 8-10 range but I am going back on starrs 5x5 in a month or so . It will be interesting to see if I can pack some size on with it

[QUOTE=induced_drag;1126486943]Just an 'food for thought' thread. You constantly hear that 'mass' is built with rep ranges of 8-12 and strength is sub 5.

I changed the focus of my training almost 8 months ago to more powerlifting based. In this time I have done no more then 5 reps on all my major compounds and working 5/3/1 rep ranges. I have also dropped most of my isolation work. (not that I did a lot before, but now even less).

To give some background, my arms have always been one of my better developed bodyparts, but they had stalled out a long while back and settled at just over 18.5" and stayed there.

I finished my workout today and just for the heck of it, I measured them and they were a full 19"! I was floored!

I am just surprised at achieving hypertrophy using primary set of 5 or less ONLY (AND dropping most iso work). You hear it drilled over and over that size is 8-12 rep range. And, I have not been training for "size" for quite some time.

I also thought that I had about hit the limit on my arm growth....even though I was no longer 100% nattie. While this may change the rules of growth, I really thought I had plateaued and seen just about all the growth I could see. At least that is what I had observed with my more "bodybuilding" type training. I was surly not expecting size growth given my style of training. (more powerlifting based now).

Just shows there are no absolutes in mass growth. Even I was surprised by this one though. But then I have ALWAYS believed that an increase in strength over time (provided you are eating enough) will result in growth.

Just throwing it out there.[/QUOTE]

Not 100% nay. May be to do with the size?

Often, just a change in training rep schemes can spur added growth. Whether it be down or up. Just my two cents from a short fat guy...

[QUOTE=Mattshaw1988;1126489903]Not 100% nay. May be to do with the size?[/QUOTE]

I do not think that is a factor as that has not changed from when I was doing 'bodybuilding' yet I still was plateaued for some time prior to switching to powerlifting.

[QUOTE=djflex;1126490383]Often, just a change in training rep schemes can spur added growth. Whether it be down or up. Just my two cents from a short fat guy...[/QUOTE]

I thin you might be 100% right. I was just really not expecting it AT ALL. Kinda shocking.

I don't see why it should be that shocking. If you are getting stronger over time, and eating to support growth, I think you can grow in any rep range.

Oly lifters keep the reps pretty low and those guys/girls are often well developed.

People can argue on what's optimal, but I think strength gain + food + time = growth.

I think you will gain mass on just about any rep range given enough intensity and food. Changing up what you're used to never hurts though.

What does your routine look like these days sir?

I usually have a 3 to 4 months winter cycle of lower rep strength work. Kinda putting size on hold while I build strength with the ultimate goal of using more weight for reps and sets achieving greater muscle gain in the long run. The idea being come spring time I will be stronger using more weight in the more accepted muscle building rep ranges.

My goal is just to get stronger in whatever range I am working in and the size seems to follow.

BTW, lurker of many of your threads, always interesting.

I never do more than 3 reps on any working sets

So many people see low rep ranges, and automatically equate low volume. I was guilty of this. Certainly not the case. I think that was a mental block to me early on. Really seems more people just make up for it with more sets and or frequency. Sounds ridiculous to type such a moron level statement now. But that's where I was, and think there are more people stuck there than looking back going, "Derp!"

I just wasn't open to it at first, it wasn't in magazines much back when they were the source.

[QUOTE=EjnarKolinkar;1126518273]So many people see low rep ranges, and automatically equate low volume. I was guilty of this. Certainly not the case. I think that was a mental block to me early on. Really seems more people just make up for it with more sets and or frequency. Sounds ridiculous to type such a moron level statement now. But that's where I was, and think there are more people stuck there than looking back going, "Derp!"

I just wasn't open to it at first, it wasn't in magazines much back when they were the source.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I've seen several programs that were 8x3 or waves of lower rep ranges. Total volume is greater than is traditionally thought. I've read that the optimal hypertrophy rep range is 50-100 (no source to back up) so it makes sense

ID...19 inch guns????..sheet that's bigger than my 15 year old daughter's waist!

U Deee Man!

[QUOTE=induced_drag;1126486943]Just an 'food for thought' thread. You constantly hear that 'mass' is built with rep ranges of 8-12 and strength is sub 5.

[/QUOTE]

What we constantly hear is wrong. As others have said you will grow on any rep range as long as there is a surplus involved. It's really that simple.

[QUOTE=induced_drag;1126486943]Just an 'food for thought' thread. You constantly hear that 'mass' is built with rep ranges of 8-12 .[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I never heard that when I first got into lifting. Nor did I hear that you should train body parts more than once a week.

When I first got into it, low reps, high volume (meaning 10-20 sets for one body part, once a week).

These days I hear do 8-12 rep range with lower volume hitting body parts twice a week. If it works for people, then great.

I tried that but after just a couple of weeks my joints felt stiff and sore. I also felt kinda run down. Could have been the way I was doing it, but at any rate I'm back hitting each body part hard once a week now.

I'm natural, and my goals are more strength, more mass. Low reps seem to work best for me at least. I'm not a competitive lifter of any kind, however, nor have I ever been.

I'm saying this not because I think that any method is "wrong."

It's just that some people teach that their approach is gospel and the be all, end all of lifting and often times it's just not true.

From now on, I'm doing whatever works best for my goals while keeping my joints intact.

How effective would a split routine be that combined low reps (5) for compound exercised with higher reps (8-12) for the isolation exercises? Would using low reps for the compounds allow you to use a heavier weight than if you were training in the 8-12 range for the same exercise?

Or does a routine need to be based on either one or the other?

No idea, just asking the question out of genuine curiosity.

[QUOTE=BigJ66;1126697383]How effective would a split routine be that combined low reps (5) for compound exercised with higher reps (8-12) for the isolation exercises? Would using low reps for the compounds allow you to use a heavier weight than if you were training in the 8-12 range for the same exercise?

Or does a routine need to be based on either one or the other?

No idea, just asking the question out of genuine curiosity.[/QUOTE]

Low Reps = More Weight + More Sets
High Reps = Less Weight + Less Sets
For instance, in a 5x5 I think it's 75-80% of your max(I forget which).

When I do 5 reps on a squat, I do it around 260. When I want to hit 12 reps I reduce the weight to around 200lbs.

I just started Sheiko 29. I'll be curious if I gain size with it.

Any change will help. Someone mentioned doing sets of 8x3 (eight sets of three reps). Doing heavy weight (relative, I know) and taking less time to rest between sets can spur growth. I've done it myself. It's hard and it hurts, but it works. There are no absolutes. The only absolute is that you should do what works for you and who cares what the so-called 'experts' say?

[QUOTE=BigJ66;1126697383]How effective would a split routine be that combined low reps (5) for compound exercised with higher reps (8-12) for the isolation exercises? Would using low reps for the compounds allow you to use a heavier weight than if you were training in the 8-12 range for the same exercise?

Or does a routine need to be based on either one or the other?

No idea, just asking the question out of genuine curiosity.[/QUOTE]

There are programs like this and I ran a modified version of PHAT for the better part of the last three years. I made some progress with it and keep coming back to it although I believe it is important to try other programs etc. I think about doing 531 but I'm going to dance with the girl I brought to the dance until I lose the fat from my last bulk.
for more info on PHAT go to [url]http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html[/url]

ID what was your diet like during this time? It's hard to keep up with you, you stopped tracking, did your fast etc, seems like you were all over. Your calves looked pretty lean but mine stay lean and bird like while my belly gets soft. Obviously you were in a surplus for some time. Anymore details?

That's great ID. I found the same to be true for myself. My arms are not 19" but they did grow as well in the 5 rep range when doing a lot of compound exercises. I dont do very many isolation exercises either and rarely workout my arms directly. I decided 6 months ago to try this out and it has worked. I am sure , as in all things, it will stall out but as was stated I think it was totally due to eating enough and switching things up

In on brag thread about having 19" arms.

:D:D:D


Seriously, I doubt any other regulars on this forum are even within an inch of that, at least not being relatively lean as you, ID.

I too have seen arm growth with 5-rep compounds in the last 5 months, even while doing next-to-nothing in the way of arm isolation work. Of course I'm only a hair over 15", nowhere near 19.

I am surprised that people are surprised that a 5x5 will make you grow. Seriously.

Most 5x5 programs are built with progression as the key component. Progression is the key for strength and size. Doing the same weight over and over again in the same rep range is not progression, it is toning!

Longtime fan of the 5x5 programs (Especially Starr's) and when my son is ready to start lifting, I will steer him towards the 5x5s...

If you measured your arms just after training they measure bigger due to the fact they were pumped up where as the 18.5 measurement was taken when your arms were cold.

So out of interest were both measurements taken when your arms were pumped ie after training or cold as that's the only way to be sure that they have in fact grown ?

I'm hoping they have grown cus i'm following a 5x5 routine myself :)

Hey ID
Is that growth you speak of across the board ?
I know for me there's a big difference as far as new growth, legs no problem, arms big problemi.

[QUOTE=tobymax123;1127036283]
Seriously, I doubt any other regulars on this forum are even within an inch of that, at least not being relatively lean as you, ID.
[/QUOTE]

Ahem... I beg your pardon?

[QUOTE=TouaregV8;1127364653]Ahem... I beg your pardon?[/QUOTE]

Mr softball biceps has arrived.

[QUOTE=BigJ66;1126697383]How effective would a split routine be that combined low reps (5) for compound exercised with higher reps (8-12) for the isolation exercises? Would using low reps for the compounds allow you to use a heavier weight than if you were training in the 8-12 range for the same exercise?

Or does a routine need to be based on either one or the other?

No idea, just asking the question out of genuine curiosity.[/QUOTE]

I believe most of Wendler's templates for assistance work in the 5/3/1 program are in the higher rep range. Most of my assistance work, I try to get between 8 to 12 reps.

Seems I am not alone. Good to hear, and was surprised to see this. But like anything.....no matter how long you are at this, there is always something to learn.

[QUOTE=Guinea-pig;1127328863]Hey ID
Is that growth you speak of across the board ?
I know for me there's a big difference as far as new growth, legs no problem, arms big problemi.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure. I have not really been paying attention to trying to 'get bigger'. I stopped keeping measurement logs...etc. I feel I look bigger, but was not really making an issue of it. Like I said, I just pulled out the tape on a whim and was surprised to see significant growth. Especially since I had been stagnant for so long prior.

[QUOTE=TouaregV8;1127364653]Ahem... I beg your pardon?[/QUOTE]

Yea....no doubt. You got some big f'n arms man!.... Crazy big! Cool thing, is you are equally developed all over....so much respect!

[QUOTE=induced_drag;1126486943]Just a 'food for thought' thread. You constantly hear that 'mass' is built with rep ranges of 8-12 and strength is sub 5.

I changed the focus of my training almost 8 months ago to more powerlifting based. In this time I have done no more then 5 reps on all my major compounds and working 5/3/1 rep ranges. I have also dropped most of my isolation work. (not that I did a lot before, but now even less).

To give some background, my arms have always been one of my better developed bodyparts, but they had stalled out a long while back and settled at just over 18.5" and stayed there.

I finished my workout today and just for the heck of it, I measured them and they were a full 19"! I was floored!

I am just surprised at achieving hypertrophy using primary set of 5 or less ONLY (AND dropping most iso work). You hear it drilled over and over that size is 8-12 rep range. And, I have not been training for "size" for quite some time.

I also thought that I had about hit the limit on my arm growth....even though I was no longer 100% nattie. While this may change the rules of growth, I really thought I had plateaued and seen just about all the growth I could see. At least that is what I had observed with my more "bodybuilding" type training. I was surly not expecting size growth given my style of training. (more powerlifting based now).

Just shows there are no absolutes in mass growth. Even I was surprised by this one though. But then I have ALWAYS believed that an increase in strength over time (provided you are eating enough) will result in growth.

Just throwing it out there.[/QUOTE]

edited out