Cost No Object Machines and Free Weights, the Best of the Best

[url]http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/sgd/3579215271.html[/url]

Looks nice.

My Hammer Iso Lateral Super incline sold today. Have to go to that pallet place up the street because the guy (gym owner) is located in London. $411.00 shipped from my Door to Port of London. This is disasembled and compacted as much as possible. Nonetheless excellent freitght price. Sold it for $900.00 (cost $2000+ shipped)

(I took it off the recommended list as well during the last update, it simply is not good enough to even be a runner up... even with the modification to adjust the back pad angle. I really liked the Hammer iso lateral military press plate loaded, but I think they made some changes with the super incline. The bottom line is that it does not work for an incline press, it is too steep an angle without the pad angle mod. For shoulders, there are so many better machines. The old Hammer Iso lateral military press is probably decent, but hasn't been made in many years. They still have the iso lateral military at a golds gym down the street. I want to go to that gym just becasue it has been 2 years and they have some good old equipment I haven't used in a while. It is great to go 'full circle' and go back to machines you haven't used in a while to put it all in perspective with all of these 'cost no object' pieces)

Anyway, MAPCARGO Global Logistics seems great. I recommend them so far... great service and great international frieght price.

[QUOTE=HealthNutMD;1020236713]Seems like the cost no object choice would be Curve XL and an ELG beside it. Throw in a Cybex Arc trainer for good measure.[/QUOTE]

Well the ELG is a definite COST NO OBJECT.... rolling in at a "bling bling" $29,900 for individual unit pricing, standard without options.... WOW. Now this unit goes up to 25mph with a 35% incline (5% decline) and weighs over 1,600 lbs, pure and utter beast. For obvious reasons, you're looking at 220 electric only. Needless to say this unit is probably only used in top athletic training facilities.

The Curve vs Curve XL really depends on your leg span. The XL is recommended for longer stride individuals. To get it (and keep it) moving you are supposed to hit that front curve part to let gravity take over. Curve units are lighter than powered units (curve is only 245 lbs) and obviously don't use electricity. As far as a normal average 6'0" guy, I'd tend to believe the Curve is perfect, XL being more for basketball type 6'4" and taller guys.

[youtube]Ds5tmk7Xg-E[/youtube]

Interesting video of the Miami University (in Ohio...) football training room. Outfitted with rogers machines and some Avenger leg presses. Pretty good tour though. He goes into detail on the different pieces and how they work / play into the training regimen. He speaks very highly of the lat pulldown from Rogers and the Avengers different seating arrangements. Also seems to enjoy the squat unit. Well he kind of likes everything now that I think about it.

[QUOTE=OutKlast;1021318363][youtube]Ds5tmk7Xg-E[/youtube]

Interesting video of the Miami University (in Ohio...) football training room. Outfitted with rogers machines and some Avenger leg presses. Pretty good tour though. He goes into detail on the different pieces and how they work / play into the training regimen. He speaks very highly of the lat pulldown from Rogers and the Avengers different seating arrangements. Also seems to enjoy the squat unit. Well he kind of likes everything now that I think about it.[/QUOTE]

Outklast,

Nice find....and what is there not to like. First class equipment. I like the detachable pullup feature on the half rack.

[QUOTE=rpark;1021310033]Well the ELG is a definite COST NO OBJECT.... rolling in at a "bling bling" $29,900 for individual unit pricing, standard without options.... WOW. Now this unit goes up to 25mph with a 35% incline (5% decline) and weighs over 1,600 lbs, pure and utter beast. For obvious reasons, you're looking at 220 electric only. Needless to say this unit is probably only used in top athletic training facilities.

The Curve vs Curve XL really depends on your leg span. The XL is recommended for longer stride individuals. To get it (and keep it) moving you are supposed to hit that front curve part to let gravity take over. Curve units are lighter than powered units (curve is only 245 lbs) and obviously don't use electricity. As far as a normal average 6'0" guy, I'd tend to believe the Curve is perfect, XL being more for basketball type 6'4" and taller guys.[/QUOTE]

Rpark,

Good info. I figured that the ELG would cost a pretty penny. GSA pricing brings it down to 25 grand.

[QUOTE=OutKlast;1021318363]

Interesting video of the Miami University (in Ohio...) football training room. Outfitted with rogers machines and some Avenger leg presses. Pretty good tour though. He goes into detail on the different pieces and how they work / play into the training regimen. He speaks very highly of the lat pulldown from Rogers and the Avengers different seating arrangements. Also seems to enjoy the squat unit. Well he kind of likes everything now that I think about it.[/QUOTE]

That's Paul Hacker I have had some good conversations with him. He went to Michigan state and played football at the time they had all almost all the avengers. He is the main reason I got my avenger sholder press he highly revomended it . He was also a fan of the row and pullover. He liked the avenger leg presses so much he took them with him from the last school that he coached at to Miami . Great coach very knowlagable and loves to train .

[quote=tlynch777;1021334913]that's paul hacker i have had some good conversations with him. He went to michigan state and played football at the time they had all almost all the avengers. He is the main reason i got my avenger sholder press he highly revomended it . He was also a fan of the row and pullover. He liked the avenger leg presses so much he took them with him from the last school that he coached at to miami . Great coach very knowlagable and loves to train .[/quote]

I was going to ask if it was MSU as the same people that made that video made some videos at MSU. But I answered my own question when I found an older video with him at MSU. The MSU facility looks quite nice 16,000 sq ft football gym with power lift, rogers, hammer strength, and avenger stuff. It is also nice to see a gym made up of "preferred" pieces as opposed to some facilities that kind of look like someone just picked some pieces out from Company A's catalog and called it a day.

Interesting full 30 minute strength seminar with Ken Mannie from MSU. Crazy volume/effort that they go through. Jumping around from freeweight squats, rogers hip press, HS mid row, Power lift leg curl, Rogers squat pro, curling, benching... crazy. I'd be puking all over myself 10 minutes into his program.

[youtube]vtxsW8yydac[/youtube]

Also interesting uses of the iso-lateral functions on the hip press and squat pro from rogers.

Re: Atlantis pec/delt machine

I'd like to add that this machine might not be adequate for some. I am close to recovering from a shoulder injury (maybe 90%), an I was able to push 265 lbs on the pec deck 4-5 reps at the end of my chest workout. Honestly I was feeling pretty strong, but I'm fully aware my chest is no where near the strongest anyway shape or form... And I'm 3 plates or 45 lbs away from the max weight.

Of course I don't see any reason they couldn't add weights. Add a few more plates and adjust the cable and it'd probably be golden!

[QUOTE=rpark;1021447903]Re: Atlantis pec/delt machine

I'd like to add that this machine might not be adequate for some. I am close to recovering from a shoulder injury (maybe 90%), an I was able to push 265 lbs on the pec deck 4-5 reps at the end of my chest workout. Honestly I was feeling pretty strong, but I'm fully aware my chest is no where near the strongest anyway shape or form... And I'm 3 plates or 45 lbs away from the max weight.

Of course I don't see any reason they couldn't add weights. Add a few more plates and adjust the cable and it'd probably be golden![/QUOTE]

What kind of rep range? I feel like something like a pec/delt machine is reasonably high maybe nothing less than 12 reps per set.

[QUOTE=rpark;1021447903]Re: Atlantis pec/delt machine

I'd like to add that this machine might not be adequate for some. I am close to recovering from a shoulder injury (maybe 90%), an I was able to push 265 lbs on the pec deck 4-5 reps at the end of my chest workout. Honestly I was feeling pretty strong, but I'm fully aware my chest is no where near the strongest anyway shape or form... And I'm 3 plates or 45 lbs away from the max weight.

Of course I don't see any reason they couldn't add weights. Add a few more plates and adjust the cable and it'd probably be golden![/QUOTE]At my old gym there were alot of medium sized guys that had no problem doing the 325lb. stack. By placing your feet together, you should find it alot more difficult. Ha Ha, you are just a beast rpark.

[QUOTE=deadwoodgregg;1021472783]At my old gym there were alot of medium sized guys that had no problem doing the 325lb. stack. By placing your feet together, you should find it alot more difficult. Ha Ha, you are just a beast rpark.[/QUOTE]
Doing the whole stack seems to be a common theme with pec machines. I can't imagine why they don't use bigger cams on those things. I mean, even if the goal is saving money, a bigger cam and smaller weight stack is surely cheaper. Or if faced with a choice of a pec machine where they can do 100 pounds, and one where they can do 200 pounds, will people always take the one where they can do 200 pounds because it makes them feel stronger? Or am I missing some legitimate reason? The only limit I'm thinking of is you don't want them so big you have to push the axes of rotation wider than your shoulder joints, but that's still a pretty big cam.

Nice vids OutKlast. The way the he was using the seated squat pro in the second video is very similar to the way you would use the old Nautilus Duo-Squat.

[QUOTE=Maluket;1021481943]Doing the whole stack seems to be a common theme with pec machines. I can't imagine why they don't use bigger cams on those things. I mean, even if the goal is saving money, a bigger cam and smaller weight stack is surely cheaper. Or if faced with a choice of a pec machine where they can do 100 pounds, and one where they can do 200 pounds, will people always take the one where they can do 200 pounds because it makes them feel stronger? Or am I missing some legitimate reason? The only limit I'm thinking of is you don't want them so big you have to push the axes of rotation wider than your shoulder joints, but that's still a pretty big cam.[/QUOTE]Remember that it is a dual exercise machine, that can also be used ISO, where one exercise (rear delt) uses about half of the weight that the other (pec) would use. But, yes, I understand what you are saying. I have always viewed this style of pec work as a finisher movement. Alot of experienced guys won't use the entire stack but concentrate more on a slow solid contraction. Cable flyes gets an even better contraction by allowing the user the ability to cross the hands whereas this machine can only be used until the handles touch.

1) Great Videos OutKlast! Nice to see the love for the Hammer Strength Mid Row at MSU--they need that chest pad Mod I did. I still love the Hammer Mid row (but must have that beefy chest pad backing!!) Nice overview on many of the best of the best machines.

2) Strength training the neck will not prevent concussions, its the biggest myth some strength coaches seem to be perpetuating.

3) ELG is incredible, but yes, I need to find somebody with a GSA account or some way to get a deal on that. Either way, it is gong to have to be a future item. Curve, ELG, and a Cybex Arc Trainer sound like a nice trifecta of cardio equipment.

4) Atlantis Pec fly/rear delt has the heaviest weight stack I am aware of, but depending on the cable/cam physics of other machines, hard to say how different the actual weights compare. Strive has that adjustable cam on their pec fly rear delt which is probably very useful. I chose the Atlantis simple because of the heaviest weight stack, hydraulic seat, and small (perfect) sized back/chest pad. That being said, the Strive Cam is no doubt advantageous. The Strive cam settings 1 and 3 could have more 'weight' do to the cam or pulley physics--although the weight stack is 265 on the Strive (310 on the Atlantis). I guess I'll find out soon, the Atlantis delivery arrives tomorrow or Thursday to the distributor--then delivery to me has to be set up.

[QUOTE=HealthNutMD;1021533553]1) Great Videos OutKlast! Nice to see the love for the Hammer Strength Mid Row at MSU--they need that chest pad Mod I did. I still love the Hammer Mid row (but must have that beefy chest pad backing!!) Nice overview on many of the best of the best machines.

2) Strength training the neck will not prevent concussions, its the biggest myth some strength coaches seem to be perpetuating.

3) ELG is incredible, but yes, I need to find somebody with a GSA account or some way to get a deal on that. Either way, it is gong to have to be a future item. Curve, ELG, and a Cybex Arc Trainer sound like a nice trifecta of cardio equipment.

4) Atlantis Pec fly/rear delt has the heaviest weight stack I am aware of, but depending on the cable/cam physics of other machines, hard to say how different the actual weights compare. Strive has that adjustable cam on their pec fly rear delt which is probably very useful. I chose the Atlantis simple because of the heaviest weight stack, hydraulic seat, and small (perfect) sized back/chest pad. That being said, the Strive Cam is no doubt advantageous. The Strive cam settings 1 and 3 could have more 'weight' do to the cam or pulley physics--although the weight stack is 265 on the Strive (310 on the Atlantis). I guess I'll find out soon, the Atlantis delivery arrives tomorrow or Thursday to the distributor--then delivery to me has to be set up.[/QUOTE]

If I could make a suggestion, if I were you I wouldn't bother with the ELG, I'd get a woodway 4front or Desmo. Either machine are still way better than anything that any other manufacturer makes, and best of the best in my opinion. They don't take up as much space as the ELG and they are half the cost. In my mind, cost to performance is greater than in the ELG.

[QUOTE=irongym;1021583113]If I could make a suggestion, if I were you I wouldn't bother with the ELG, I'd get a woodway 4front or Desmo. Either machine are still way better than anything that any other manufacturer makes, and best of the best in my opinion. They don't take up as much space as the ELG and they are half the cost. In my mind, cost to performance is greater than in the ELG.[/QUOTE]

I'm not buying any cardio equipment anytime soon... I was just fantasizing of the trifecta...

Packing the disassembled pieces of this Hammer Super incline on this pallet is a bitch.

[QUOTE=OutKlast;1021426533]

[youtube]vtxsW8yydac[/youtube]

[/QUOTE]


At 12:26 he clearly says, (Just as I told you all the People at USC said) "What is your favorite Pendulum leg Press" Guess what, they ALL prefer the Pendulum Hip Press over the Seated Squat Pro. I'm not saying the seated Squat Pro is not good, but I have head some not so complimentary reviews of it. All I am trying to say is that if you have to pick between the HIP PRESS and the Seated Squat Pro, all I have heard is exactly what has been said in this video. That doesn't mean personal preference is right or wrong, but the opinion in this video is the same opinion I keep running into. By no means am I putting down the Seated Squat Pro, I'm just pointing out the opinion of which Pendulum leg press most people seem to prefer. I plan on spending some more time on the Seated Squat Pro in the near future.

By the way, that video is excellent... Excellent coach. Liking the segment on the Hammer Mid row as well. I still have yet to find a mid row I like better. In my opinion, the Pendulum row is second (maybe a close second) to the Hammer mid row (with the modified chest pad), although the Pendulum Row is so small, I'll probably pick it up for ****s and giggles. Atlantis does not make a good plate loaded mid row, Power-Lift's version of the mid row looks sub-par, etc.. I just wish the Avenger mid row had some divergence like the Hammer mid row. I used Strives plate loaded mid row briefly at Used Gym equipment.com, but did not have enough plates to load it up to adequately demo. As far as mid rows go, I have yet to see anything want to make me replace the modified Hammer Mid Row... I thought for sure I would find something over the last 3 years that would outperform the Hammer Mid Row, but if it is out there, I haven't found it yet.

[QUOTE=OutKlast;1021426533]
Interesting full 30 minute strength seminar with Ken Mannie from MSU.

Also interesting uses of the iso-lateral functions on the hip press and squat pro from rogers.[/QUOTE]

The seated squat pro should be right up on the best of the best list for sure. Hands down that and the avenger . It's not a piece that you can just demo. You need to experiance some good sets on it to really appreciate it. It was one of the best investments I have made and in my opinion one of the best leg press made today. You know I love the avenger especially how well its built along with adjustable seat options and sholder pads.I can only emagine If the seated squat pro had the seat of the avenger with lumbar support. I use a pad on mine to make it a bit more comfortable when going heavy . I will be forever thankful to tyler hobson for creating this master piece. Its the one and only leg press that i can use after 3 knee surgerys with absolutly no pain. You can do so much more with this seated squat pro its the Lamborghini*of all leg presses.

[QUOTE=irongym;1021583113]If I could make a suggestion, if I were you I wouldn't bother with the ELG, I'd get a woodway 4front or Desmo. Either machine are still way better than anything that any other manufacturer makes, and best of the best in my opinion. They don't take up as much space as the ELG and they are half the cost. In my mind, cost to performance is greater than in the ELG.[/QUOTE]I agree with Irongym on the powered Woodway choices. The Desmo HP has the Desmo size but with features somewhere in between the Desmo and the ELG. I would think that decline must feel weird on a treadmill. Interesting feature for sure.

I do agree that the pec deck is a finishing piece. I usually do drop sets or rest pause sets resulting in 55 total reps to finish out, but this week I wanted to see how much weight I could push. All being said, I think the unit is a solid piece of equipment, and I have no objections as to my own personal usage. I just wanted to make a disclaimer to all those that are stronger than me (a lot). Deadwoodgregg.... medium sized guy? Ouch! (haha)

As far as other Woodway choices, the Desmo is being discontinued either this year or next and is being replaced by the 4front. The 4front looks like a solid unit and has plenty of display options available, one thing a lot of woodway models don't offer (cool displays). The Desmo is currently quoted under 10k, and the 4front is about 10,500 with options pushing easily up over 15k. One unique option of the 4front is the standard incline is 0-15 can be upgraded to an optional 0-25 degree incline for just an extra $600 or even a -3 to 22 degree option for the same price, and the ability to upgrade the speed from a 12.5mph standard to 18mph top speed ($1,800).

Personally I'm torn between the Curve and 4Front, but will likely put off that decision until fall, as I am anxiously awaiting the snow to go away so I can get outside again.

So healthnut or anyone else that's used these leg curls, if you had to have 1 of these 3 which would you pick? Also which ones would be the best price if you know their prices at all?

Star Trac Prone Leg curl A+ (newest version gets demoted to A/A-).
Star Trac Kneeling Leg Curl A+
Atlantis C-107 Standing leg curl

Without any advice I'm leaning towards the kneeling one, I've used kneeling in the past, I think it was a body masters plate loaded but might have been a hammer strength, I can't remember it was 6-8 years ago but I really liked how it worked. I've never used a standing leg curl so I'm not sure about that one at all.

It would be the prone leg curl, because there is no close second prone leg curl for me. I would either get the Flex Fitness version, or the Star Trac version that still have the center part between the legs (as shown on Page 8 or near there where I put pics of mine up).

I love the kneeling leg curl very much, but I could live with the Cybex Plate loaded leg curl if I had to... or a Flex Fitness kneeling leg curl used.

Those are my top two favorite machines because doing hamstrings and leg curls is more important than quads for me. And those are the two best leg curl machines that I have ever used.

The Standing leg curl would be third, and is probably not needed, but that's how much I emphasize hamstrings. As a person who loves to work hamstrings, I have yet to buy a seated curl... I don't see the point. I think if I had to buy a seated curl it would be the Flex Fitness Hamtractor with modified weight stack. Flex Fitness made the best leg curl machines in my opinion. Star Trac kept them the same up until 2012. I do not like the prone redesign biomechanics as much, those ******* geek engineers at Star Track made it more generic... douchebags. Thankfully, I got the best version. I do like the lock and load buttons of the Star Track. The one I got was the best one... right before the change. I don't think they changed the kneeling leg curl.

RPARK owns a Star Trac kneeling leg curl as well.



[img]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3066633&d=1296801072[/img]

So's I've been thinking more about the amount of space my olympic benches take up, how valuable floor space is (I'm in a basement, there is no room for expansion), and how I've never seen all 3 benches used at once.

In an ideal world I would have an adjustable Nebula olympic decline bench (or equivalent), a Forza competition flat bench, and an older Unique (Leisure Lines) adjustable olympic incline bench, just like at Dorian Yates' Temple Gym.

It's easy enough to buy a new Forza bench, any colour, for about $1K plus shipping. Little harder to find the Nebula bench (or equivalent), but doable. As for the older Unique adjustable olympic bench, I've come across 2 on ebay.co.uk in the last 5 years, and neither one would answer my emails. I've contacted Leisure Lines, they answered my initial email but have failed to follow up with any more. I often wonder if my email doesn't end up in spam folders...

I've attached a picture of the original Unique bench that I would, in an ideal world, love to get my hands on. With my space constraints I'm taking a serious look at the Hoist 3 way bench. Another member here has one and really likes it, and I think that I could replace my current oly flat, oly incline, and oly decline with just the Hoist 3 way and the Forza comp flat bench and I've saved a considerable amount of space and added more variety (multi-adjustable angles on the hoist).

Thoughts? [ATTACH=CONFIG]5366313[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5366323[/ATTACH]

Sadly, I'm still leaning towards that Unique bench. I think it's because I find nothing more inspiring then watching Yates in Blood and Guts with those big inclins...

Got the wide grip Mag today:


[img]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5367073&d=1360207577[/img]

Awesome thread, Im slowly going to try to read it all from the start.

Huge respect to you HN for following your dream of getting all this equipment.

Very nice. I was thinking about ordering one of those wide and narrow mags grips from Elitefts.com...

I have gone ahead and ordered a Troy Supracurl bar and Sorinex Axle from Driven Fitness in Edmonton, and tomorrow I will be ordered a T-grip 5' bar. I have a local welder making me a nice 9 hole oly bar holder, so I'll have some room to grow into it.

[QUOTE=HealthNutMD;1021947183]It would be the prone leg curl, because there is no close second prone leg curl for me. I would either get the Flex Fitness version, or the Star Trac version that still have the center part between the legs (as shown on Page 8 or near there where I put pics of mine up).

I love the kneeling leg curl very much, but I could live with the Cybex Plate loaded leg curl if I had to... or a Flex Fitness kneeling leg curl used.

Those are my top two favorite machines because doing hamstrings and leg curls is more important than quads for me. And those are the two best leg curl machines that I have ever used.

The Standing leg curl would be third, and is probably not needed, but that's how much I emphasize hamstrings. As a person who loves to work hamstrings, I have yet to buy a seated curl... I don't see the point. I think if I had to buy a seated curl it would be the Flex Fitness Hamtractor with modified weight stack. Flex Fitness made the best leg curl machines in my opinion. Star Trac kept them the same up until 2012. I do not like the prone redesign biomechanics as much, those ******* geek engineers at Star Track made it more generic... douchebags. Thankfully, I got the best version. I do like the lock and load buttons of the Star Track. The one I got was the best one... right before the change. I don't think they changed the kneeling leg curl.

RPARK owns a Star Trac kneeling leg curl as well.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks dude, I'd probably be ordering straight from star trac so I'm assuming the kneeling would be better than the prone if the redesign is that bad. Either way I can't really do jack squat until my house is done but I gotta replace a crappy broke ass body solid plate loaded leg curl and this time I'm gonna do it right and get a machine that will work great and be way tougher to break lol.

Also curious to see what you think of the mag grips you posted, I've never seen them before but their website has some pretty intriguing info.

[QUOTE=darkfact;1022102703]Thanks dude, I'd probably be ordering straight from star trac so I'm assuming the kneeling would be better than the prone if the redesign is that bad. Either way I can't really do jack squat until my house is done but I gotta replace a crappy broke ass body solid plate loaded leg curl and this time I'm gonna do it right and get a machine that will work great and be way tougher to break lol.

Also curious to see what you think of the mag grips you posted, I've never seen them before but their website has some pretty intriguing info.[/QUOTE]

Well, it is still excellent, but more of an A- than an A++ All I'm saying is that I would track down prior versions, perhaps used. But yes, as far as I know they have not changed the kneeling leg curl... It looks identical. Also, there was nothing to change on he kneeling leg curl. Definitely get the kneeling leg curl next then, you can't go wrong, it is bad ass...

As far as the Mag grips, I really like the mid sized one for cable rows. I just got the large on in today so have no used it yet.