Why does everyone seem to think that being in a catabolic state automatically means your body is breaking down your muscles for gluconeogenesis? I seem to read this about 50x a day
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Why does everyone seem to think that being in a catabolic state automatically means your body is breaking down your muscles for gluconeogenesis? I seem to read this about 50x a day
because it is believed that the body tends to break down muscle before fat. I have always wondered about this too. WHy would the body want to feed on muscle instead of fat. IM not sure good question
It's BB shorthand. The same as people not thinking that fat gain is anabolic.
the body would rather use muscle for energy than fat i think from past readings. can't defend the statement with proof or anything
[QUOTE=tjperez86;283532521]because it is believed that the body tends to break down muscle before fat. I have always wondered about this too. WHy would the body want to feed on muscle instead of fat. IM not sure good question[/QUOTE]
It doesn't. Fat and carbs are the primary sources of energy. The proportion of energy supplied by both sources depends on the intensity of the activity you are doing.
The body has very little capacity to use protein as an energy source. At rest it supplies less than 1% of energy. This can rise with long duration (1 hour+), moderate to high intensity exercise.
[QUOTE=Wowzer;283689381]It doesn't. Fat and carbs are the primary sources of energy. The proportion of energy supplied by both sources depends on the intensity of the activity you are doing.
The body has very little capacity to use protein as an energy source. At rest it supplies less than 1% of energy. This can rise with long duration (1 hour+), moderate to high intensity exercise.[/QUOTE]
This is what I'm thinking.
I don't understand why the body would catabolize muscle assuming your nutrition is good for a couple reasons: (bro science here)
1)Protein is less efficient than fats and carbs (I don't know if this is true, but it seems like it, lol)
2) The muscles are being USED; the 'use it or lose it' principle applies very strongly to our bodies. Why? because this principle is the master of efficiency, and our bodies are masters of efficiency. (it doesn't apply to your penis) When you break your arm and it goes in a cast, you stop using it. 2 months later you get the cast off and guess what? all your muscles are smaller, and your bone density is reduced. I don't think the body is going to break down and reduce something that is not only being used all the time, but is being used WHILE the catabolic state is induced (mostly referring to exercise induced catabolism in this thread) I know this point is insane bro-science but I don't care. It's intuitive nature gives it some kind of value.
3) And most importantly: If your PrePreWO nutrition, and PreWO nutrition are on par, then you should already have an ample amount of free amino acids in your bloodstream. Why would your body need to produce even MORE free amino's by breaking down muscle?
[QUOTE=Opies;283692081]This is what I'm thinking.
I don't understand why the body would catabolize muscle assuming your nutrition is good for a couple reasons: (bro science here)
1)Protein is less efficient than fats and carbs (I don't know if this is true, but it seems like it, lol)[/QUOTE]
True, protein has to be converted into glucose before it can be used to create ATP. The body just does not have many of the enzymes required to do it. Why would the body use muscle (or even free amino acids) when it has kilograms of fat to use?
[QUOTE=Opies;283692081]2) The muscles are being USED; the 'use it or lose it' principle applies very strongly to our bodies. Why? because this principle is the master of efficiency, and our bodies are masters of efficiency. (it doesn't apply to your penis) When you break your arm and it goes in a cast, you stop using it. 2 months later you get the cast off and guess what? all your muscles are smaller, and your bone density is reduced. I don't think the body is going to break down and reduce something that is not only being used all the time, but is being used WHILE the catabolic state is induced (mostly referring to exercise induced catabolism in this thread) I know this point is insane bro-science but I don't care. It's intuitive nature gives it some kind of value.[/QUOTE]
This is true. Particularly of bodybuilders who do large amounts of resistance training which more than compensates for any small amounts of exercise induced catabolism.
[QUOTE=Opies;283692081]3) And most importantly: If your PrePreWO nutrition, and PreWO nutrition are on par, then you should already have an ample amount of free amino acids in your bloodstream. Why would your body need to produce even MORE free amino's by breaking down muscle?[/QUOTE]
True as well. In10City has loads of posts about this exact thing.
[QUOTE=Opies;283692081]This is what I'm thinking.
I don't understand why the body would catabolize muscle assuming your nutrition is good for a couple reasons: (bro science here)
1)Protein is less efficient than fats and carbs (I don't know if this is true, but it seems like it, lol)
2) The muscles are being USED; the 'use it or lose it' principle applies very strongly to our bodies. Why? because this principle is the master of efficiency, and our bodies are masters of efficiency. (it doesn't apply to your penis) When you break your arm and it goes in a cast, you stop using it. 2 months later you get the cast off and guess what? all your muscles are smaller, and your bone density is reduced. I don't think the body is going to break down and reduce something that is not only being used all the time, but is being used WHILE the catabolic state is induced (mostly referring to exercise induced catabolism in this thread) I know this point is insane bro-science but I don't care. It's intuitive nature gives it some kind of value.
3) And most importantly: If your PrePreWO nutrition, and PreWO nutrition are on par, then you should already have an ample amount of free amino acids in your bloodstream. Why would your body need to produce even MORE free amino's by breaking down muscle?[/QUOTE]
1.why would the body catabolize skeletal muscle protein if isocaloric
intake is up to par[no really thats my answer] true it will occur in small amounts your job is to keep this as small as possible[
2.Amino acids are "less efficent" at creating enegry[true] however
enough intake of amino acids [sans carbs] can lead to enegry
creation via gluconeogenisis
3.what?[Im not sure I understand your statement]
4.the body breaks down protein
4a. to create glucose
4.b if aminos are elevated [at a plateau always]- protein breakdown
[QUOTE=LactoseTolerant;283532571]It's BB shorthand. The same as people not thinking that fat gain is anabolic.[/QUOTE]
anabolism is building/adding something to the body created out of smaller molecules. i'm not sure if fat gain would fall under this as generally you don't create more fat cells.
[QUOTE=Seamless;283699291]anabolism is building/adding something to the body created out of smaller molecules. i'm not sure if fat gain would fall under this as generally you don't create more fat cells.[/QUOTE]
fat cells != fat. Fat cells are what hold the actual fat. It does count as anabolism because glucose is made into fat (anabolic) and I think stored fat is different than free fatty acids (this might be false)
[QUOTE=Opies;283531301]Why does everyone seem to think that being in a catabolic state automatically means your body is breaking down your muscles for gluconeogenesis? I seem to read this about 50x a day[/QUOTE]
If you are worried about fat oxidation vs glucose usage/gluconeogenesis think about how fitness figures in:
[url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=111281581[/url]
[QUOTE=Opies;283700101]fat cells != fat. Fat cells are what hold the actual fat. It does count as anabolism because glucose is made into fat (anabolic) and I think stored fat is different than free fatty acids (this might be false)[/QUOTE]
true. not sure on the 2nd one.
I don't understand the science, but i decided I had too much body fat back in late December and started starving myself for 5 weeks...mainly just one meal a day...while continuing to work out as normal.
I did lose some body fat. But it's obvious my body was also feeding on muscle at the same time...and I still have 11 to 13% body fat.
Also, a friend told me that Sumo wrestlers are known to eat only one meal a day, yet they have lots of body fat.
[QUOTE=anti-steroids;283698281]1.why would the body catabolize skeletal muscle protein if isocaloric
intake is up to par[no really thats my answer] true it will occur in small amounts your job is to keep this as small as possible[
2.Amino acids are "less efficent" at creating enegry[true] however
enough intake of amino acids [sans carbs] can lead to enegry
creation via gluconeogenisis
3.what?[Im not sure I understand your statement]
4.the body breaks down protein
4a. to create glucose
4.b if aminos are elevated [at a plateau always]- protein breakdown[/QUOTE]
I didn't really understand some of that but I'll try
1) The body prefers carbs over protein, along with fat. Whether they are isocaloric or not doesn't matter, carbs are metabolically easier for our body to use.
2) It can, but i'm saying the body is not going to use muscle for gluconeogenesis, it it more likely to use fat and free amino acids which are ALREADY in the blood stream
3) refer to the last point
4) why would the body break down proteins if amino acids are already elevated? It has no reason too. If it wants amino acids for gluconeogenesis it already has them
[QUOTE=Al****ame;283704751]Also, a friend told me that Sumo wrestlers are known to eat only one meal a day, yet they have lots of body fat.[/QUOTE]
This seemed amusing as it's a direct contradiction to both what we see here on BB.com with regards to nutrient timing and also physics apparently and is about "how sumo wrestlers get so fat" or something.
This is from e-zine 'expert' Doug King.
"If you want to pack on the fat then just follow the "Sumo Wrestler Fat Gaining Diet"! Let me explain. I am being a little sarcastic in order to get my point across. The way a Sumo wrestler gets so fat is - they purposely starve themselves all day long then eat whatever they want in the evening before going to bed. Because they eat just before going to bed, all of that food turns into fat in their body. While most people want to lose body fat, they want to gain body fat in order to try to have the advantage over the competition in their sport.
I don't know how many times I have heard someone say, "I just don't understand it; I'm only eating twice a day and I'm still gaining weight!" or "I skip breakfast and sometimes lunch and I just can't seem to lose weight!" Well, the reason you can't lose weight is because you are following what I call the Sumo Wrestler Fat Gaining Diet. You see, with eating, it is not how seldom you eat that's important; it's when, how, and what you eat that's important. I hope I can shed some light on the subject in this article that will help you.
The idea that skipping meals is the way to lose weight has been "shattered" over and over again. The opposite is true. To lose body fat, one must put food into his or her body on a regular basis throughout the day. If you will eat the proper ratio of protein, carbohydrates, and fat and you will do this approximately every three hours (not counting sleep time) you will become a human "fat burning machine" so to speak. If you sleep on all that undigested food in your system your body will shut down and store it as fat while you sleep."
Does anyone know just how many kcal a sumo wrestler eats per day? I found numbers like 8k and 10k but nothing definitive. If it is that high, then such high energy intake might be to blame and not the getting fat while sleeping theory all these writers seem to toss around.
yea the getting fat while sleeping is BS and so is only eating once. Its the fact they are taking in 2-3x more calories than they need
[QUOTE=sjarvis77;283717341]sleep."
Does anyone know just how many kcal a sumo wrestler eats per day? I found numbers like 8k and 10k but nothing definitive. If it is that high, then such high energy intake might be to blame and not the getting fat while sleeping theory all these writers seem to toss around.[/QUOTE]
Discovery Channel had a show on SUMO wrestlers and diet a while back, or maybe it was the natgeo channel. Either way they mention in excess of 20,000-25,000 calories per meal. They also said that the majority of the fat sumo wrestlers carried was fat that was stored on top of the muscle and not the normal intramuscular fat and visceral fat normal obese people carry. Apparently their eating habits and training make a big difference in how the weight is held on their bodies.
[QUOTE=Opies;283531301]Why does everyone seem to think that being in a catabolic state automatically means your body is breaking down your muscles for gluconeogenesis? I seem to read this about 50x a day[/QUOTE]
Cortisol is a very catabolic hormone and has been shown to cause protein breakdown and reduce protein synthesis. I'd say the duration of the effect has more to do with it than anything.
Being in a catabolic state for a short time won't hurt much just like being in an anabolic state for a short time will have no real net gain.
You have to understand that body doesn't know you want to be big, and shredded. Its primary goal is to keep all vital functions in normal order. If its satisfied with the current state of affairs its goal is gonna be to try and keep itself in that state, be it 7%BF or 20%. The term is called homeostasis. So now why does it use muscle over fat during excessive workout, when the glycogen reserves are down or no existing. Well if we remember the homeostasis, which we could simply name plain survival, a lot of muscle tends to use a lot of energy. Remember that if we do know that are next meal is in an hour the body does not. Its goal being only to adapt and survive, degrading muscle to aminos and doing the gluconeogenesis provides the needed glucose, reduces the amount of the energy demanding muscle. Also the pre-workout drinks containing carbs raise blood insulin levels. Insulin promotes carb usage for energy and inhibits the fat (and cortisol). Ofc the longer our training session lasts, insulin clears out and cortisol comes in. And cortisol promotes gluconeogenesis. This is of course applied to heavy anaerobic work (weights), things are a bit different when the the workout intensity is kept at a lower level i.e. cardio
[QUOTE=Opies;283700101]fat cells != fat. Fat cells are what hold the actual fat. It does count as anabolism because glucose is made into fat (anabolic) and I think stored fat is different than free fatty acids (this might be false)[/QUOTE]
Yes correct of course storing fat is being anabolic.
[QUOTE=PonyTail;283727651]You have to understand that body doesn't know you want to be big, and shredded. Its primary goal is to keep all vital functions in normal order. If its satisfied with the current state of affairs its goal is gonna be to try and keep itself in that state, be it 7%BF or 20%. The term is called homeostasis. So now why does it use muscle over fat during excessive workout, when the glycogen reserves are down or no existing. Well if we remember the homeostasis, which we could simply name plain survival, a lot of muscle tends to use a lot of energy. Remember that if we do know that are next meal is in an hour the body does not. Its goal being only to adapt and survive, degrading muscle to aminos and doing the gluconeogenesis provides the needed glucose, reduces the amount of the energy demanding muscle. Also the pre-workout drinks containing carbs raise blood insulin levels. Insulin promotes carb usage for energy and inhibits the fat (and cortisol). Ofc the longer our training session lasts, insulin clears out and cortisol comes in. And cortisol promotes gluconeogenesis. This is of course applied to heavy anaerobic work (weights), things are a bit different when the the workout intensity is kept at a lower level i.e. cardio[/QUOTE]
I understand all of that. I'm simply saying working out for an hour is not adequate stimulus to cause catabolism of muscle tissue. It takes more than 1 workout to deplete glycogen, and there is no reason to break down muscle for amino acids when there are already amino acids in the blood stream via high protein diet, and more importantly PreWO nutrition.
[QUOTE=Opies;283728081]I understand all of that. I'm simply saying working out for an hour is not adequate stimulus to cause catabolism of muscle tissue. It takes more than 1 workout to deplete glycogen, and there is no reason to break down muscle for amino acids when there are already amino acids in the blood stream via high protein diet, and more importantly PreWO nutrition.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, you're not getting the point. The state of the bloodstream as u name it is ideal. There wont be much catabolism of the muscle if the amino level is constant and sufficient. So there's nothing much to discus there. There is still an option that you're not consuming all the essential amino acids through your protein intake sources. So if there's not enough lets say lysine in the bloodstream, the body still has to degrade its own protein to repair the damage made to muscle tissue during workout.
[QUOTE=PonyTail;283729261]Hmm, you're not getting the point. The state of the bloodstream as u name it is ideal. There wont be much catabolism of the muscle if the amino level is constant and sufficient. So there's nothing much to discus there. There is still an option that you're not consuming all the essential amino acids through your protein intake sources. So if there's not enough lets say lysine in the bloodstream, the body still has to degrade its own protein to repair the damage made to muscle tissue during workout.[/QUOTE]
Yes but this is a bodybuilding website, as you can see in the original post I'm taking about people here. I'm assuming these people are on a high protein diet, and are using pre and post workout nutrition. My entire point, is that under these assumptions, a workout will induce a catabolic state, but it will not cause muscle breakdown. The problem is that everyone seems to assume that being in a catabolic state = muscle breakdown, when that isn't true.
[QUOTE=Opies;283740291]Yes but this is a bodybuilding website, as you can see in the original post I'm taking about people here. I'm assuming these people are on a high protein diet, and are using pre and post workout nutrition. My entire point, is that under these assumptions, a workout will induce a catabolic state, but it will not cause muscle breakdown. The problem is that everyone seems to assume that being in a catabolic state = muscle breakdown, when that isn't true.[/QUOTE]
Assumption is the mother of all screw ups :D But in theory you're right, and in theory you're not right... Hey I'm in contradiction with myself wohoo :D Well there will always be cortisol in our blood, as there will always be insulin and gazillion other factors. True anabolic and true catabolic states are impossible. We can do what is in our power to keep the ratio high in the anabolic part of the scale, and a high protein diet, pre/post nutriton is the way to go.
you dont have to worry about being catabolic, unless you run a marathon the second you wake up... youll be catabolic then b/c your glycogen stores are low, yes youll burn fat, but muscle as well.