Anyone do "L-lateral raises" ?

Does anyone else do these? i gave these a go a few days ago and personally i find them pretty good. lots of people will argue that the exercises work exactly the same, because "more weight-short lever" is the same as "less weight-long lever", but im not sure if agree 100%.

While i find standing lateral raises hit my medial delts, they tend to hit more of the medial/rear delt tie-in. when i was doing these "L" laterals, it felt like the stress was placed more directly onto the whole of the medial delt, and hitting an area closer to the anterior delt, which i dont get with standard laterals. this may be just be because of technique when im using the bent elbow, but im liking them all the same.

the only thing is, by the second or third set your form is trying to break because of the weight you have to support with the bent elbow. anyone else find it a bit challenging to keep form on these?

Cheers.

Bump.

I Have had the exact oppostive experience. I used to do "L" type for a long time. I feel that because the arm is bent and the weight is considerably infront of the elbow that it will emphasize more the more anterior middle delt fibers and sometimes some of the anterior deltoid. I find that going pretty much arm straight and some tweaks I can hit the middle delt and the more anterior fibers of the middle delt harder. Regardless, it is insanely hard to generalize because even though we might be doing the same variation, I might be doing it considerably different than you. Whatever you are feeling is the best gauge to what you are hitting.


Here you can see what I am mean with multiple heads within the middle deltoid

The one in the right
[img]http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/ap/saladin/saladin3eppt/saladin3eppt/chapt10_lecture_files/slide0006_image035.gif[/img]



This is why I like to do at least two midle delt type movements, make sure that I am hitting it through thoroughly

[QUOTE=Xuaxace;1044833513]This is why I like to do at least two midle delt type movements, make sure that I am hitting it through thoroughly[/QUOTE]

Good solid post. I agree with everything you said there. I only quoted the last bit because I share the same thoughts and plan on doing the same thing. Because I cant shoulder press due to an ongoing tricep injury, I've had to up the volume and sets on the laterals.

One day ill do x4 sets of standing laterals to target the medial/rear delt tie-in. And another day ill do x4 sets of L-laterals to target the medial/anterior area. Incline laterals are also a worthy substitute for hitting the same area.

Thanks for the reply. Repped.
EDIT: can't seem to rep on my phone. Will rep later

[QUOTE=Curlers;1044843383]Good solid post. I agree with everything you said there. I only quoted the last bit because I share the same thoughts and plan on doing the same thing. Because I cant shoulder press due to an ongoing tricep injury, I've had to up the volume and sets on the laterals.

One day ill do x4 sets of standing laterals to target the medial/rear delt tie-in. And another day ill do x4 sets of L-laterals to target the medial/anterior area. Incline laterals are also a worthy substitute for hitting the same area.

Thanks for the reply. Repped.[/QUOTE]

I do a bit of a bent db raise (more front middle delt fibers) and then some cable lateraal raises with a form more focused on the posterior middle delt fibers. Also do some DB upright rows which I guess can be a bit similar to L type raise in a way. Obiously this in adition to presses and rear delt rows.

I definitely bang a lot of volume, but delts is a muscle group that takes it rather well, and I have definitely seen a lot of improvement banging on a lot of sets with a few different variations. All about experimentation I guess :)

so if i understund(i am 14 and i now learn english) L lateral raises works beter the anterior head of shoudler thah the regular lateral raises?
does the L lateral raises put less stress in the rotaror cuff? do you think it is a good exercise?

[QUOTE=nikoslimpe;1044847983]so if i understund(i am 14 and i now learn english) L lateral raises works beter the anterior head of shoudler thah the regular lateral raises?
does the L lateral raises put less stress in the rotaror cuff? do you think it is a good exercise?[/QUOTE]


not quite what I was going for, for simplicity sake, L shape raises hit the middle delt. Just a modification that decreases the lever (distance between the head of the humerous and the weight compared to a straight arm raise. Thus allowing more weight to be lifted.

I was just arguing that because the deltoid has more than one bundle of muscle within a specific head (Say the middle delt), that different variations of a lateral raise might put more emphasis on the anterior or posterior fibers of the middle deltoid, obiusly this entirely depends on the execution of the movement.

I have never though of the lateral raise to be a movement that strains any rotator cuff in particular but if you have a RC injury there will be most likely some problems when performing the movement. Because the L lateral raise uses more weight, I would think that it would be harder on the RC if you did have a problem.

[QUOTE=Xuaxace;1044849933]not quite what I was going for, for simplicity sake, L shape raises hit the middle delt. Just a modification that decreases the lever (distance between the head of the humerous and the weight compared to a straight arm raise. Thus allowing more weight to be lifted.

I was just arguing that because the deltoid has more than one bundle of muscle within a specific head (Say the middle delt), that different variations of a lateral raise might put more emphasis on the anterior or posterior fibers of the middle deltoid, obiusly this entirely depends on the execution of the movement.

I have never though of the lateral raise to be a movement that strains any rotator cuff in particular but if you have a RC injury there will be most likely some problems when performing the movement. Because the L lateral raise uses more weight, I would think that it would be harder on the RC if you did have a problem.[/QUOTE]

i understund my friend!thanks..no i have not rotaror cuff problem... upright rows you think that put rotaror cuff pain?i have no pain during this exercise so i will contnue this exercise.or no?.can you answer and in my post in my thread?thanks...

i have done them before and they are ok....i alternate between them and regular lateral raises

[QUOTE=nikoslimpe;1044851333]i understund my friend!thanks..no i have not rotaror cuff problem... upright rows you think that put rotaror cuff pain?i have no pain during this exercise so i will contnue this exercise.or no?.can you answer and in my post in my thread?thanks...[/QUOTE]

barbell upright rows can most definitely be a movement that can cause problems. I actually was not able to perform them without elbow pain. Since then I moved into dumbbell upright rows which allow for a very free range of motion, no pain since then.

If you have no pain when doing barbell upright rows, you may keep doing it.

Only positive about the 90 degree bent arm lateral raises is that you can use heavier weights but I find them to be inferior to straight arm lateral side raises. The lateral side raise machine however that requires your arms to be bent at 90 degrees however, that actually does hit your delts well but it's more to do with the way those machines are designed (they pretty much completely isolate the side delts).

[QUOTE=kissdadookie;1044885023]Only positive about the 90 degree bent arm lateral raises is that you can use heavier weights but I find them to be inferior to straight arm lateral side raises. The lateral side raise machine however that requires your arms to be bent at 90 degrees however, that actually does hit your delts well but it's more to do with the way those machines are designed (they pretty much completely isolate the side delts).[/QUOTE]

i wish the gym i went to had one of those machines. i would join back just for that. i cant shoulder press due to a tricep injury, so if i can find any machine or bit of training equipment to bulk my delts out, then im all for it.

i did make a thread about this old training device called the 'Deltforce'. it looks like a gimmick, but its basically a free weight version of the machine your talking about. There was a board member called DiamondDelts who vouched for its effectiveness and was wide as fuark, had pictures to prove it aswell..
i was looking for one for awhile, it basically allows you to do heavy L-laterals without the need to worry about grip / form.
heres what the device looks like: [img]http://deltforce.com/images/head_big.jpg[/img]
it looks awful, ill admit that myself.. the product has been discontinued and rare these days. but earlier on today, my mother suggested that i try using my plate loaded gripper, its like the one bruce lee use to use.. anyway, turns out it works pretty well! it hit my medial delts like no regular laterals have. i had a great pump and felt as wide as the door.

heres what i used instead. its not the exact same one but you could use this model just the same:[img]http://www.biggerfasterstronger.com/uploads/email_image/main-1-02-22-10.jpg[/img]
i know not everyone owns one of these, but if you do and its small enough, it works quite well for this purpose. just putting that out there for anyone interested.

[QUOTE=Curlers;1044908263]deltforce device[/QUOTE]
The elbow placement of the load with that device is indeed effective, easy on the shoulder joint, and allows heavier loads. Though, it's very easy to accomplish the exact same placement by holding a DB in the "crook" of your elbow. Grab a DB pair, stand them on top of a preacher bench, reach around and trap one w/ inner elbow, then same w/ the other. Return to top of preacher bench when finished.

You can also try upright rows with a wider grip or if using db's, instead of your hands ending below your chin at the top of the movement, have them spread so that at the top of the movement they are by your armpits, this isolates the delts and traps.

Lastly, yup, the machines I'm talking about is basically a machine version of that crazy looking delt device you've pointed out. Ha ha.

[QUOTE=SkydogGinsberg;1044921603]The elbow placement of the load with that device is indeed effective, easy on the shoulder joint, and allows heavier loads. Though, it's very easy to accomplish the exact same placement by holding a DB in the "crook" of your elbow. Grab a DB pair, stand them on top of a preacher bench, reach around and trap one w/ inner elbow, then same w/ the other. Return to top of preacher bench when finished.[/QUOTE]

ive tried that before, but the DBs i own dont seem to sit too well in the crook of my elbow. at the minute i prefer using this pate loaded gripper, i like the set-up and how the weight is on the outside of the arm.

[QUOTE=kissdadookie;1044922093]You can also try upright rows with a wider grip or if using db's, instead of your hands ending below your chin at the top of the movement, have them spread so that at the top of the movement they are by your armpits, this isolates the delts and traps.

Lastly, yup, the machines I'm talking about is basically a machine version of that crazy looking delt device you've pointed out. Ha ha.[/QUOTE]

ive tried upright rows many different times, but no matter where i place my hands, i ALWAYS end up with my shoulders clicking and popping.

[QUOTE=Curlers;1044928193]ive tried upright rows many different times, but no matter where i place my hands, i ALWAYS end up with my shoulders clicking and popping.[/QUOTE]

Any pain or discomfort and if so, which area of the shoulder?

Discomfort, but i can tell it will lead to pain if i carry on. ive tried close grip and wide / different bars / forward lean and so on.. so ive bagged that exercise. it werent doing me any favours.

[QUOTE=Curlers;1044941743]Discomfort, but i can tell it will lead to pain if i carry on. ive tried close grip and wide / different bars / forward lean and so on.. so ive bagged that exercise. it werent doing me any favours.[/QUOTE]

Any other exercises causing discomfort? Skull crushers maybe?

Other suggestion would be to go lighter on the weight and work up. Also make sure to hit the rear delts as well. Could be a muscle imbalance, who knows. For the longest time I had thought I had a knee problem, worked through it with weighted squats and weighted extensions with good form and the knee issue disappeared (use to pop, give me pain going down the stairs, just not a good situation).

Basically L-Raises will allow you to use more weight, This doesn't mean that it will be more effective. Although you are using more weight during L-Raises this is because the weight is closer to your shoulder joint thus easier leverage and shorter arc/ROM which reduce the load of work required by the deltoids.
From experience, people who use L-Raises tend to use moment to execute the movement causing their lateral delt to do very little work. Lateral raises performed with a slight elbow bent and weight in-line with the lateral delt makes it harder to cheat and get your medial delt to actually do work.

do you think that upright row with very wide? grip puts more pressure in rottaror cuffvthan qithvnormal or close grip?

[QUOTE=Curlers;1044928193]ive tried upright rows many different times, but no matter where i place my hands, i ALWAYS end up with my shoulders clicking and popping.[/QUOTE]

that exercise isn't for everyone. If L lateral is working for you pretty well, don't think about performing other ones.