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[QUOTE=Smelly bull;1033080353]Agree 100%....
For the instinctive guys, what do you consider instinctive? The rep scheme? What body part to work on for the day? Exercises? Weights?[/QUOTE]
All of the above^^, here is my "instinctive" calf day
seated calf raises 4 sets 6 plates to failure on each set
hack squat toe raises 4 sets Phil Heath style 15's ( 5 slow/5 fast 5 slow) 5 plates up to 8
standing raises 4 sets Heath Style 15's (stack)
body weight on a block toe raises 4 sets to failure
So depending on my energy(stressful day/easy day) the above 16 sets may be cut down to 10/12 or the Heath style reps may be changed to regular standard reps(easier). The goal is the above 16, however many variables ( a 4 mile run) may change the above plan, thus the "instinctive" label.
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I have found the good ole plain linear progression of reps and weight works the best for me. As long as I'm going up even one pound or a rep every week or so I'm happy. Undulating periodization.
[url]http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/set_a_pr_every_day[/url]
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[QUOTE=Smelly bull;1033080353]Agree 100%....
For the instinctive guys, what do you consider instinctive? The rep scheme? What body part to work on for the day? Exercises? Weights?[/QUOTE]
hmm, let me put it this way. My workouts have a plan and a goal but certain aspects are subject to change. I'll use yesterdays squat workout as an example.
My main goal yesterday was to add is some good mornings and really focus on my form for those and my RDL's. I started off with my deep squats, pausing at the bottom and was just sailing through. When I get to 365, the set was so easy that I figured I'd go for a new PR (which wasn't planned). My mistake was jumping 50 pounds from 365 to 415 and next time I'll split the difference with a single at 390 so the additional weight doesn't surprise me like it did yesterday. Live and learn.
From there I moved on to my good mornings which went alright, I still don't have the feel for these yet. Then I finished up with some lighter RDL's comparing myself to this Rippetoe tutorial I found on Youtube.
Power Pause Squats- 135x3, 225x3, 245x3, 275x3, 295x3, 315x3, 345x2, 365x2, 415xfail
Good Mornings- barx5, 95x5, 135x5, 135x5, 135x5 (still trying to get the feel for these down)
RDL- 200x5, 200x5, 200x5
I never did get around to doing any calf raises like I normally do but it's no big deal, I'll hit my calves while doing my leg press on Saturday.
I guess to me 'instinctive training' means I'm not following a plan where I plug in my numbers and the program tells me to do X number of sets with Y amount of weight on Z days. Like the 5/3/1 does. I've done 5/3/1 and consider it to be a great program, I just think there's more than one way to skin a cat.
This was the last cycle I started of the 5/3/1 back on 02-25-2012:
[img]http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/flintdb68/BB%20Progress/currentstats2-18-12-2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/flintdb68/BB%20Progress/3rdcycle531-2.jpg[/img]
It's pretty much exactly 1 year later and I've been able to add 88lbs since and the most disappointing would be my squats. But I stopped squatting almost entirely for a few months after thinking I had a stroke doing high reps for that widow maker comp. Luckily it was just high blood pressure.
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Thanks guys for all the responses.
I am convinced (More then ever) that a structured plan is the best route for my goals. (as strength and increasing it is of importance to me).
I found something that might fit me quite well. It is wendlers "Big but Boring". Basically a 5/3/1 for your main compounds and then a pyramiding 5 sets of 10 of secondary exercises. (the percentages of 1rm going up every month).
A quick scan makes the program look like something I can get excited about. If I can see some the strength increases these programs have generated for others, I think it will be pretty remarkable as I consider myself to be in a high state of train right now.
There is also one other program I am looking at. I am waiting on the details before I decide. I have a deload all next week anyway. Family is going to Disney! The walking should re-hab my leg good....and the rest will be good for the joints.
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[QUOTE=Smelly bull;1033080353]Agree 100%....
For the instinctive guys, what do you consider instinctive? The rep scheme? What body part to work on for the day? Exercises? Weights?[/QUOTE]
I personally always know what body parts I'm working and know the compound I'll lead with that day. I don't know exact weights I will use, but focus on continually trending up in strength on my primary compound by looking at my top sets for that compound. Work up to heavy triples. Only compound that is different is DLs. If I find a gym that'll let me DL again, then I work mostly in singles/doubles and some triples. Almost never go above 5 reps for DL. After, I go more by feel. Have a number of sets that I won't go under, but can go for more if I'm feeling good. Have a general template for most workouts in terms of things I do, but they may vary a little. When cutting, I allow for strength progression to be slower, especially dependent on the macros and deficit that I'm currently sitting at. When bulking, I pretty much require constant weekly strength progression even if that is a small progression - microplate added for top set, extra rep on heaviest set, the exact progression will kind of depend on how my previous work out ended. If I only got 1 rep for my heaviest set the week before, then the next week I'll focus on getting it for a double or triple. If I got a solid triple the week before, then I'll bump weight for the heaviest. That's another part of where I work intuitively.
Tbh, it has worked well for me, even with regards to strength. My focus is less on strength currently, but I still value it. In my first year of serious lifting, I had a 385 bench, 585 DL(should've been 600, but got banned from DLing over 405 since they require you to only use bumper plates and only have 45s), and a 405 squat. While those number are puny comparatively to real strength athletes, I was happy with my first year. When I start back to bulking, I will start re-incorporating more focus on my Big 3. Still mulling over programming in my head, but considering high volume/high intensity day devoted to each of the big 3 with some added fluff after, then a full day focused on hypertrophy. Something like this:
Back/bi fluff
Bench focus(10-15 sets)/chest/tri fluff
Squat focus(10-15 sets)/legs/shoulder fluff
Off
DL focus(10-15 sets)/back/bi fluff
Chest/tri fluff
Legs/shoulder fluff
Repeat
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[QUOTE=induced_drag;1032326543]First off, most that know me, know that I am very regimented with my training (as well as nutrition). I plan all my workouts. Target reps for each set and weight...ect I demand progression (as long as I am in the right stage of my diet) and for the most part, I always get it.
But now two years into training like this, I am wondering if I need to re-think this. I have gotten to the point where I am moving decent weights in my major compounds. The good part about my progression scheme is I always DEMAND progress. My mind refuses to accept not making progress and I just make the lifts like I am supposed to. But this is coming at a cost. Even though I still only do 3 workouts a week, I am getting run-down all the time. I am achy and not able to recover like I was when the weights were lighter. (eg: Benching 315x10 is a lot tougher on you then 225x10.) Sure they say weight is relative, ...but I am finding that recovery from heavier lifts is now taking me longer to do properly.
Also with these regimented workouts, I will run myself into a hole because I demand the performance in the gym. I dont care if my body tells me it does not want to lift it, I will decided it has to be done and do it. This is all coming at a cost like I said. I spent the last 3 days in bed sick totally run down. Went to the chiro today with a pulled hip flexor...etc.
I am thinking about adopting a more "instinctive" form of training. I can still focus on my big 3...but instead of working progression every workout, just do what I feel I need. Maybe change up exercises here and there....play around a little. I dont think this is something a rookie could do, but I think I have enough experience in the gym where I could see good results out of this. It would allow me to push myself right up to the line.....but not over. (which I have been doing lately)
So any guys out there [b]With good experience in the gym[/b] (either powerlifting or bodybuilding), do a instinctive routine? Has it worked well?. How was progress on it?. Did it allow you to heal up nagging injuries...etc.
I would love to hear some guys thoughts on this.[/QUOTE]
I think once you have a good foundation of experience after a few years there is nothing wrong with instinctive training. The coaches I worked with as a strength coach used to fight with me because I didn't plan out workouts months in advance. I used to make my workouts for my athletes fresh each day often on the spot. The reason why was because you need to take into account each day how the athletes feel, what they did the day before, what else is going on in their life. Just because its heavy squat day in your calendar that you made 5 months ago doesn't automatically mean heavy squats is a great idea today. What if your knees hurt? What if last night you got 2 hours sleep?
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[QUOTE=azstrengthcoach;1033280173]I think once you have a good foundation of experience after a few years there is nothing wrong with instinctive training. The coaches I worked with as a strength coach used to fight with me because I didn't plan out workouts months in advance. I used to make my workouts for my athletes fresh each day often on the spot. The reason why was because you need to take into account each day how the athletes feel, what they did the day before, what else is going on in their life. Just because its heavy squat day in your calendar that you made 5 months ago doesn't automatically mean heavy squats is a great idea today. What if your knees hurt? What if last night you got 2 hours sleep?[/QUOTE]
YES!! This is pretty much my philosophy as well.
For example, it's Saturday at 9AM. Emily shows up. My plan is to set a C&J PR because last week she set a 10-lb PR on her front squats. So I want to push her today.
Me: How are you, Emily? How's school? How are your mom and dad?
Emily:I'm good. My basketball team won last night. My legs are beat. And, btw, I have softball practice at 5:00 PM today because my coach rescheduled.
Me: No sweat. Today we're gonna do some technique work. We're gonna focus on speed under the bar. Then the last 15 minutes we'll do some prehab and stretches.
That's more or less my version of instinctive when I train my young athletes.
And of course, I could go the other way and trick Emily into thinking we're only gonna approach 1 rep max, but in reality we're gonna set a PR..
A basic plan is still required, but I think just like anything else in life, common sense must be exercised.
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[QUOTE=NorwichGrad;1033285333]YES!! This is pretty much my philosophy as well.
For example, it's Saturday at 9AM. Emily shows up. My plan is to set a C&J PR because last week she set a 10-lb PR on her front squats. So I want to push her today.
Me: How are you, Emily? How's school? How are your mom and dad?
Emily:I'm good. My basketball team won last night. My legs are beat. And, btw, I have softball practice at 5:00 PM today because my coach rescheduled.
Me: No sweat. Today we're gonna do some technique work. We're gonna focus on speed under the bar. Then the last 15 minutes we'll do some prehab and stretches.
That's more or less my version of instinctive when I train my young athletes.
And of course, I could go the other way and trick Emily into thinking we're only gonna approach 1 rep max, but in reality we're gonna set a PR..
A basic plan is still required, but I think just like anything else in life, common sense must be exercised.[/QUOTE]
Exactly
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Just bumping this thread and giving an update on the direction I am choosing going forward.
I am going to for the first time try a 5/3/1 program (with a bodybuilding twist) Wendler calls it "big but boring"
Basically you do your accessory work in 5 sets of 10 with 50-70% 1rm.
I did my first workout tonight and it was strange not to take a set to failure. I will hold out some good hopes....and hopefully the more power based training will benefit me.
will update
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ID,
I actually mentioned your name in the Chinese system thread I started. Their system is pretty instinctive.
Your plan is good, though. Work that volume.